How sharp ?

[Alexis1234]

I apologize if this has been covered already- I didn't run across it.  How sharp is sharp enough for a round/ head knife? Yesterday, my knife  chattered/slipped and I ended up with a fairly serious injury while cutting horribly tanned patent leather... I swear it's because the knife wasn't sharp enough. My husband thinks otherwise.   When is it sharp enough and how do you gauge it?  I'm still learning. Thanks for any input.

[Webicons]

When you “think” it’s sharp then it’s not sharp enough.  You need to know that it’s scary sharp.  Sharp enough to slice through a piece of paper without grabbing at all. 

I find difficulty getting a head knife sharp enough to be functional (which is why I choose to use Japanese style knives) but it can and is often done well.  

I’m sure others will chime in and there are quite a number of YouTube videos on the subject. I find that Patience and stropping are the key. 

[Samalan]

the key to sharpening is keep your angels consistent and correct once you have that if the steel is good you should get 8 to 10 stops be four you need to go back to the stone  for a head knife the stone should take no more than two minutes and the same for stropping don't lift  the handle of the knife or you will kill the edge .  all this in my humble opinion . 

[YinTx]

Good steel shouldn't need a stone for a long long time between strops.  As someone said, it should be really really sharp.  Scary sharp is actually what you should refer to a dull knife as.  Dull knives are scary, because they tend to cause injuries.  To give you an idea, I tend to sharpen X-Acto and razor blades before I use them for leather work, because they are too dull.  Never test a very sharp knife to see if it will shave you - if it is sharp enough, it will as easily cut you as shave you.  The paper test is a decent one, - knife should slide through paper without snagging or hanging, with a very clean cut and clean sound as it goes through.  Not quite sharp enough requires a bit of a "sliding" action to go through the leather, a proper sharp one will "push" cut through the paper and change directions easily (ie, you should be able to cut an "S" curve through the paper just by pushing it).

No matter what, always keep your person and all bits of your person behind the blade.   This way, any slip or snag and you are pushing away from yourself, not towards a finger, arm, body, etc.  Hope you heal soon.

Although in reference to kitchen knifes, Burrfection has some youtube videos showing decent sharpness on knifes, and demonstrates paper cutting as discussed above.  You can compare your current knife status to one of his freshly sharpened ones and know if it is sharp enough.  Skip to 6 mins to see knives in action.  Then you can decide if it was the leather, the technique of cutting, or the sharpness of the blade.

YinTx

 

[bikermutt07]

My Knipshield's have yet to see a stone. I've had my french model for about 3 years now, and I only strop it. 

From what I can see with a magnifying glass is a proper sharp edge will not cast a glare. Meaning the absolute edge reflects 0 light. If you can see light glaring from the actual cutting edge it is too dull for leather work.

I can't remember who taught me that. It may have been Mr. Knipshield. 

Most people, myself included, had no idea that when they got into leather they would have to learn how to sharpen. It never crossed my mind in the first couple of months. But, if you want your stuff to look as clean as other's work it takes sharp sharp sharp tools. Not just your knives either. Stitch Groovers, end punches, just about everything needs to be sharpened.

Check out Al Stohlman's " Leather Tools". It is a fabulous reource.

And just accept it upfront, any mass production tools you buy will require finishing on the user end to get them to the final levels of sharpness. This is an industry standard to keep prices reasonable. 

When you buy custom tools, they should usually come in the level of sharpness required.

This is one of the differences between a 60 dollar knife and one that costs over 200.

And keep everything behind the blade. It's a push knife so push it away from all of you.

Good luck.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

It should shave hair from your arm and make virtually no noise when cutting.  I will say patent is not as easy to cut as other leathers.  The coating on the patent clings to knives, kind of like the plastic sheeting used for harness parts for Biothane harness.  

[zuludog]

There are loads of videos about sharpening on YouTube. Watch as many as you have the stamina for, they will all help to build up knowledge & experience. But if you want to narrow it down a bit Search for 'sharpening a round knife'  I think this one is good -

'How to sharpen your head knife for leather work' by JH Leather Although it's for a head knife aka a half round knife the same method can be used

Starting with a new knife I use a medium oilstone; a fine oilstone; a few grades of wet & dry paper between grits 600 & 2,000; then a strop. Lubricate the wet & dry paper with window cleaning spray.  Now that my knife is sharp I just use the strop most of the time

Tallow & powder, or Autosol will do the job but they're messy. Treat yourself to a proper bar of stropping/honing compound. I use Veritas 05M08.01. A 170g/6oz bar will last you ages  

As well as the cutting edge, hold the knife at a lower & flatter angle so that you polish the whole of the bevel & sides of the knife. This will help the blade to slide through the leather more easily

Edited March 8, 2019 by zuludog

[Alexis1234]

After reading the replies, my knife is no where near sharp enough!  I have stones and stropping compounds, but I struggle with getting the correct angle. 

[zuludog]

1 hour ago, Alexis1234 said:

After reading the replies, my knife is no where near sharp enough!  I have stones and stropping compounds, but I struggle with getting the correct angle. 

Sorry, but the best advice I can offer for that is to watch the videos and practice

As Webicons posted, a Japanese style leather knife is easier to sharpen as it has a straight edge and a more defined bevel. I use both and a Japanese knife will do most things; you soon get used to the asymmetric style. Search YouTube for their use, and Google for suppliers

[bikermutt07]

I broke down a few years ago and bought a Kalamazoo 1x42 belt grinder. It cost me about 300 dollars but it solved so so many problems.

Now all my stuff gets a convex edge and maintaining them is easy with the leather stropping belt.

I still don't use it on my high dollar leather knives though. I'm just worried I will mess them up.

But, all my tools and pocket knives, and work knives go to the Kalamazoo.

And yes, it is an investment for a hobbyist, but a good one to be sure. You will find yourself using it all the time for stuff. And it will outlast it's original purchaser.

I found the learning curve to be short for me. I just ran thru all the cheap pocket and kitchen knives until I had the process down.

Now I use it for wood chisels, strap cutters, all kinds of stuff.

[Samalan]

1 hour ago, Alexis1234 said:

After reading the replies, my knife is no where near sharp enough!  I have stones and stropping compounds, but I struggle with getting the correct angle. 

It's all in the angles. and you knowing that is most of the battle. learn those angles by eye and feel you don't want to be clamping in some jig every time sharpening should be fast and easy .

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

What kind of round knife do you have?  The steel is so poor in some, that you never would get it sharp enough.

[Samalan]

4 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

What kind of round knife do you have?  The steel is so poor in some, that you never would get it sharp enough.

CS Osborn when i flik it with my finger it rings like a bell and holds a good edge but it is an old one

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

4 hours ago, Samalan said:

CS Osborn when i flik it with my finger it rings like a bell and holds a good edge but it is an old one

Was actually asking the OP, but no matter, I like round knives no matter who owns them..   And that's why yours does hold a good edge, because it IS  an old one!  I have a newer CS Osborne that came in a lot of other stuff.  It has the prettiest sound when I tap it with my finger, but the knife itself isn't worth a damn.  Won't keep an edge.  My main everyday user is a CS also, but it's old.  It could hold an edge better, but the pattern is perfect for cutting parts.  I have a couple W. Rose knives. . .now those knives hold an edge!!  They are both bigger, wider knives than my CS, so I don't like them for pattern cutting, but they are awesome for skiving and straight cuts.  

[RayTada]

I use a Fiskars 65mm  Rotary Cutter instead of round knife. I got  mine from Jo Ann fabric using a 40% off coupon.  Also at Hobby Lobby, Michaels or any craft store.  Very sharp and blade is replaceable 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

25 minutes ago, RayTada said:

I use a Fiskars 65mm  Rotary Cutter instead of round knife. I got  mine from Jo Ann fabric using a 40% off coupon.  Also at Hobby Lobby, Michaels or any craft store.  Very sharp and blade is replaceable 

That mine be fine for lightweight and chrome tanned leather, but there's no way anyone could cut saddle parts out of 13/15oz saddle skirting or harness parts out of 10/12oz harness leather.  Round knives were designed to enable the user to cut the intricate pattern pieces used in saddle and harness making.  A round knife is also used to skive material away when needing to reduce the thickness.  There is no single other cutting tool that is as versatile and indispensable as a round knife to the saddle and harness maker.

[Rolandranch]

I know my knife is sharp enough when I see the blood on the ground before I realize I cut myself... Although it gets the point across, I don't suggest this method. 

[Alexis1234]

I have been using an old Osborn.  Originally, I bought a knife from Tandy, but found it was useless. 

4 hours ago, Rolandranch said:

I know my knife is sharp enough when I see the blood on the ground before I realize I cut myself... Although it gets the point across, I don't suggest this method. 

I never felt any pain from this cut, crazy but I didn't!

[TargetRockLeather]

I give mine a quick strop before and after each use. If you get in the habit of doing that it will stay sharp. Leather is really tough on a blade, so even if you get it as sharp as everyone is describing, it will quickly dull if you don't maintain it.

[bikermutt07]

Here are my two new real strops.

 

This one I had the idea for awhile back and finally made it last night. I used a piece of 8oz Herman Oak belly split down to 5 oz with grain side up and scuffed it with a wire brush. The pipe is a 2in. PVC. I'm sure I could have went with a smaller diameter but this is what I had. Seems to work like a charm.

[Alexis1234]

Pretty slick idea- that pipe for a curved knife

[jcuk]

Hi there

Can i ask what weight was the Patent leather is ?  The reason i ask is,  because if its is 1mm to 2.5  mm you maybe better off getting yourself a clicker knife with curved blade,  you can also get straight blades. Whenever i work  with Patent leather,  i mark and cut on the flesh side -  i know you can scratch the patent side but i cover my cutting board  with a piece of card (supermarket pizza base) wipe with sterile kitchen wife turn over  protects the Patent side when cutting, when punching do the same piece of card over my punching board. 

I do use my round knife on Patent leather its a  (Knipshield Texas Rosebud) dream to work with , had it over 2 years never had to sharpen it yet  - mainly work with Bridle leather and Harness leather, when i start work i strop and when its time to finish work strop again no matter if i have cut or skived one strap or a hundred it will get stropped again. Also have a C.S. Osborne round knife,  its a replacement for an older one which got damaged - great knife same can't be said for the new one can get it sharp, but it won't hold an edge so having constantly spending time on the knife not my work not good.

How sharp ?

This is my rule of thumb (sorry no pun intended)

https://youtu.be/J5GqItjXtRI   

 I do this for strap ends if i feel any drag or it does not feel how i know  it should be also skiving down strap ends if the knife starts to slip or slide it needs some more attention than just stropping. Also you may want to check out other videos on his site, how to use and sharpen a round knife etc... 

 Totally agree

17 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

That mine be fine for lightweight and chrome tanned leather, but there's no way anyone could cut saddle parts out of 13/15oz saddle skirting or harness parts out of 10/12oz harness leather.  Round knives were designed to enable the user to cut the intricate pattern pieces used in saddle and harness making.  A round knife is also used to skive material away when needing to reduce the thickness.  There is no single other cutting tool that is as versatile and indispensable as a round knife to the saddle and harness maker.

Hope this helps 

JCUK

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

5 hours ago, jcuk said:

Whenever i work  with Patent leather,  i mark and cut on the flesh side -  

I have done that also, mostly because it's easier to see a marking, but you are right, it is easier to cut!  When I cut patent, I always hope I have a clicker die for the job so I don't have to hand cut.

[niakulah]

On 3/8/2019 at 8:41 PM, bikermutt07 said:

I broke down a few years ago and bought a Kalamazoo 1x42 belt grinder. It cost me about 300 dollars but it solved so so many problems.

Now all my stuff gets a convex edge and maintaining them is easy with the leather stropping belt.

I still don't use it on my high dollar leather knives though. I'm just worried I will mess them up.

But, all my tools and pocket knives, and work knives go to the Kalamazoo.

And yes, it is an investment for a hobbyist, but a good one to be sure. You will find yourself using it all the time for stuff. And it will outlast it's original purchaser.

I found the learning curve to be short for me. I just ran thru all the cheap pocket and kitchen knives until I had the process down.

Now I use it for wood chisels, strap cutters, all kinds of stuff.

What grit belt do you use for your knives? I have access to a belt grinder at work but they use a 60 grit. Thinking of buying my own belts for it.

[bikermutt07]

4 hours ago, niakulah said:

What grit belt do you use for your knives? I have access to a belt grinder at work but they use a 60 grit. Thinking of buying my own belts for it.

I don't use it on my high dollar knives. Mostly out of fear of ruining them.

But all my less expensive knives and tools ( I'm doing a full set of Wuta half round chisels right now)

I start at 600 and go up from there to 1000. So, 600, 800, 1000, and then the leather strop belt.

After I do this once, I rarely have to go to less than 800, with good steel. 

My every day pocket knife that gets used all the time is a Kizer made out of VG-10. I rarely have to do more than strop it every couple of weeks. Like 2-4 weeks.

Every now and then I may use the 1000 grit on it.

If I am reprofiling something I may go down to 200 and work up from there.

Keep in mind I'm no expert. I was 41 before I even learned how to sharpen a knife. I'm only 45 now.