Hoping for help with my new patcher (Adler 30-1)

[Vinito]

Hi folks. I picked up an Adler 30-1 patcher kind of by accident this past week (long story). I really like the thing, mostly from a perspective of ingenious mechanical widget more than its utility because I'm a total noob at leather working. But it might come in handy anyway... that is IF I can get it working better.

The problem I need help with is that the thing didn't come with a bobbin or shuttle (or is it a "shuttle hook""? I'll call it a shuttle for now). I didn't expect much but I took a shot at purchasing a cheap shuttle off Amazon and it already arrived to try out. It's pretty much a clone of a long-arm Singer 29K machine with the small bobbins and parts reportedly interchange, which appears to be true from what I can tell. The thing seems to drop into position and fit fine and goes through the motions OK. The problem (tell me if you've heard this before) is with the thread path and tensioner. The fit & finish of the shuttle is better than some I've seen come out of China, but it's still not great. At any rate, the thread doesn't pull through the thing very smoothly at all, and I can't seem to adjust tension on the machine no matter what I try. The top tension is pretty dang tight and the stitch is still pretty much a straight line underneath and all the looping comes from above, i.e. bottom tension is too tight no matter what I've tried so far.

On the shuttle, I have taken the tension spring off and smoothed out the edges a bit with a hone and 1200 grit sandpaper which made it a bit smoother on the corners. But I suspect it's not really the surface finish of the parts that the problem is coming from. I'm not sure how these things are actually supposed to be made when made well, but the channel where the spring fits into it has some pretty radiused inside corners rather than sharp inside corners, and this seems to be keeping the spring from simply setting flat in place but rather settles in along its edges into the radiused corners instead, which leaves a slight gap between the flat part of the spring and the channel where it fits onto the shuttle. Is this making any sense?

Anyway, I wonder if I can find an actual good quality shuttle to use in this machine or are those things rare to find? It's one of the small bobbin/shuttle versions rather than the large ones.

Just an observation from an outsider, but it sure seems like the bobbin in any machine gets the short end of the stick when it comes to tension. The upper thread has all sorts of elaborate routing and tensioners to mamage the thread while the bobbin gets not much more than a pinched slot for the thread to go through. Anyways... It's sure a worse problem on my machine than it should be and I'd like to see it work right if it's possible.

Any help steering me toward a NOS bobbin/shuttle setup or a good quality new part would be appreciated. It would be fantastic if a forum reader had an extra one to just sell to me. Prolly wishful thinking there, but a guy can dream. I don't mind spending more if I can get a good one, but I'm not versed on good sources for parts for these things and I'd prefer not to wait a month for it to arrive if possible.

Thanks for any help. I'll attach a picture of the machine below. If any further explanation or pictures are needed, I'll abide. But I'm pretty sure I just need to start with a good working shuttle.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Vinito

[Constabulary]

Do you have a manual for your machine? If not google it - download it - read it.

Make sure your thread path is correct - I do not see where your top thread is coming from.

I doubt the shuttle is the problem but cannot evaluate the details w/o having it in my hands. If top tension is to high just shorten the to tension spring by 1 or 2 coils. These springs are interchangeable with Singer 29K springs so not a big loss if it goes wrong (for what ever reason).

If you still need a quality shuttle look for TOWA made shuttles - check with your preferred dealer or Ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/390524809518

In my opinion TOWA shuttles are the best quality shuttles beside the OEM shuttles. That said - the nicest I ever have seen are the old OEM Singer shuttles. I was lucky to find one in new coition a while ago - haven´t seen anything nicer than this. It looks like chrome finished. However - TOWA relay is excellent.

[Vinito]

Thanks for the reply. Truly appreciate it.

I did download and read the manual, and thread path is run as per manual with exception of 1) not going through lube tray and 2) I have rigged up a hoop on the spool post and set the thread (larger cone type) behind machine. I kind of tucked it away for the photo. The spool needs a better setup eventually, but just trying to get it to work for now so I can determine whether or not to continue.

I still suspect the shuttle because after my first attempt to thread it, pulling thread through caused it to bunch up and eventually break. This was just hand-pulling thread through the shuttle tensioner. This is also why I ended up polishing the edges in the first place, which stopped the ripping but still didn't work well (at least I don't think so).

Thanks for the Towa recommendation. I think it won't hurt to try one anyway, so I'll call our local shop tomorrow to see if they have anything first. If not I'll order one. I found a few sources for some, but it's not clear to me whether they are reliable sources or not. One is some Amish thing apparently, one is TeamWork Sales out of LA but it looks like they pretty much carry the chinese stuff I think (I could be wrong). Central Michigan carries Towa but about double the price. CSMP seems good but is across the pond, and surely that isn't necessary is it? One place listed genuine Adler 30-1 parts, but alas, and of course, shuttle hook is not in stock.

I guess in the meantime, I can continue to futz around with the shuttle I've got and see if I can make it feed a little smoother. The metal (of the shuttle, not the spring) appears to be pretty hardened, but carbide should still machine it so maybe I can re-machine the pocket and just shave the inside corners so they aren't so rounded and make the spring fit better. I know that's not yer typical path to repair, but I'm a machinist so it's my first thought. At any rate, I'll either nudge it closer to functional or destroy it completely. Either way I might lern sumthin'.

I'm making a long story again, ain't I?

Anyways thanks for the recommendation. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Vinito

[Wizcrafts]

Here are two things you need to know about your new to you patcher.

If you experience inconsistent stitching with the non-Adler shuttle, know that the timing can be tweaked to advance or retard the hook. This affects the pick-off of the thread loop when the needle makes its down-up-down jog. Another thing affecting the loop is a paddle shaped spring inside the needle bar, just above the needle mounting clamp. If that spring is broken, bent, or worn, there is no back tension on the thread to force the loop to stay long enough to get picked off.

[Vinito]

Thanks Wiz. I'll keep that in mind. So far the machine appears to be picking up the thread and stitching consistently albeit not well. Consistently bad. Once I get the bobbin tension sorted out I'll have the chance to take a look at the timing of things to determine if anything needs tweaking.

The paddle spring appears to be OK. It all being foreign to me I can't be positive about that, but nothing appears to be "off" regarding that at least.

p.s. I'm too impatient. I went ahead and ordered the Towa shuttle, plus ordered a few different needles and some larger thread (for some reason??). The machine had a needle installed which seems to work, but it's pretty dang large for the #69 thread I'm piddling with. Yesterday a package of ordered needles arrived but they were too short. That's what you get for relying on listing info rather than looking up the real information I guess. In the manual, it says I need system 332 needles. I just today discovered that needle size and needle system are two different things. But I think I have the correct fitting needles on the way in a few different sizes and tip types. At $3 a pop (for 10) it's worth splurging to have some different things to try. I feel like I could write a scientific paper on all this discovery and experimentation. Whew!

Edited August 25, 2019 by Vinito

[Vinito]

Well I fiddled and futzed with the shuttle until it kind of works now. It did indeed seem to be a problem with the rounded inner corners keeping the tension spring from seating. Why make a product that won't work at all when it takes about a minute longer to make one that works? Oh well.

Rather than mill the slot of a hardened thing and maybe break an expensive cutter as well as the shuttle, I simply filed away the edges of the spring a little until it was narrow enough to fit against what flat was there in the slot, avoiding the raised, rounded corners.

So I was able to set it to stitch evenly between top & bottom, but it appears to me that the needle is about 4 times too large for the thread I'm currently using. Take a look and let me know if you agree, and/or feel free to tell me anything else if you want to offer advice. I can maybe make machines function generically, but I dunnow nuttin' bout sewin' nuttin.

FYI, leather is ~8 oz V.T., the thread is #69 bonded nylon and the needle is marked GB 140, whatever that means. I have some 18 size needles coming so maybe that'll be a bit closer match for the thread? Also have some 138 thread coming too so I can see how that might go as well.

Fancy USB microscope capture  :

Edited August 25, 2019 by Vinito

[Vinito]

And for what it's worth, here's a quick couple photos which hopefully show a little clearer the way I'm routing the upper thread, in case that matters for something. Probably not much significance, but...

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, Vinito said:

FYI, leather is ~8 oz V.T., the thread is #69 bonded nylon and the needle is marked GB 140, whatever that means. I have some 18 size needles coming so maybe that'll be a bit closer match for the thread? Also have some 138 thread coming too so I can see how that might go as well.

You are correct in saying that the needles are too big for the thread. I use #18 (110) needles with #69 thread and sometimes #16 (100) for better precision. A #140 needle is a #22 in Singer size and is the typical recommended for #138 thread, top and bottom. I personally find the holes too tight in leather and prefer a #23/160 with #138 thread.

[Vinito]

Thanks Wiz. I ordered a selection of needles, but dangit if I only ranged between #18 and #22. I would have thrown in some #16 had I known they might be good for the thread I already have! Well I'm sure I'll have enough to play with for a while. I'll be spending time starting down the leatherwork rabbit hole a bit anyway so no particular rush I guess.

I do have a need/want for a couple holster type items I'd like to make and some of the stuff I have coming should apply to those projects. I have a pretty large order coming from Springfield leather... a few tools but I guess most of the money spent on the order was different thicknesses of VT leather.

So pretty soon I'll be spending just a bit more time on the stitcher tying up a couple loose ends (no pun intended) and tweaking it to function a bit better, but there will also be a shift toward the meat & potatoes of some actual working of leather. I think it will be fun.

[Wizcrafts]

21 minutes ago, Vinito said:

I do have a need/want for a couple holster type items I'd like to make

The 30-1 isn't really strong enough to sew holsters much thicker than about 1/4 inch. It is limited to a maximum of #138 thread, but the bobbins are so small they can only hold a couple yards of that size thread. Despite its appearance, the 30-1 is actually a shoe and boot repair machine, strictly for uppers. I use patchers for purse repairs and for sewing patches over pockets. Your machine is best used with #69 bonded thread and a #18 needle. It can also sew with #92 thread using a #19 or #20 needle.

If you need to sew holsters, find a machine capable of handling #277 bonded thread, top and bottom. These are known as harness stitchers. Mine is a Cowboy CB4500, which I recommend. Before that I had a Union Lockstitch machine, which has a long learning curve and costs a lot more for parts and accessories.

[Vinito]

Noted.

As I mentioned in my original post, I ended up with this machine kind of by accident, but it nudged me into looking at working leather for yet another hobby. So the patcher has served its nefarious collateral purpose whether it's the correct tool for what I make or not. This whole thing has opened me up to looking into more suitable machines as well though. Maybe someday I'll be looking seriously at one. I kind of need more space for that, but I'm working on adding some finished rooms to the house this winter, so who knows? In the meantime, I can always just hand stitch. I'm pretty good at working with my hands (50 years of doing it all the time) so I feel like I can probably pull that off OK. Plus the chances are highly unlikely that I'll make much for anyone but myself and a few friends maybe. You never know I guess, but I'll probably be a pretty low volume leather newby for quite a while.

Also, by "holsters" I just kind of mean generic belt-loop holders for things like cell phone, tools and knife sheaths, etc. mostly, although I might do actual holsters from time to time I guess. I have some other half-baked ideas rattling around my head as well. At any rate, if this patcher will do 1/4" I think that will work fairly well for some things I have in mind. We'll see.

Thanks for the recommendations though. I will, no doubt, be coming back to this post for reference and you've lined up some pretty good specs there in a short post. I appreciate it.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Vinito

[Wizcrafts]

55 minutes ago, Vinito said:

At any rate, if this patcher will do 1/4" I think that will work fairly well for some things I have in mind.

It will, as long as it is properly adjusted. The foot lift is changeable on the back by a moving collar on the long pressure spring. Moving the collar all the way to the right causes maximum lift. You may be able to eek our as much as 5/16 inch, depending. But, with the small trad and needles it uses that's a lot of leather to hold with thin thread. You'll probably break a lot of thin needles trying.

You can start making extra money by sewing patches onto Bikers' vests and jackets. Your machine can install new zippers into light weight jackets. Go gettem!

[Vinito]

Dangit. I need more help or more smarts. Dunno if either is possible... maybe more help for a fee or something.

I got the #138 thread and #19 needles and now the stitch is tight on the bottom again with top tension set as tight as it will go.

Questions:

1) if the pickup arm is not adjusted properly (spring, etc.) will it cause the tension to be goofy like that or is that more to just cause a hook pickup problem? (because the hook is picking up the upper thread just fine). At the moment, I have a substitute spring arrangement hacked on the pickup arm, which I can configure three different ways depending on how much tension I want to shoot for. Thus far none of the three configurations make a difference.

2) if shuttle timing is not correct, will that cause tension balance problems or also just hook pickup problem?

3) I'm pretty sure the paddle spring on the needle bar near the needle works OK, but I could be wrong. If that is worn or something can this also cause a stitch tension balance issue?

D) all of the above?

This is about all I can think of which might be causing a problem. Both the bobbin and upper tensioners are in pretty good shape (other than being primitive and low-tech)

In case it matters, when I pull the thread out manually from the bobbin and upper to compare, I can adjust upper tension to range between obviously a bit lighter than the bobbin to about 4x tighter than the bobbin (ouch!), thus the tension adjustment evidently works about right.

The bobbin is the new, higher quality Towa one and it was working same as the first one with the smaller thread and larger needle (though drastically better-made). So this problem only happens with more properly sized needle & thread. I should maybe switch out some parts so I have a more specific idea which thing illuminates the tension problem. But the previous needle & thread were a drastically bad match so I can't see stepping back to that and settling there. I'd really like to get the #19 needle and #138 thread to sew decent if possible.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. I could try to make a movie showing slow motion timing of the cycle if that would help. Can't see the bobbin unless the cover is off though, so it wouldn't be actually pulling thread for that video. Somebody let me know if you would be willing to take a look at that if willing and if it would be helpful.

Thanks for any attention on this.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Vinito

[mikesc]

"pickup arm" ?..You mean the horizontal arm where the needle bar is going through ( along with the stitch length regulator etc ) ? Or the rocking / pivoting assembly upper "arm" that drives the needle bar up and down when you turn the handle, which turns the wheel?

Neither IME is "the pick up arm"

Quote

the stitch is tight on the bottom again

You mean the bottom thread is straight and not sinking** into the leather at all..So , when you look at the bottom of the material(s) that you are stitching, ( turn them over ) you are seeing tiny "knubs" of the top thread on the bottom, because it is being pulled down ( all the way through the material(s) by the bottom thread ? If so..That is either bottom tension too high, or top tension too low..Normally you set the bottom ( bobbin ) tension to have just a slight resistance when you pull the thread..and then adjust the top tension until the stitch is being made with "the crossover" of the two threads ( top and bottom ) happening in the middle of the "sandwich" made by whatever material(s) you are sewing.

The correct terminology is very important for anyone to be able to "troubleshoot" at a distance.be it a sewing machine, a diesel engine, or a computer...frequently the same terms / words do not refer to the same things depending on context.

"Gusset" in a leatherworkers bag..is not the same thing as "gusset" in leather lingerie. ..although you can sort of see the connection , if you consider the shapes.

**Strictly speaking , the bottom thread does not "sink in", it gets pulled up, by the top thread..but when you turn the material over, to inspect the bottom of your stitches, it then appears to be sinking in..or be "pulled down". "Too tight" might apply to the bottom thread, but not to "the bottom stitch", there is no such thing, there is however, the "bottom part of the stitch" ..as the stitch is made up of the combined action of the bottom and top thread..thus there is no "top stitch", nor is there a "bottom stitch".

Varying more than one variable thing at a time, when you have a bunch of variables..is usually not advisable, unless you know exactly what they all do, and how they all interact.

Edited August 29, 2019 by mikesc

[Vinito]

"Pick-up arm" - I meant the take-up lever.

Quote

the stitch is tight on the bottom again

Not sure what you're meaning is regarding bottom thread sinking in nor appearance ov being "pulled down" if you flip the material over. I looked and would be happy to correct myself, but I didn't mention a bottom stitch or top stitch. As quoted, my stitch, as a whole, being made up of a top thread and bottom thread, is tight on the bottom, i.e. the bottom thread is tight. And yes, to me that means the bottom thread is not sinking into the leather at all. Yes all I see is the nubs from the top thread and a straight length of bottom thread. When top thread is as high as I can set it and pull on it and compare to bottom thread, it is at least 4x tighter than the bobbin tension. Can't set it tighter and I think it would just start snapping thread if I could.

I could just punt and take up another hobby. Evidently I can't even communicate my problem, let alone troubleshoot and solve it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Vinito

[Constabulary]

deleted

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Constabulary

[chrisash]

When you pull the bottom thread out of the bobbin, how much tension is there on the thread, when you pull out a foot of thread from the bobbin and then use it to lift the bobbin off a table, it should stay in the same place, and if you give a little shake bore thread should come out, you adjust the bobbin tension with the small screw in the hook

It sounds like you have far to much tension on the bobbin

The tension on the bobbin only needs very small movements of the tension screw at a time maybe a 10 degrees at a time

[RockyAussie]

On 8/26/2019 at 10:45 AM, Wizcrafts said:

You are correct in saying that the needles are too big for the thread. I use #18 (110) needles with #69 thread and sometimes #16 (100) for better precision. A #140 needle is a #22 in Singer size and is the typical recommended for #138 thread, top and bottom. I personally find the holes too tight in leather and prefer a #23/160 with #138 thread.

 

7 hours ago, Vinito said:

Dangit. I need more help or more smarts. Dunno if either is possible... maybe more help for a fee or something.

I got the #138 thread and #19 needles and now the stitch is tight on the bottom again with top tension set as tight as it will go

I have quoted Wiz above for you to see his advise again. If you are trying to pull 138 thread up through a hole made by a size 19 needle I think you got buckleys chance. Note where wiz said #22 is recomended for 138 thread and he prefers a larger needle than that. On real soft leather you might just nearly make it work but on 1/4" veg .....

[mikesc]

Well spotted Brian ( I missed the needle size, "pick up arm" threw me )..Yep , a #19 needle has "Buckley's" or "Soddall's" or "Kerdall's" chance making a hole big enough to for the top thread to pull the bottom thread up through..I'm with wiz on that , even a #22 is a little small, a #23 is better.

Re "bottom stitch and top stitch"..Vinito.. :) yes you did not say "bottom stitch"..but it was "the stitch on the bottom", which implies that there is another stitch somewhere, or that you maybe thought that the two threads were referred to as "the stitch on the top" and "the stitch on the bottom" ( which would make two stitches in total) ."on the bottom of the stitch" ( same words, different order, better describes the stitch, and doesn't imply another stitch ( on the top ) I tend to reply not only for the benefit of the OP, but also for any who may be lurking, or who arrive to threads later.Possibly with English not as "their mother tongue"..Auto-translate is crap , so using the terms as they are in the manual ( which they may have an different language version of ) is far less likely to lead to confusion.Also many people's bandwidth and / or data caps, does not allow them to go looking at youtube to see either solutions or videos of problems. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by mikesc

[Vinito]

Good catch @RockyAussie on the thread & needle combos. I was conflating data from memory and not surprised I'm out of sync on it.

Tonight I'll try again as per Wiz's correct specs recommendation and I expect things to go much better.

Duh! 

Much thanks!

I guess I was confused at Mikesc's confusion because I said the stitch (singular) is tight on the bottom and didn't word it as a bottom nor top stitch as if there were two different stitches. I would be happy to admit bad communication and clarify, but I think we were just talking past each other.

So OK, I'll keep this thing another day anyway and try it again before giving up and selling it off.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Vinito

[Wizcrafts]

13 hours ago, Vinito said:

I got the #138 thread and #19 needles and now the stitch is tight on the bottom again with top tension set as tight as it will go.

Number 19 needles are for T90 or v92 bonded thread. Your #138 thread is 50% bigger and needs a larger needle. As the thread diameter increases, the lockstitch knots become even larger and require a much bigger hole to be pulled up without extraordinary force. The denser the material, the bigger the needle hole needs to be for any given thread combination. That is why I mentioned that I prefer a #23 (160) needle when sewing with #138 thread, top and bottom, into leather. When sewing textiles a #22 needle is fine. But, leather is tougher inside and presents more resistance to the lockstitch knots as they try to move up with the take-up lever.

[mikesc]

Quote

I think we were just talking past each other.

If that means we are "cool"..we are cool

Persevere with this machine..Adlers are very well made*..Here Singer "patchers" in Good condition can be found around €500.00 and upwards depending on the model ( I paid less for mine )..Adlers here begin around €800.00 and are usually a thousand or more..I missed a pair of them ( really close by too ) for a really silly low price on our equivalent to Craig's List..I keep a browser window open all the time on another computer just in case another one or two come up for that kind of money again ( less than €150.00 each, with a singer 29k in there too )..Shoe repair guy died, family had no idea what they had, "just wanted the old junk machines gone", a dealer saw their ad about 30 minutes before I did....and they were gone

*they hold their value well, and new are not cheap at all..they are viewed as kind of like "the Swiss Army Knife of sewing machines"

[Vinito]

Well wonder of wonders, the thing appears to be working now. So far just done a couple pretty short tests (a few inches of stitch) but it does a reasonable quality stitch with #23 needle + #138 thread and #18 needle + #69 thread. Woo-freakin'-hoo!

I have a couple parts on the way for possible future improvements or at least experimentation. One thing I'm looking forward to is a new presser foot which has most of the jagged tooth ground/filed away and coated instead with some flexible epoxy for a "rubbery" coating or at least something smooth and yet high friction to maybe imprint VT leather less as it feeds. I dunno if it will work at all, but I think it's a worthy experiment. I've seen some folks use tool dip or something like FlexSeal or something, but a closeup photo always looks like it's on the verge of peeling off if it hasn't halfway done that already. An epoxy should be more durable - that's my hypothesis.

Well thanks for the help folks. Good luck to Mikesc in catching that next incredible deal.

[mikesc]

You might try expoxying* a tiny strip off ( along the axis of the foot that runs away from you , front to back of the foot ) , a diamond file or even a diamond nail file ( medium grade, say around 1000 grit to 2000 grit ) to the bottom of a spare presser foot, it with give you friction , but not mark much, if at all.

* not a word..but should be.

[Wizcrafts]

You can find presser feet online or on the phone that have less (finer pitch) aggressive teeth (old Singer 29 feet will usually fit the Adler 30). The trade off is that you may have to manually help feed the leather, especially if you fill in the gaps with tool handle coating. This really depends on how slippery the bottom layer is. If it is slick enough, less foot pressure will be needed to hold down and move the leather. However, grabby leather needs the teeth to sink in to drag it as you sew.

I would like to remind you that "patchers" were built for shoe and boot repairs and were marketed to shoe repair shops. I use mine for sewing/darning shoe uppers, fixing purse straps, sewing patches over pockets on vests and onto jacket sleeves and sewing tubular projects too small to go around my cylinder arm machines. Tooth marks in veg-tan can be smoothed out somewhat. Reducing the foot pressure to the minimum needed to hold down the leather and move it will leave less visible marks.