Members bcraig Posted September 14, 2019 Members Report Posted September 14, 2019 I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ? assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ? Thanks
Members chiefjason Posted September 14, 2019 Members Report Posted September 14, 2019 I'm solidly in the flat back camp, and I get nothing but positive feedback about how comfortable they are. But it's not flat vs curved. You can pre curve a flat back. It's flat back vs 50-50 mold mostly. 50-50 is the standard way of making a holster. Half the mold in the front, half in the back. With a flat back the entire mold is to the front. As for retention, I'll assure you I can make a flat back tight enough to barely be able to draw it out. I have a few sitting with molds in them now to start the break in process. Personally I feel like the flat back wears better. Less against the body to push on you. I feel like once it's broken in the belt slots show less too and fit tighter to the belt. That makes a more rounded profile to help conceal it. With the 50-50 you have more material standing off the belt. Ultimately, they are both 2 layers of leather with a gun in them. But it seems the flat back rides tighter and conceals better. Keep in mind this is kind of a 9mm vs 45 question too. Someone will be along shortly to tell me I'm wrong. lol
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted September 14, 2019 Contributing Member Report Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, chiefjason said: 50-50 is the standard way of making a holster 50/50 is the standard COMMON way of making a holster. It's easy. It's fast. 2 pieces, mirror image... seems to mean half the design work to do. Lemme just be clear from the start: I'm not here to tell @chiefjason he's wrong - I agree with him. Just don't like the word "standard" as it suggest that's the "preferred" way to do it. COMMON clarifies that it's just widely done. "The "flat" back absolutely is a better holster, all else equal. It's not thinner (still 2 pieces of leather plus a pistol) but it does ride closer to the hip. We could further debate "flat", but unless the back panel is plywood or similar, the back isn't going to be flat - some contour will happen to it just from tension caused by the front panel. This is good, since if the back were truly flat, you would have air space and no friction. The question is between retention and binding - not the same thing. Ask people who use or make those 50/50 holsters .... they expect that the holster will be tighter when on the belt than when on the table. That's the nature of the design flaw in those holsters. And it is a flaw. This next section is a "footnote" you can read showing some of the absolutely GOOFY talk you'll hear regularly... pay no attention to the color, it's just to separate it. Pass it to stick to the question asked. The "discussion" is compounded by soft people who want to make money talking about holsters, who would prefer to have you pay them for articles about holsters, videos about holsters, and "patterns" for holsters --- so they can avoid actually making holsters. 'They' love to make videos, showing a highly coated holster held upside-down, showing the dummy gun doesn't fall out (a 5 oz plastic gun isn't the same world as a 2-lb loaded pistol, but that's another story for another day). Great - your gun doesn't drop on the floor. But put that on a belt and cinch it a bit (pretend you don't want it to sag with the pistol on it)... and now that holster sticks so that draw is a chore. "Break it in" they tell you. Let's cut the crap - they mean stretch it. To make sure you don't get educated, they never mention that if your 50/50 holster draws smoothly when cinched down on a belt, then it's going to be more loose OFF the belt. "They" will then say that since you aren't wearing it, it doesn't matter. But if that "doesn't matter", then WHY the video showing you shaking it upside-down?#@! Sometimes, just a moment of thinking pokes big holes in some of the BS you'll encounter. "Their" fix for this binding? Move the stitch lines AWAY FROM THE PISTOL by 1/4"... 1/2".... and push the leather down together inside the stitch lines. "They" call this "molding" (I do not), but this isn't going to hold its shape for long. If it isn't at least glued, this will open up in a few days for somebody who uses the holster regularly. That upside down holster they showed you won't do that by next week. Glued will last far longer, but there is no substitute for close-fitting stitching (remember, THEY are the ones with the videos of upside down holsters, so let's not have them say that's not true ). Steering back to the question... even the SIZE and SHAPE of the wearer will affect the fit and comfort of a "pancake" holster. These don't fit the guy with the 46" waist and the guy with the 36" waist the same way. I need to see if I can find my other try-pod... for the old camera. Maybe a 30-second video would show what would take long to discuss. This is what I call an 80/20. Nobody has done that math.... it's just to make the point that it isn't flat, and it isn't '50/50' down the middle. This is what I prefer to use, and what I prefer to make. The retention is virtually the same on or off the belt. CRANKING my belt down doesn't CRUSH the holster. And a year after i make it, you can still hold it upside down if for some reason you cared to do that. The fit is the same on me or on my wife. Size of the waist makes no difference (but remind me to make the video showing when and where it would matter for the 50/50 people). Bottom line, I've owned 50/50 holsters, but after using these, I will never go back (right handed, 4:00-4:30 kind o' guy ). If you can stand the crazy, maybe check out this time this was discussed before .. Edited September 14, 2019 by JLSleather "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted September 14, 2019 Contributing Member Report Posted September 14, 2019 BTW .... "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
wizard of tragacanth Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 There is no such thing as a flat back pancake holster. A pancake holster is a 50/50 holster. The pattern for the front and back are simple mirror images of the exact same dimensions. Molding is done on both sides, again, like mirror images. A flat back holster, has a flat back, or a gently curved back that follows the contours of the waist. All of the molding is done on the front (outside) panel. Flat back holsters are much more comfortable. The belt can be drawn tight to pull it in close, like a saddle on a horse. This does not create any discomfort. A pancake holster has a hard bulge on the back, that when drawn tight, will bear into your body, like putting a baseball under a saddle on a horse. Do you want a baseball under your saddle? nick
wizard of tragacanth Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) Oh, and another thing. Retention. These are my personal thoughts about that... How much retention do you need? Myself? Not that much. I carry every time I leave the house. I am what I would consider a "average citizen" CCW holder. For me, sufficient retention is if I can jump up and down without the gun falling out. However, that is not enough for someone who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match. That kind of retention should not be left to the molding of the ejection port and trigger guard. If that kind of retention is needed, then a "retention device" is necessary, such as a strap. Personally, I do not need a strap, nor do I want one because I do not want to deal with one in the event that I needed to draw immediately. bcraig -- BTW: "can't" is a contraction for "can not". The term that you want is "cant". nick Edited September 14, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth
Contributing Member JLSleather Posted September 14, 2019 Contributing Member Report Posted September 14, 2019 the person "who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match" doesn't need a retention device.. they need to practice pulling the rig and pulling the trigger FASTER "Observation is 9/10 of the law." IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.
wizard of tragacanth Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, JLSleather said: the person "who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match" doesn't need a retention device.. they need to practice pulling the rig and pulling the trigger FASTER Pardon me. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Police Officers, who often must wrestle with the bad guy, without killing them.
Members bcraig Posted September 15, 2019 Author Members Report Posted September 15, 2019 Nick, I really do understand the difference between usage and meaning of the word can't and the word cant but thanks for pointing out this all important issue regarding holster design.
Members MrLentz Posted September 16, 2019 Members Report Posted September 16, 2019 What's the difference then in how you make the Flat Back - flat backed so to speak? I had just made myself a 50/50 holster (for a dog leash not a gun just yet). And I immediately noticed the discomfort of it as the bulge pushes into your back. My next step was to figure out how to make a Flat Back, and go figure ... this thread popped up for exactly that. Any advice is much appreciated.
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