Copying and copyright(ing) 'n' stuff

[Hardrada]

19 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Very very many..as is evidenced by all the very many different designs that there are..with imagination ( as a pro photographer you'll certainly have that ), it is possible to come up with very many more..What is wrong, and illegal, is copying an already existent one, asking for help in doing it, ( dismissing the work designing, cutting and making it as "simple", and yet still asking for help to do it ), the pattern of which wallet ( with instructions ) is for sale for $5.00..with unlimited use, providing one buys the pattern..Or, everyone could just design their own...Intellectual property has not been taken to extremes..only buy those who do not respect the intellectual property of others.

Now, don't get me wrong, I did see those Samsonite et al. posts and I wasn't impressed. I don't like knock-offs, but if I'm gonna attempt one, I'd at least take the time to reverse engineer it and make mocks. The cavalier request to get ready-made patterns was indeed infuriating.

Basically, you have several categories of copies:

• The shameless clone: identical, ergo also known as counterfeit.
• The (shameless) knock-off: not quite the clone, but close.
• The pastiche: a.k.a. competitive alternative. Think Windows which 'lifted' lots of elements from MacOS and just switched them around.
• The 'inspired-by': because sometimes you just can't improve on a good design: do you see anyone making cars with 5 wheels to avoid being sued by Daimler?

Of these, I oppose the first two. Those are indeed stealing; furthermore, they are intended to deceive and to fully take away sales from a creator/manufacturer. The last listed, nay; they're fair game.

As for crApple, I can tell them where the can put their monopolistic BS. Would I copy an iPhone? No, because it's too common for any clone to garner attention. Illegal, wrong... they're not always the same thing.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Hardrada

[fredk]

48 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

 At this rate, we won't be able to have round corners of radius X because someone else 'owns' that design.

Never worry. There is some common sense within copyrights laws.

Not too long ago a fashion company Ben something tried to copyright and trade mark a Blue/White/Red roundel which they used on their items. The Royal Air Force told them where to stop as the B/W/R roundel is the British RAF symbol thus the RAF already owns it, but doesn't, as it is in common usage. Ben wotsit didn't get their way.

[Hardrada]

Well, I hope the common sense, which is becoming less and less common, remains in said laws; and that it won't happen as it did with the Big Ben red bus photo case.

I once watched one of Chartermade's youtube videos in which the creator provided a link for anyone to buy the pattern; and he especified that it was for personal use, and that if the viewer wanted to sell the wallets he should come up with his own design. Totally fair. I respect that. If I find his design so efficient, I can redesign the idea and create my own version. That too is fair use.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Hardrada
Typo

[mikesc]

Quote

Of these, I oppose the first two. Those are indeed stealing; furthermore, they are intended to deceive and to fully take away sales from a creator/manufacturer. The last listed, nay; they're fair game. 

Agreed

Quote

As for crApple, I can tell them where the can put their monopolistic BS. Would I copy an iPhone? No, because it's too common for any clone to garner attention. Illegal, wrong... they're not always the same thing. 

Ah but..the clones don't have exactly the same radius on their corners.not that Apple thought of radiused corners first..

btw..I have 3 non apple phones..( and no apple ones ) I don't like their "walled garden" ..and all my computers ( which are allowed to connect to the web ) are linux ( life is too short to let windows be exposed to the web )..I have 3 machines that run win7 ulti..which are not allowed to be connected to the web..they are to run lasers / printers/ scanners etc which have software which wine ( and playonlinux ) doesn't play well with..and for which there are no drivers for linux machines..I could probably write the drivers..if I had the time, or the inclination..I don't.

Agreed, again illegal and wrong are not always the same thing..but in a venn diagram their sets frequently overlap.

 

you posted while I was typing.. agreed again...and with fred ..

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[Grumpymann]

Ok, let me whip this out and put paid to my part in the mess.

I made the same mistake asking for a pattern from someone, anyone. And someone gave me advise on how to make my own. And I appreciated to no end. Now when I want to make something I start with a sketch and work my way to creating my own patterns one or two people have asked me for a copy. Kind of helped me to take this craft more serious and increased my passion, enjoyment and pride. 

 

Yes I  was helping the guy the same way I was given help. Dose that make me an ass for helping a guy learn to fish? 

I hope not.

 

True I may not have liked the edge I seemed to hear in the post but there have been a few times when I was given help when didn't deserve it but sorely needed it. 

 

On all forums there is a... culture, a way of speaking and interacting. For an outsider or newbie it can take a while to get to know (and I'm sure even after all this time I  know I run a foul of the way here.) walking through an interaction may be better than flaming.  You know flies, honey and all that.

 

So I'm sorry if I stepped out of line. But nice is kind of my default. 

[fredk]

17 minutes ago, Grumpymann said:

Yes I  was helping the guy the same way I was given help. Dose that make me an ass for helping a guy learn to fish? 

I hope not.

No one is blaming you or condemning you for your part.

It was the other chappie's attitude.

There is no harm in asking for a pattern for something and showing a ready-made commercial item as the example. Most of us look at the commercial item and want to make our version of it, not copy it exactly ~ but that is what that chappie wanted to do. There is a pattern, and an acrylic template, readily available for that style of wallet but he seemed not to want to pay $5 -$15 for either of them.

That chappie guy was toxic

[mikesc]

There is a huge difference between helping a guy learn to fish, and helping a guy who starts off by saying says he wants to know how to steal someone else's fishing rod, that they only want $5.00 for..He knew exactly what he was proposing to do, and was asking for help to do, was wrong, as did most of the rest of us.

Would have been totally different if he came in and said "hey, I found this wallet , I like, bought the pattern for $5.00, I need some help understanding how to make it..and eventually I'd like to ( when I am experienced at it, I'd like to sell them, do you think I could sell 10 a month at $71.00 each ) ..Instead what we got was .."I wanna make $710.00 per month" ( same figure as in his  "How do I copy this Samsonite wallet thread"..10 items at $71.00 each ..seems to have a thing about certain numbers does Michael222* ;).."designing and making these things is so simple anyone can do it".."How do I do it". Combined with a whole lot of "everyone copies and steals and so it is OK for me to do it, anyone who disagrees is really copying other peoples work themselves".

*despite the autotrans English , it was crystal clear he has no respect for anyone's IP or work..given the thing about certain numbers, and the syntax and grammar, I have a pretty good idea of the guys mother tongue.

Yep Fred..toxic describes him very well..haven't had one like that in here since that "enclave guy" in South America ( I forgot the exact country ) with his awful "rough leather" and pure racism in almost every post he made.

Edited August 30, 2019 by mikesc

[Mark842]

My 2 cents for what its worth. I never show or say what my product is in this forum because I had my product knocked off years ago and it pretty much bankrupted me. It took 7 years to get back to where I was with a new product line and it was with a lot of lessons learned. I now have a trademark, have several patents pending and will go after anyone trying to rip me off. The last time if happened the seller was using my professionally shot photos because one of the venues I sell on does not allow you to watermark your photos. I know someone will say they would never sell there...well to each there own. I make a lot of money with them.

 As for, I would never in a million years, even with permission to use someones design, use that design to profit. I have over the years asked friends if I could use their design to make one for my own personal use. I understand some peoples reasoning that someones knock off makes the original looks better. The problem is that the customer might not know it is a knockoff. Then someone see's said product in real life and says, "yeah, I saw that guys website selling that. Boy the picture sure looked better". For me, I will actively enforce.

[mikesc]

Same kind of reasons why I am vague about what I make, and will not show images. Last time ( that I know of )  that one of my designs got ripped off, was a few years ago..the person wearing the knock off was not aware that the original design was mine, but the video in which they wore it had quite literally billions of views, and the item ( and the copies it, and the copies of the copy etc ) sold all over the world..hardly any of those sales were mine, as I was not credited as the designer ..I had made the original design in the late 70s..The person who did the production run for me back then in the 70s, contacted me when the video came out far more recently, to congratulate me, saying "it was all over everywhere" and "I must be drowning in orders, did I need any manufacturing"..must have missed tens of thousands of sales, and by the time I saw the thing, it was being made all over the place..that one I could not follow up on ..legally I could have, realistically I would have to live for another 50 years to take them all into court, and some of them have a lot more money than I do..and live in places that are not very respectful of IP.

Similar thing happened a long time ago..again in the 70s..I was working with ( but not for , so no "work for hire" applied ) a big name designer, I designed a complete range of articles ( women's clothing ) while he was away on holiday for a month, he came back, saw them, said how great they were..I told my folks and friends,.. Couple of months later, my designs were all over the national press, with his name on them..I'd been dumb enough to leave my sketches with him..so I had no proof that the designs were mine..When I confronted him I was told " it happens all the time, take it as a compliment, make waves over it and you'll be finished in the fashion business"..So..I accepted a large ( for that time ) cheque..and made sure never to leave any sketches or designs anywhere out of my sight again..

Nowadays..I too enforce my trademarks and prefer to make small runs , or bespoke, that I control how many are made and what the quality is..If I sell a design to someone else, then it is " the charge is Y to be used for a run of X units in Z country"..and Veritas or similar control that for me. Works the same for artwork, and prints, and molds and castings from sculptures are not allowed at all..any "series" are short, and numbered, and signed..Next year we ( me and my son ) are bringing out Comic books, our artwork, we'll be printing them, domain names and registered company are already in place..sales will be direct via sites and conventions.

I learned the hard way, if you don't lock it down, it will get stolen right out from under you, or at least when you are not around to be watching it...and that some people will steal your ideas in a heartbeat, and pass them off as their own, so don't make it easy for them to do so..

Oh ..and if you register your designs in the USA ( it is cheap to do so ) and in the EU ( again it is cheap to do so ) the "statutory damages" that you can claim are higher than you may get if you don't register them. You don't have to register anything for copyright laws to apply, but if you do, you can get more money when / if someone tries to rip you off..and in the USA at least ..notifying them that the designs etc that they ripped off were registered, can make them offer a settlement without needing to go to court at all.Plus many lawyers will take a case where the copyrights were registered, without asking fees "up front", because they know it is likely to be a "slam dunk" win.

'Nother long post..HTH someone..

Edited August 31, 2019 by mikesc
typos

[Grumpymann]

Thanks folks....