Anyone ever do an apprenticeship? Was it worth it?

[RockyAussie]

4 minutes ago, JC2019 said:

@RockyAussie  Thanks. I did have some questions that maybe you could help answer. Not sure what the best way to contact you is but here they are:

1) I've read that there are some pretty good prints for alligator belly these days. I thought about getting a few samples to see if I could even tell the difference between the real thing. Do you have any experience with these and any ideas of what leather makes the best prints  (maybe lambskin)? I have even seen some hornback made with cowhide listed on etsy. I want to be as educated about this trade as possible and I think knowing about prints could be important. 

2) I posted a thread about this but I was told by a leather distributor in the USA that it's pretty hard to get the shine / gloss back on a glazed alligator belly once it's gone  dull. I would love to try my hand at restoration even if just to learn more about the material. Any tips on this or ideas? 

Thanks for the offer on training, it is very generous. That will take me more planning and arranging for me. 

 

 

 

Contact in regards to how to methods and the like I do prefer in the open forum here as the answers from my point of view I would like all to see and comment if they wish on. Sometimes some method or other may be new to me and worth while learning as well.

If it is of a more personal nature you can contact me via a pm here or if you follow the link to my web page you can find my email contact there.

As to skins that make good crocodile prints, the best I have seen are done on cowhide veg tan and as far as lambskin that I personally would not touch. As yet I have never seen any tanning with a print or not that on sheep skin/lamb skin that has the durability for me to want to use it. I will not even use it in a bag liner. I love the feel of it sometimes but if I can tear it open I will not use it. Never found any that I have had in trouble ripping. Mostly I only ever use a croc print to test out a new product to design and to train a new staff on perhaps.

Regarding the loss of glaze on alligator or crocodile ...getting it back is hard. There are very long labor intensive ways to get a high glaze but in every day working things like always working on towels and pre polishing and a few other steps help to stop the shine loss in the first place. Generally if I am refurbishing a product I will carefully use a fine brush to touch up any wear patches and then a coating of Nivea cream if the skin is dry. After this has been absorbed for a day or 2 this is followed by a good polishing with a beeswax stick (HooCo wax) with a soft mop on a finishing machine. This will be a slightly less glassy look but to most people looks better and no longer susceptible to water drop marks etc.

You may find this post I did awhile ago of interest. It gives you some idea of the typical construction techniques in making a prototype here.-

 

[JC2019]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

Contact in regards to how to methods and the like I do prefer in the open forum here as the answers from my point of view I would like all to see and comment if they wish on. Sometimes some method or other may be new to me and worth while learning as well.

If it is of a more personal nature you can contact me via a pm here or if you follow the link to my web page you can find my email contact there.

As to skins that make good crocodile prints, the best I have seen are done on cowhide veg tan and as far as lambskin that I personally would not touch. As yet I have never seen any tanning with a print or not that on sheep skin/lamb skin that has the durability for me to want to use it. I will not even use it in a bag liner. I love the feel of it sometimes but if I can tear it open I will not use it. Never found any that I have had in trouble ripping. Mostly I only ever use a croc print to test out a new product to design and to train a new staff on perhaps.

Regarding the loss of glaze on alligator or crocodile ...getting it back is hard. There are very long labor intensive ways to get a high glaze but in every day working things like always working on towels and pre polishing and a few other steps help to stop the shine loss in the first place. Generally if I am refurbishing a product I will carefully use a fine brush to touch up any wear patches and then a coating of Nivea cream if the skin is dry. After this has been absorbed for a day or 2 this is followed by a good polishing with a beeswax stick (HooCo wax) with a soft mop on a finishing machine. This will be a slightly less glassy look but to most people looks better and no longer susceptible to water drop marks etc.

You may find this post I did awhile ago of interest. It gives you some idea of the typical construction techniques in making a prototype here.-

Awesome, thanks will check it out.   How hard is it to distinguish a good alligator print in veg tan from the real thing? I will need to find a supplier in the US and order some. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by JC2019

[RockyAussie]

29 minutes ago, JC2019 said:

 How hard is it to distinguish a good alligator print in veg tan from the real thing? I will need to find a supplier in the US and order some. 

For me toooo easy but on a made up article and to the general public it can be quite deceptive. NOTE : I would never try and make anyone believe that a print was the real thing and I would detest any one if they were to do so.

[JC2019]

12 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

For me toooo easy but on a made up article and to the general public it can be quite deceptive. NOTE : I would never try and make anyone believe that a print was the real thing and I would detest any one if they were to do so.

Agreed on the last point. My main fear is buying remnants or a hide and mistakenly telling someone it's something else it isn't. For example, even caiman vs crocodile vs alligator. At this point I barely learned how to identify hornback from the scale patterns at the top near the neck area ( but I could not do that with a belly). 

From what I understand:2x2x2  = alligator, 4x2 = crocodile, 4x4x2 = caiman. Caiman being the hardest to work with and sew through.

 

I am still early in my research and I know there are tons of different types of crocodilians out there from different parts of the world. 

 

Do you have any tips for differentiating the bellies of these 3? Especially alligator vs crocodile. I know Caiman is supposed to have small dots in the scales sometimes?

Edited April 28, 2019 by JC2019

[RockyAussie]

Most of my work is with Crocodylus porosus (Saltwater crocodile) which is the best and most expensive in the world to use. It has the advantage that it has mostly the least amount of bone in it after the tanning process. It has a lot more rectangular shape scale than the alligator which is normally quite square. Alligator skin is generally tanned on the smaller skins due to the underlying bone that makes the bigger skins difficult to work with. Some tanneries can do a reasonable job with it though. Caiman is a terrible skin to work with and has a lot of disadvantages due to it having a lot of bone just barely under the top layer of skin and this leads to quick wearing out on many products. The tanning of these also shows the difficulty of getting the dyes to absorb evenly due to the bones as well and that is one of the ways that it can be identified at a glance. They also very commonly have a dishy shape scale in comparison to the others. It would be best to visit a seller of these skins to get used to the touch feel and look of these different skins and if possible try them out which will teach you faster than anything else could. Some crosses with Siamensis and porosus are getting hard to tell the difference between now and the differences between where they are tanned are the main difference. That knowledge unfortunately comes from seeing and feeling. 

[jcuk]

16 hours ago, kgg said:

I do agree that an apprentice needs to be paid a fair wage if the end work is going to be sold or charged for, otherwise it is just schooling. All education whether by seminar, weekend courses, college, trade school or university the student pays to learn a skill.

Oh how times have changed from the indentured apprenticeships like my grandfather done. Seven years paying, yes paying, every week to learn under a master before being able to become one himself, he was a master tailor. We had other "tailors" in the family who he scuffed at not because their work wasn't decent but he considered them to be "factory" tailors. In his eyes they had to use pre-made patterns, etc. to produce a good end product rather then a being able to it from scratch with just the bolt of cloth in front of them.

kgg

 

I totally agree with this, sadly a lot of the techniques a being lost as time goes by. This is not just the case with tailors, its also other crafts and trades.There may come a day when a lot of these skills will get lost in the mists of time. Modern techniques have a place if they improve and understand upon what's gone before.

 

Too many people in todays world cut corners and costs which equals less quality and job satisfaction.

JCUK

15 hours ago, chrisash said:

For at least the first year the apprentice costs you money as they know nothing and take a lot of your time teaching the basics and correcting there mistakes

In the second year they can be trusted to help make the basic items for the master to finish off, the master still has to put time aside to teach new techniques and skills so maybe a 50/50 year

In the third year the apprentice is improving their skills and making the master some more money

At the end of the third year the apprentice is skilled and leaves the master and the overall training is balanced

Another point is that not all masters can teach or want to, they can show how to do something just like a video or book, but to actually teach, just like many youg school teachers, teaching and doing are not always the same thing

Also agree with this, especially the part about masters being good at their trade, but that doesn't mean they are good teachers/ communicators. This is a separate skill  - teaching and coaching. How many tops sportsmen have become top coaches in their field? Of course there is the odd exception but this is not the norm. 

JCUK

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by jcuk

[bikermutt07]

You may want to email Lisa Sorrell. She has an inlay overlay book that may cover exotics to a point. 

Then again, a trip down under to visit Brian may be the best investment one could ever make in leathercraft.

[kgg]

It is really nice to see Jc2019 reach out as he obviously has the want to reinvest in himself too enhance his abilities and hone that skill set to become the best leather-crafter he can. I agree with bikermutt07 a trip down under would be a great investment. Reinvestment in oneself through education and equipment to further a skill will always pay-off in the long run.

kgg 

[JC2019]

12 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Most of my work is with Crocodylus porosus (Saltwater crocodile) which is the best and most expensive in the world to use. It has the advantage that it has mostly the least amount of bone in it after the tanning process. It has a lot more rectangular shape scale than the alligator which is normally quite square. Alligator skin is generally tanned on the smaller skins due to the underlying bone that makes the bigger skins difficult to work with. Some tanneries can do a reasonable job with it though. Caiman is a terrible skin to work with and has a lot of disadvantages due to it having a lot of bone just barely under the top layer of skin and this leads to quick wearing out on many products. The tanning of these also shows the difficulty of getting the dyes to absorb evenly due to the bones as well and that is one of the ways that it can be identified at a glance. They also very commonly have a dishy shape scale in comparison to the others. It would be best to visit a seller of these skins to get used to the touch feel and look of these different skins and if possible try them out which will teach you faster than anything else could. Some crosses with Siamensis and porosus are getting hard to tell the difference between now and the differences between where they are tanned are the main difference. That knowledge unfortunately comes from seeing and feeling. 

Ah did not know. I was under the impression that it was always the alligator that was most desirable. 

Are there mainly two type of finishes? The glazed, almost plastic like feel and the matt, more supple? For exotics, particularly reptiles,  is there such a thing as "chromium" tanned, oil tanned, vegetable tanned, etc?

 

From what I can tell, glazed leather is used for things like bags and maybe even shoes? But not recommended for wallets? I assume it just doesn't bend nicely?

 

 

[RockyAussie]

10 minutes ago, JC2019 said:

Ah did not know. I was under the impression that it was always the alligator that was most desirable. 

Are there mainly two type of finishes? The glazed, almost plastic like feel and the matt, more supple? For exotics, particularly reptiles,  is there such a thing as "chromium" tanned, oil tanned, vegetable tanned, etc?

 

From what I can tell, glazed leather is used for things like bags and maybe even shoes? But not recommended for wallets? I assume it just doesn't bend nicely?

 

 

Traditionally crocodile was mostly veg tanned but many tanneries went on to doing a mix of chrome first followed by veg to make it faster but also enhance some of the properties in use. Most of the skins I have been given to use from France are Veg tanned and I find them harder and harder to work with when they are glazed.  The glazing process puts a lot of pressure and heat down into the leather as the glass or stone rubs over the skin. The Singapore tanneries mostly do the best tanning I have seen and worked with. They still get a fairly good highlight on the scale compared to ones that I used from Japan. There are various other finishes aside from Glaze and Matt and cost more generally. One I like is a semi glaze from the Chek Hong Tannery which has a beautiful feel and is very nice to skive and work with in general. They do many if not the most of the alligator skins in the world. Alligator is normally about half of the cost of Porosus and is normally a lot less desirable except that may be not so in the USA. I am not an expert in the marketing of these things as I get the skins sent to me from a lot off places and I just make up the product and they get it back. The skins all come with tags on saying what type of skin from where and generally what country it was tanned in. All these skins have to have permits to export, permits to reimport after tanning and re export blah blah blah. They sell me a bit when I want it but mostly I prefer to let them take all of those headaches. We do make wallets and purses and aplenty from glazed skin but I do have a preference myself to the matt as the skin is easier to look after and stays looking good longer.