AA3JW Report post Posted May 23, 2019 If I do not have actual Barge thinner, can I use acetone, or mineral spirits to thin it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/85867-contact-adhesives/ The MSDS for the Barge "universal" thinner says it is Methyl ethyl ketone.. So.."Mineral spirits" which is denatured alcohol..probably isn't going to work.. Acetone should should work, test some first..( the Barge website lists many products, you don't say which you have ) take all the usual precautions re flame , flash points, handling , eye protection etc..the vapours of acetone are bad for you..you do this at your own risk etc etc.. Btw..Methyl Ethyl Ketone is also know as Butanone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanone Read the wikipedia page..you may have some around but under another name ..look at what you have..then look up the MSDS..look for ( use the "find" control usually under "edit" in your pdf reader and type Methyl Ethyl Ketone..hit enter, if any solvent that you have is actually Butanone or Methyl Ethyl Ketone, it will find where it mentions it in the MSDS for what you have.. HTH :) Edited May 23, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted May 23, 2019 45 minutes ago, AA3JW said: If I do not have actual Barge thinner, can I use acetone, or mineral spirits to thin it? I found this on the web never used it. http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/m.e.k.-substitute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRV2 Report post Posted May 23, 2019 The correct solvent for regular Barge contact cement is Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK). You can purchase this in quart cans and larger at various hardware stores. A google search will turn them up for you. Note that this is the correct solvent only for Barge, no others, as they all use different stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) That MEK substitute ( Kleanstrip ) is ( according to it's MSDS ) Ethyl acetate..yes it would work for washing down and prepping polyester, melting or "welding" some plastics etc.. But, as a thinner for anything that is normally thinned with Butanone, not so good, it might well have a tendency to go somewhat "stringy"..depends what is in the "adhesive / glue / cement"..Acetone is better if you have no Butanone / MEK ..But Acetone will evaporate faster than Butanone.. I'm always amazed at what you can just walk in and buy in large ( ish ) quantities in the USA without having to sign a "poisons register" or otherwise leave a trace of who buys large amounts of things that can be mixed to go bang spectacularly..or as accelerants, or as solvents for things that can get you into trouble..France is similar.. :) Btw..Think of your local fire service..if you are keeping things that can go bang, or are dangerous around, let them know where you store the stuff*....that way..if you have a fire, they are forewarned, it can keep them from being injured or worse.. * I count ammunition as something to let them ( the fire service ) know about in case of a fire too..But not everyone does.. Edited May 23, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JLSleather Report post Posted May 23, 2019 How did you end up with Barge cement but not the Barge thinner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) How did you end up with Barge cement but not the Barge thinner? Boat Drinks ? :) Edited May 23, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AA3JW Report post Posted May 23, 2019 DUH? Sometimes I really do have Write-Only-Memory. 1 hour ago, JLSleather said: How did you end up with Barge cement but not the Barge thinner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AA3JW Report post Posted May 23, 2019 Thanks to all. I will check my local ace for some MEK. I have used it a lot over the years. 25 years in the military, we used it for almost everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikermutt07 Report post Posted May 24, 2019 Just for clarification, @mikesc Mineral Turpentine, or White Spirit, like denatured alcohol is also a solvent. However it is a different chemical mix of hydrocarbons and is distilled from petroleum, giving it slightly different chemical properties, and a less sustainable starting point. The primary use of MineralTurpentine is as a Paint Thinner.Aug 23, 2015 Denatured Alcohol Uses (or Methylated Spirits) | Ecostalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) Mineral spirits in Europe is denatured alcohol or methylated spirits, which is a totally different molecular mixture ( compound ) from white spirit.. Denatured alcohol..(is ethanol mixed with other things to stop people from drinking it as "untaxed alcohol ) ..Denatured alcohol in Europe is near enough pure alcohol..in the USA and Canada is can be only around the 50% alcohol..the other ingredients ( in the USA and Canada it contains methanol ) mean it will probably kill you.. But the US and Canada calls white spirit mineral spirit..white spirit is actually a naptha..a petroleum distillate..a substitute for turpentine..it is a kind of light kerosine. Two countries ( three including Canada which follows US practice fro these solvents ) divided by a common language.. re ecotalk from whom you quoted in bold, large type and even multicoloured type..all of that does not detract from them being wrong.. ecostalk is incorrect in their definition of denatured alcohol in their paragraph immediately above the one you quoted ..they say .. "Denatured Alcohol is a combination of two substances: Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol, which is basically drinking alcohol, and an additive chemical." Note the "contains two substances"..they then go on to mention that it also contains dyes ( which means that obviously it has more than two substances, unless dyes are not substances, which they indeed are ) .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol note the section "formulations"..they ( what goes into denatured alcohol ) vary between the USA and Europe..but..in each case, there are more than two substances..Websites such as ecotalk are set up to get ad money ecotalk also says "Denatured alcohol can be used as a fuel for oil heaters which burn more cleanly than other traditional fossil fuels. The flame burns so cleanly that it is almost clear, letting off very little smoke and visible carcinogens into the air." . "Visible carcinogens ? ..What difference to a cell that may be triggered into cancerous activity does it make if the carcinogens are visible, or invisible..! They also do not check their supposedly expert advice for basic typos which their spell checker would flag..in a reply by them in their comments "it should be fine to use diluted mehtylated spirits for light cleaning" ..I make typos( more than most because my system is not in English, so it underlines everything, or nothing ) ..but I go back and correct them..especially if they are chemical names. Their website is written by non experts, who do not have qualifications in chemistry, ..Mine ( University degree..Chemistry* ..and some others in Art..chemistry is very useful for an art restorer ) was obtained in 1976.. Their website is designed primarily to get search engines to rank them highly on their supposed "expertise" and when you click through to them from SERPs, you are supposed to click on their ads "provided by Google"..their ad code is "ca-pub-8092381479390639", they are also an Amazon affiliate..The site runs on wordpress with various "plugins" and is running a variant of woo commerce..It is what SEOs call an MFA..( made for adsense ) no expertise required ..merely copy and paste ( with an occasional "re-spin" ) what they find elsewhere.. The author says that they are a product designer.. They also do not present me with a GDPR notice ( which they must, by law, to any visitors from the EU ) when I arrive at the site..despite them claiming to respect "privacy"..Google will not allow one to run adsense if one does not have a"privacy policy page"..Their privacy policy is untruthful, they say "This website does not share any personal information with third parties."..It does..it shares PII ( personally identifiable information ) with both Google and Amazon .. So..they do not tell the truth, they are an MFA, ( despite them saying that the site is for them "to learn" ) and they do not know what they are talking about, their content ( taken from elsewhere ) is only designed for you to click out from the site as fast as you can once you have arrived there, in order to earn them money from the adsense or affiliate click. Wikipedia is a better source of information about chemistry..despite the fact that anyone can edit it, it is also watched over by people with qualifications and expertise in the relevant fields.. Chemical formula are the same in any language..like mathematical equations, what we call ( in layman's terms ) the chemicals, can and does, vary so much around the world ( even when using the same language ) that "for example" if you "dilute / thin", with "mineral spirits", your "mineral spirits" will likely not be exactly the same as mine, nor anyone who lives in another country..and this "international" site, leatherworker.net does have visitors and members from many countries. * I've mentioned them before here as many of us have skills , experience or qualifications that are relevant to many subjects that come up..Degrees do not mean that one "knows it all", but on very technical subjects like chemistry and many others, they do indicate that others ( experts in the field ) have examined ones knowledge and / or ability and said yes they do know what they are talking about on that and related subjects..A bit like driving tests, unless one has a licence for motorcycles, "stick shift" and articulated trucks ( the big ones ) ..one should not make a website about how to drive them.. btw..it could be that "mineral spirits" is not the current term in the UK..I haven't bought any there for over three decades..here we call methylated spirits "alcool à bruler" and "white spirit" ( what you call "mineral spirits" ) is "white spirit"..you'd expect it to be spirit blanc or spirit blanche ( depending on if they decide it is masculin or feminine ..male or female** ) ..but no despite being France and supposedly avoiding using English words..They use the English words..although there are at least 5 kinds of "white spirit" available all of which have other names too :) ** Do not ask me or any French person why something inanimate is male or female..there is no reason, it just is..and sometimes it changes , depending upon if you have more than one of them, and where you are.. Edited May 24, 2019 by mikesc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JLSleather Report post Posted May 24, 2019 I admit it.. I don't "get" the aversion to using the stuff that was made for that. https://www.springfieldleather.com/Thinner-Barge-Cement-Gallon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Handstitched Report post Posted May 24, 2019 @AA3JW Although its a different brand, and ingredients maybe different, I have used acetone with ( Selleys Kwip Grip ( Au) contact adhesive, in the hope it will thin it out.........it didn't . It just went a bit ' gluggy' , and useless. MEKP = Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide , aka catalyst for resin , like fibreglass etc. Not sure if MEK and MEKP are the same ? Geez, we've gone from leather crafters to chemical freaks.... nah , just kidding HS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRV2 Report post Posted May 24, 2019 1 hour ago, JLSleather said: I admit it.. I don't "get" the aversion to using the stuff that was made for that. https://www.springfieldleather.com/Thinner-Barge-Cement-Gallon The aversion is that you pay 2 or 3 times as much because it says "Barge" on the can. MEK is MEK no matter who puts it in the can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuck123wapati Report post Posted May 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, TonyRV2 said: The aversion is that you pay 2 or 3 times as much because it says "Barge" on the can. MEK is MEK no matter who puts it in the can. yes always read the msds, and do a little research and usually you can find the same chemicals a lot cheaper than buying from accompany that just repackages and charges more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JLSleather Report post Posted May 24, 2019 52 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said: yes always read the msds, and do a little research and usually you can find the same chemicals a lot cheaper than buying from accompany that just repackages and charges more. I just get the thinner when I order the glue (Renia). Just not worth the trip down town to save $10 (after the trip, I wouldn't be saving that anyway). But you're right.. many things are 'jacked up' for retail, though there's no difference. I saw a "leather knife" for sale for just under $20. Same knife I bought at Lowe's in the drywall section for $6. https://www.jlsleather.com/compare-items/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 24, 2019 MEKP nope..not the same thing as MEK..the "peroxide" suffix makes all the difference..lot more Oxygen just looking for something to react with, or just to go "boom..the "peroxide part is a suffix in the name..but is actually two Oxygen atoms in the middle of the molecules of "peroxides".. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxide The one ( peroxide ) that almost everyone knows of..and probably has some in the kitchen / bathroom / garage.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide Hydrogen peroxide produced many "bottle blondes"..as they used to be known when I was a lad..and saw a resurgence with the punks. MEKP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_ethyl_ketone_peroxide The MEKP that we use in resin work ( as a catalyst ) is "diluted" to make it less likely to react / go boom... Nastily irritant, dangerous stuff, nevertheless..but at least you don't have to worry about jogging the bottle.. Whereas Acetone peroxide ( do not try to make it at home or anywhere else ) is the favourite of suicide bombers.. Highly unstable.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikermutt07 Report post Posted May 24, 2019 7 hours ago, mikesc said: Mineral spirits in Europe is denatured alcohol or methylated spirits, which is a totally different molecular mixture ( compound ) from white spirit.. Denatured alcohol..(is ethanol mixed with other things to stop people from drinking it as "untaxed alcohol ) ..Denatured alcohol in Europe is near enough pure alcohol..in the USA and Canada is can be only around the 50% alcohol..the other ingredients ( in the USA and Canada it contains methanol ) mean it will probably kill you.. But the US and Canada calls white spirit mineral spirit..white spirit is actually a naptha..a petroleum distillate..a substitute for turpentine..it is a kind of light kerosine. Two countries ( three including Canada which follows US practice fro these solvents ) divided by a common language.. re ecotalk from whom you quoted in bold, large type and even multicoloured type..all of that does not detract from them being wrong.. ecostalk is incorrect in their definition of denatured alcohol in their paragraph immediately above the one you quoted ..they say .. "Denatured Alcohol is a combination of two substances: Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol, which is basically drinking alcohol, and an additive chemical." Note the "contains two substances"..they then go on to mention that it also contains dyes ( which means that obviously it has more than two substances, unless dyes are not substances, which they indeed are ) ..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol note the section "formulations"..they ( what goes into denatured alcohol ) vary between the USA and Europe..but..in each case, there are more than two substances..Websites such as ecotalk are set up to get ad money ecotalk also says "Denatured alcohol can be used as a fuel for oil heaters which burn more cleanly than other traditional fossil fuels. The flame burns so cleanly that it is almost clear, letting off very little smoke and visible carcinogens into the air." . "Visible carcinogens ? ..What difference to a cell that may be triggered into cancerous activity does it make if the carcinogens are visible, or invisible..! They also do not check their supposedly expert advice for basic typos which their spell checker would flag..in a reply by them in their comments "it should be fine to use diluted mehtylated spirits for light cleaning" ..I make typos( more than most because my system is not in English, so it underlines everything, or nothing ) ..but I go back and correct them..especially if they are chemical names. Their website is written by non experts, who do not have qualifications in chemistry, ..Mine ( University degree..Chemistry* ..and some others in Art..chemistry is very useful for an art restorer ) was obtained in 1976.. Their website is designed primarily to get search engines to rank them highly on their supposed "expertise" and when you click through to them from SERPs, you are supposed to click on their ads "provided by Google"..their ad code is "ca-pub-8092381479390639", they are also an Amazon affiliate..The site runs on wordpress with various "plugins" and is running a variant of woo commerce..It is what SEOs call an MFA..( made for adsense ) no expertise required ..merely copy and paste ( with an occasional "re-spin" ) what they find elsewhere.. The author says that they are a product designer.. They also do not present me with a GDPR notice ( which they must, by law, to any visitors from the EU ) when I arrive at the site..despite them claiming to respect "privacy"..Google will not allow one to run adsense if one does not have a"privacy policy page"..Their privacy policy is untruthful, they say "This website does not share any personal information with third parties."..It does..it shares PII ( personally identifiable information ) with both Google and Amazon .. So..they do not tell the truth, they are an MFA, ( despite them saying that the site is for them "to learn" ) and they do not know what they are talking about, their content ( taken from elsewhere ) is only designed for you to click out from the site as fast as you can once you have arrived there, in order to earn them money from the adsense or affiliate click. Wikipedia is a better source of information about chemistry..despite the fact that anyone can edit it, it is also watched over by people with qualifications and expertise in the relevant fields.. Chemical formula are the same in any language..like mathematical equations, what we call ( in layman's terms ) the chemicals, can and does, vary so much around the world ( even when using the same language ) that "for example" if you "dilute / thin", with "mineral spirits", your "mineral spirits" will likely not be exactly the same as mine, nor anyone who lives in another country..and this "international" site, leatherworker.net does have visitors and members from many countries. * I've mentioned them before here as many of us have skills , experience or qualifications that are relevant to many subjects that come up..Degrees do not mean that one "knows it all", but on very technical subjects like chemistry and many others, they do indicate that others ( experts in the field ) have examined ones knowledge and / or ability and said yes they do know what they are talking about on that and related subjects..A bit like driving tests, unless one has a licence for motorcycles, "stick shift" and articulated trucks ( the big ones ) ..one should not make a website about how to drive them.. btw..it could be that "mineral spirits" is not the current term in the UK..I haven't bought any there for over three decades..here we call methylated spirits "alcool à bruler" and "white spirit" ( what you call "mineral spirits" ) is "white spirit"..you'd expect it to be spirit blanc or spirit blanche ( depending on if they decide it is masculin or feminine ..male or female** ) ..but no despite being France and supposedly avoiding using English words..They use the English words..although there are at least 5 kinds of "white spirit" available all of which have other names too ** Do not ask me or any French person why something inanimate is male or female..there is no reason, it just is..and sometimes it changes , depending upon if you have more than one of them, and where you are.. Sorry, I didn't mean to get you going on a whole thing. I didn't know mineral spirits were considered differently between countries. Here in the states I know they are different products. Spirits being petroleum based. I once tried to use it as reducer, it didn't work out very well. I certainly wasn't trying insult your education or level of knowledge. My education is work based and I use both products weekly. The alcohol only comes out when the spirits won't clean the mess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikesc Report post Posted May 24, 2019 I certainly wasn't trying insult your education or level of knowledge. I didn't for a moment think that you were :) ..I know some of the differences from having lived and worked in the USA..France is still able to surprise me with some of their differences ..and apparently lots of things have changed since I left the UK back in 87.. Work ( practical ) based education , IMO beats theoretical 99% of the time.. Take Granite, someone with a degree in geology could tell us both all about aspects of Granite that we wouldn't necessarily know..But, I know from my practical experience how to sculpt blocks of it, and what tools to use on which Granites, which are suitable for what sculptures or engraving or carving etc..You I know deal with it in slabs, you know from your practical work with it more than I or a geologist about how to cut it, polish it, how to finish it, which types are better for what wear applications..when not to use various types ..I know a guy who is one of the largest suppliers worldwide of Granites, owns major quarries in India, sells slabs and precut counters and "kits" for funeral home and architects, ship large numbers of container loads every month..Doesn't normally "do" sculpture Granite, I wouldn't be "lost" if the two of you were talking, but a large amount of any conversation between the two of you would be way out of my field..I'd be extremely interested though, which is why I read all the threads here, even about stuff that I don't do, probably will never do..it is all interesting.. ps ..in our house, the alcohol comes out at the end of the work or end of the day, or for celebrations..it is nearly 20.00 hrs here..end of the working day for me today, so..I'll raise a glass of Guinness to you :)..Sláinte :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikermutt07 Report post Posted May 24, 2019 @mikesc, Skol, Brother. I don't know much about the structural integrity of the different granites. We have a manager at our slab store location though, and you would think he has a degree. I'm pretty sure he bores people into writing the check. Lol. Our company is a family owned flooring company with a granite division. We deal mostly with resellers that make contracts with suppliers. Although, the name and number of a direct link could be handy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TargetRockLeather Report post Posted May 25, 2019 This is what I use to thin Barge: https://www.weaverleathersupply.com/catalog/item-detail/50-2121/s-18-all-purpose-cement/pr_54566 Much cheaper than Barge thinner. Seems to work great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
