Stepping back and restarting conservative - Singer 15-91

[Vinito]

I got a little bug for leather lately and picked up a shoe patcher kind of by accident. That got me thinking along the lines of sewing machines and researching.

From what I've read, for basic straight stitching of lighter to medium stuff in general, there are a few vintage domestic machines out there in pretty high regard. I figured maybe rather than blow the savings on a heavy leather machine, I might do well to cut my teeth on something which can sew somewhat heavier things reliably and still be able to do light things well too. I know I can use something like that often enough to warrant the much lower cost. And if the future throws enough heavy jobs in front of me enough to warrant a need or even a want, then I can start to look at a heavy compound feed of some kind. For the low volume I will do as a newby anyway, I can hand stitch heavy stuff, the learning of which is probably not a bad thing in the first place.

Do this sound logical or just stingy? (keep in mind, I'm really green to working with leather to begin with)

Picked up this beauty today, for $50. Singer 15-91. It appears to work like a champ and runs as smooth as... a sewing machine! (I figure that saying must have been coined before the 1970's when sewing machine design and build quality started to drop dramatically )

The investment didn't hurt at all, and even if I drop this hobby like a rock, the mechanical beauty of these things is worth keeping around just for the art (IMO). Wonderful piece of machinery. I'm a machinist, so this stuff is just awesome to me. Anyways... yep that's a single layer of 8-oz veg tan. Struggles too much going through 2 layers, but even one layer I'm impressed. The stitch itself in one layer is very nice. That'll do... for now.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Vinito

[Wizcrafts]

I used to run a 15-91, before getting industrial machines. I found it was limited to 8 ounces, total, with no bigger than #69 bonded thread. The feed is bottom only. The pressure needed to hold down hard leather tends to drag the stitch length down. A Teflon foot helps it feed sticky materials.

A word of warning. You will burn out the pod motor trying to sew above 1/8 inch of leather. A working or rebuilt replacement motor will cost over $100 on eBay. Keep a fire extinguisher close.

[mikesc]

They are nice little machines..I have the twin of yours, same end plate I think.. ( but mine is pure treadle, no motor, never had one  ) ..But..more than two pieces of 3 oz leather ( chrome tan ) and it won't like it..More than two pieces of 2 oz veg tan, it wont like it either..That is when sewn as two thicknesses..( one on top of the other ) ..3 thicknesses of either and it will be very unhappy.and the leather will not be moving smoothly through, dropped / missed stitches, and layers out of alignment.But..I'm keeping mine..just because ..

I don't use it for leather..But just because it is a pleasure to sew textiles with..as long as they are not too thick..

Edited September 2, 2019 by mikesc

[Vinito]

haha. Yeah I wanted to test this thing out thus the patch, but I sure don't intend to make a habit of maxing out the power of this thing. Anything short of a motor rewind, I am pretty used to doing for a living, so even if I did mess it up I might be able to rebuild it with bionic parts. I'd rather it just keep working though.

But thanks for the warning. My intentions are to only put stuff together that is mostly well within the medium range of its capacity. Like I said, if I start to need something more powerful, I'll look into that then.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Vinito

[Matt S]

20 hours ago, Vinito said:

From what I've read, for basic straight stitching of lighter to medium stuff in general, there are a few vintage domestic machines out there in pretty high regard. I figured maybe rather than blow the savings on a heavy leather machine, I might do well to cut my teeth on something which can sew somewhat heavier things reliably and still be able to do light things well too. I know I can use something like that often enough to warrant the much lower cost. And if the future throws enough heavy jobs in front of me enough to warrant a need or even a want, then I can start to look at a heavy compound feed of some kind. For the low volume I will do as a newby anyway, I can hand stitch heavy stuff, the learning of which is probably not a bad thing in the first place.

Do this sound logical or just stingy? (keep in mind, I'm really green to working with leather to begin with)

Picked up this beauty today, for $50. Singer 15-91. It appears to work like a champ and runs as smooth as... a sewing machine! 

The investment didn't hurt at all, and even if I drop this hobby like a rock, the mechanical beauty of these things is worth keeping around just for the art (IMO). Wonderful piece of machinery. I'm a machinist, so this stuff is just awesome to me. Anyways... yep that's a single layer of 8-oz veg tan. Struggles too much going through 2 layers, but even one layer I'm impressed. The stitch itself in one layer is very nice. That'll do... for now.

For fabrics and textiles yes the old domestics are pretty good, especially if speed isn't very important. Proper, "real" casting, machining and fitting. I've got one myself, it comes in handy for certain things and doesn't take up much room on the shelf. $50 is a great buy and what you'll learn is certainly worth the price of admission, IMHO. However leather is a very different animal (pun intended) than fabric. The motor is but one limiting factor when you try to use a domestic machine on leather, and you'll come up against a hard stop before long. Think along the lines of someone saying "why buy a lathe, you can just lay a pillar drill on its side!" From first evidence they look like they do the same thing but there are fundamental and massive differences in construction that massively affect their capabilities and how long they'll last when pressed into a role for which they are unsuited.

Quote

before the 1970's when sewing machine design and build quality started to drop dramatically )

Domestic machines maybe, but there's plenty of good quality modern industrials still being produced to this day. I like vintage machines (I run a 100-year-old heavy harness stitcher, amongst others) but modern machines are frankly better in every regard except for one -- aesthetics. Look inside an Adler, Pfaff, Seiko or Juki from any time period and it'll impress you.

Being a machinist you may be interested to know that Johansson made the first set of gauge blocks using his wife's sewing machine, modified for lapping. 

Oh and here's an excellent film from the Singer factory in Kilbowie, Scotland in 1934 that I bet would interest you. Not an injection-moulded part in sight! 

 

[mikesc]

Matt ..As I don't allow youtube when I'm on here..I see nothing on that lnk to youtube..

Is that the one from here

https://movingimage.nls.uk/film/1592

If so, I don''t think they allow it on youtube..( it is still in copyright ) If it isn't that one ..the NLS one in that link is well worth watching, I posted it a few days ago..again ( jimi's turn next ) ..sand and plaster casting I think there..Must watch it again, to be sure..to be sure..

A lot of "background" information in the NLS link..

Edited September 3, 2019 by mikesc

[Matt S]

Yes Mike it's the same video.

[Sheilajeanne]

Did they cast those machines using the lost wax method?

[mikesc]

I'd need to watch it again ( to be sure what the method was ) I've always paid more attention to the application of the paint and the gold leaf the previous times I've seen it.Lost wax would work, but you get through a huge amount of wax when doing that kind of volume, not like when producing lost wax molds for sculpture or jewellery.

Edited September 3, 2019 by mikesc

[Matt S]

32 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Did they cast those machines using the lost wax method?

Wooden patterns, I think.

[JJN]

36 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Did they cast those machines using the lost wax method?

It looks like sand casting to me. Wooden patterns are used to make the impressions in the sand. You can see them knocking the sand out of the castings after they are cooled.

I don't think there is anything that can rival what Singer had back then. They shipped in pig iron and timbers and shipped out finished machines. They made the castings, forged internal parts, made all their own machine screws and they even made the needles. They applied the jappaned finish, made the gold leaf decals, milled the lumber to make the finished cabinets and the crates to ship them in. All in one factory. Truly amazing. I would love to read the history of how that factory was made and how long it took.

Edited September 3, 2019 by JJN

[Colt W Knight]

The capabilities of old Singer domestic machines are greatly exaggerated on the internet. I am not sure why. Some folks are trying to sell the machines, some folks are repeating bad info, and some folks are just out right making stuff up. Other than the obvious size limitations to how thick they will sew, and the size thread they can use, I found that those old machines have a real issue keeping stitch length even when working on actual projects. Sure, they will sew the mandatory test piece just fine, but when it comes to actually manipulating the leather around, sewing corners, and etc. the domestic machines fall apart quick. 

[Sheilajeanne]

JJN, there was a top and bottom to each casting when they were doing the machine arms. How would the sand in the top part stay in place while the metal was poured in? Or did the wooden patterns burn up as the metal was poured? (That seems quite wasteful!)

[JJN]

18 minutes ago, Sheilajeanne said:

JJN, there was a top and bottom to each casting when they were doing the machine arms. How would the sand in the top part stay in place while the metal was poured in? Or did the wooden patterns burn up as the metal was poured? (That seems quite wasteful!)

The sand has ingredients added that allow it to hold its shape. The formed sand is delicate at that stage and must be handled carefully. A sand casting of the inside of the arm is made separately and placed in the outer arm sand form so the arm will be hollow. After it is cast with iron the sand crumbles and falls out.

[mikesc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting

Learned how to do this many many years ago in school..woodworking too..back in the days when schools used to teach practical things  as well as academic .

[JJN]

5 minutes ago, mikesc said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_casting

Learned how to do this many many years ago in school..woodworking too..back in the days when schools used to teach practical things  as well as academic .

I learned in junior college. We had to make a 2 piece wooden pattern then we cast in bronze. That kind of learning lasts forever.

[mikesc]

Curiosity..when did you learn ( if you did ) to knit at school ? In my case it was at age 6 and 1/2, boys and girls , we all learned to knit a scarf ( school was In Yorkshire..sometimes we lived in the UK, sometimes in Eire, or on RAF bases in other countries )..scarves came in handy in Yorkshire wintertime Like you said, you never forget ..sand casting etc I learned in a different school in Shropshire.. age 10 1/2..Sewing ( hand and machine ) was learned at home in Ireland and UK..Industrial machines at my first Art School ( you can't learn talent, you either have it or you don't ), but you can learn how to work all kinds of machinery, sewing machines, printing presses, photography, darkroom , stage lighting,( and making sets and props, curtains etc, even a bit of illusionists stuff ) welding, ( arc , gas, etc ) lathes, general "shop equipment" , and sculpture stuff, all about the different materials, same with paints, papers, canvases, framing and stretchers, etc. Plus the Art School parties :)

 

*what age is "junior college" ?. North American school system ( and French , for that matter ) ages, never "stuck with me"..

Edited September 3, 2019 by mikesc

[JJN]

37 minutes ago, mikesc said:

 

*what age is "junior college" ?. North American school system ( and French , for that matter ) ages, never "stuck with me"..

Junior college, also called community college today, is a 2 year school after high school. Ages 17-20 in most cases. Also used by adults for continuing education, fun or hobby. Many offer evening classes for people with jobs.

[mikesc]

Thanks for the explanation I'm going to have to write down a chart of the equivalent ages and school types in North America, I have one somewhere that I made for the French ones ( we home schooled our son ), so after he was 6 years old here, I wasn't in contact with the French educational system, when I can't remember the school age equivalents here, I ask my Breton wife..Haven't been in the UK for so many years now, what "educational system" they currently have there no longer interests me, from the little I see of it, it appears to be mostly shambolic, producing illiterate , innumerate , "I wanna be on TV" kids and adults who "wanna make loads o' money , but not have to work"..but insist on "respec' me innit" , it was going that way when I left in 87, which was part of the reason why I left and have no intention of going back..Unless it is to pick up something that cannot be sent / shipped..

Edited September 3, 2019 by mikesc

[Bert51]

I was luck in my miss spent youth to work in the front office of a Sand Casting Foundry and used to get into trouble for spending to much of my day out the back watching these craftsmen working,

They where making alloy bodies and gearboxes for power drills, but it was good to watch them work. They would pack the sand tightly into the mold and have hundreds ready for each pour, each casting could have many parts in each sand box.

Bert.

[JJN]

@mikesc @Bert51 This is why I enjoy communicating with the folks here on LeatherWorker. People here enjoy making things and apparently they have all their life. I should be working on some websites right now but instead I am sewing some Cordura tool pouches for a client and really enjoying myself.

[Bert51]

You said it,  "really enjoying myself" and that is what I feel that matters most.

Bert.

[Sheilajeanne]

It's awesome the stuff I learn here, some of which has very little to do with leather working!

Until this evening, I knew pretty much squat about sand casting! I had no idea the sand could be made to hold it shape, or that there could be a secondary mold inside the first one so the resulting piece was hollow inside.

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, JJN said:

@mikesc @Bert51 This is why I enjoy communicating with the folks here on LeatherWorker. People here enjoy making things and apparently they have all their life. I should be working on some websites right now but instead I am sewing some Cordura tool pouches for a client and really enjoying myself.

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[fredk]

On the matter of sand casting. I know it as 'oil sand'. I've used it for making belt ends amongst other things. The belt ends were made in pewter. I found this old picture of one I made a long time ago. The belt/strap end was copied from one found in a field. I made my original copy in layers of plastic card then packed oil sand under and on top of it. Split the oil sand mould, took out the plastic strap end, closed up the mould and poured in molten pewter through a pouring shaft hole. About 10 minutes later I split the mould and took out my metal strap end. The sand mould gets destroyed in taking out the metal strap end as some pewter is in the pouring hole and a vent shaft. But it only takes a few minutes to make the mould again