Flat versus Curved for Pancake holster

[bcraig]

I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ?

assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ?

Thanks

[chiefjason]

I'm solidly in the flat back camp, and I get nothing but positive feedback about how comfortable they are.  But it's not flat vs curved.  You can pre curve a flat back.  It's flat back vs 50-50 mold mostly.  50-50 is the standard way of making a holster.  Half the mold in the front, half in the back.  With a flat back the entire mold is to the front.  As for retention, I'll assure you I can make a flat back tight enough to barely be able to draw it out.  I have a few sitting with molds in them now to start the break in process.  

Personally I feel like the flat back wears better.  Less against the body to push on you.  I feel like once it's broken in the belt slots show less too and fit tighter to the belt.  That makes a more rounded profile to help conceal it.  With the 50-50 you have more material standing off the belt.  Ultimately, they are both 2 layers of leather with a gun in them.  But it seems the flat back rides tighter and conceals better.  

Keep in mind this is kind of a 9mm vs 45 question too.  Someone will be along shortly to tell me I'm wrong.  lol

[JLSleather]

3 hours ago, chiefjason said:

50-50 is the standard way of making a holster

50/50 is the standard COMMON way of making a holster.  It's easy. It's fast.  2 pieces, mirror image... seems to mean half the design work to do. 

Lemme just be clear from the start:  I'm not here to tell @chiefjason he's wrong - I agree with him.  Just don't like the word "standard" as it suggest that's the "preferred" way to do it.  COMMON clarifies that it's just widely done.  "The "flat" back absolutely is a better holster, all else equal.  It's not thinner (still 2 pieces of leather plus a pistol) but it does ride closer to the hip.

We could further debate "flat", but unless the back panel is plywood or similar, the back isn't going to be flat - some contour will happen to it just from tension caused by the front panel.  This is good, since if the back were truly flat, you would have air space and no friction.

The question is between retention and binding - not the same thing.  Ask people who use or make those 50/50 holsters .... they expect that the holster will be tighter when on the belt than when on the table.  That's the nature of the design flaw in those holsters.  And it is a flaw.  This next section is a "footnote" you can read showing some of the absolutely GOOFY talk you'll hear regularly... pay no attention to the color, it's just to separate it.  Pass it to stick to the question asked.

The "discussion" is compounded by soft people who want to make money talking about holsters, who would prefer to have you pay them for articles about holsters, videos about holsters, and "patterns" for holsters --- so they can avoid actually making holsters.

'They' love to make videos, showing a highly coated holster held upside-down, showing the dummy gun doesn't fall out (a 5 oz plastic gun isn't the same world as a 2-lb loaded pistol, but that's another story for another day).  Great - your gun doesn't drop on the floor.  But put that on a belt and cinch it a bit (pretend you don't want it to sag with the pistol on it)... and now that holster sticks so that draw is a chore.

"Break it in" they tell you.  Let's cut the crap - they mean stretch it.  To make sure you don't get educated, they never mention that if your 50/50 holster draws smoothly when cinched down on a belt, then it's going to be more loose OFF the belt.  "They" will then say that since you aren't wearing it, it doesn't matter.  But if that "doesn't matter", then WHY the video showing you shaking it upside-down?#@!  Sometimes, just a moment of thinking pokes big holes in some of the BS you'll encounter.

"Their" fix for this binding?  Move the stitch lines AWAY FROM THE PISTOL by 1/4"... 1/2".... and push the leather down together inside the stitch lines.  "They" call this "molding" (I do not), but this isn't going to hold its shape for long.  If it isn't at least glued, this will open up in a few days for somebody who uses the holster regularly.  That upside down holster they showed you won't do that by next week.  Glued will last far longer, but there is no substitute for close-fitting stitching (remember, THEY are the ones with the videos of upside down holsters, so let's not have them say that's not true  ).

Steering back to the question... even the SIZE and SHAPE of the wearer will affect the fit and comfort of a "pancake" holster.  These don't fit the guy with the 46" waist and the guy with the 36" waist the same way.  I need to see if I can find my other try-pod... for the old camera.  Maybe a 30-second video would show what would take long to discuss.

This is what I call an 80/20.  Nobody has done that math.... it's just to make the point that it isn't flat, and it isn't '50/50' down the middle.

This is what I prefer to use, and what I prefer to make.  The retention is virtually the same on or off the belt.  CRANKING my belt down doesn't CRUSH the holster. And a year after i make it, you can still hold it upside down if for some reason you cared to do that.

The fit is the same on me or on my wife.  Size of the waist makes no difference (but remind me to make the video showing when and where it would matter for the 50/50 people).

Bottom line, I've owned 50/50 holsters, but after using these, I will never go back (right handed, 4:00-4:30 kind o' guy  ).

If you can stand the crazy, maybe check out this time this was discussed before ..

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by JLSleather

[JLSleather]

BTW ....

 

[wizard of tragacanth]

There is no such thing as a flat back pancake holster.

A pancake holster is a 50/50 holster. The pattern for the front and back are simple mirror images of the exact same dimensions. Molding is done on both sides, again, like mirror images.

A flat back holster, has a flat back, or a gently curved back that follows the contours of the waist. All of the molding is done on the front (outside) panel.

Flat back holsters are much more comfortable. The belt can be drawn tight to pull it in close, like a saddle on a horse. This does not create any discomfort.

A pancake holster has a hard bulge on the back, that when drawn tight, will bear into your body, like putting a baseball under a saddle on a horse.

Do you want a baseball under your saddle?

nick

 

[wizard of tragacanth]

Oh, and another thing. Retention. These are my personal thoughts about that...

How much retention do you need? Myself? Not that much. I carry every time I leave the house. I am what I would consider a "average citizen" CCW holder. For me, sufficient retention is if I can jump up and down without the gun falling out. However, that is not enough for someone who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match. That kind of retention should not be left to the molding of the ejection port and trigger guard. If that kind of retention is needed, then a "retention device" is necessary, such as a strap. Personally, I do not need a strap, nor do I want one because I do not want to deal with one in the event that I needed to draw immediately.

bcraig -- BTW: "can't" is a contraction for "can not". The term that you want is "cant".

nick

Edited September 14, 2019 by wizard of tragacanth

[JLSleather]

the person "who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match" doesn't need a retention device.. they need to practice pulling the rig and pulling the trigger FASTER

[wizard of tragacanth]

6 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

the person "who has a very good chance of getting in a fight or a wrestling match" doesn't need a retention device.. they need to practice pulling the rig and pulling the trigger FASTER

Pardon me. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Police Officers, who often must wrestle with the bad guy, without killing them.

[bcraig]

Nick, I really do understand the difference between usage and meaning of the word can't and the word cant but thanks for pointing out this all important issue regarding holster design.

[MrLentz]

What's the difference then in how you make the Flat Back - flat backed so to speak? I had just made myself a 50/50 holster (for a dog leash not a gun just yet). And I immediately noticed the discomfort of it as the bulge pushes into your back. My next step was to figure out how to make a Flat Back, and go figure ... this thread popped up for exactly that. Any advice is much appreciated.

[chiefjason]

5 hours ago, MrLentz said:

What's the difference then in how you make the Flat Back - flat backed so to speak? I had just made myself a 50/50 holster (for a dog leash not a gun just yet). And I immediately noticed the discomfort of it as the bulge pushes into your back. My next step was to figure out how to make a Flat Back, and go figure ... this thread popped up for exactly that. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

This is my way.  You can click on the pics to view them in PB.  Annoying, and why I don't use PB anymore. 

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:36 AM, wizard of tragacanth said:

Pardon me. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Police Officers, who often must wrestle with the bad guy, without killing them.

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. At best you will be wrestling over a half drawn gun. To those who think I'm wrong get a friend to Run at you from 10 yards, which is much farther than most altercations, and try to draw your piece( use a toy gun!) before he gets there!  One last thought on personal protection the bad guy usually knows he's going to attack so wont give you 10 yards.

[MrLentz]

Excellent, that certainly clears it up, thanks Chief!

[bcraig]

4 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. At best you will be wrestling over a half drawn gun. To those who think I'm wrong get a friend to Run at you from 10 yards, which is much farther than most altercations, and try to draw your piece( use a toy gun!) before he gets there!  One last thought on personal protection the bad guy usually knows he's going to attack so wont give you 10 yards.

Reaction time
Action beats reaction

That's why we all keep our eyes and ears open and stay on alert as much as possible.
Additionally if a person is being rushed it is sometimes  faster to step to the side while you Are drawing.
Train to move as you are drawing as well and get off the X 

Also keep in mind that the idea that a person can never defend themselves because of reaction time might lead some to not carry on a daily basis.
And that might lead to going unarmed completely and that only leads to being almost completely vulnerable to an attack .

I would much rather have a pistol and not need it than need a pistol and not have it.

 

[JLSleather]

10 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. ....at you from 10 yards,

10 yards is like 30 feet in english.  That's about 6 steps if you're ALREADY AT A FULL OUT RUN... more like 10 steps if the guy is starting at you from a stop.  While I'm not nearly in the physical condition I used to be,  I'm still fairly quick.  In the time it take most guys your size to cross the room (about the distance you're talking about) I'll have a snack and a nap.  And BTW, teh Duke woulda left his iron holstered and just "beat the hell out" the guy.

Still, I wanted to say thanks for yet another response having nothing to do with the original question-- there isn't nearly enough of that on this site already, right?  

By way of reminder, THIS was the question.

On 9/14/2019 at 1:57 AM, bcraig said:

I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ?

assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ?

Thanks

 

[JLSleather]

Long as we're doing this detraction from the point, here's an interesting video.  I didn't go through a bunch of them.. picked this one right off because the guy isn't particularly young or fit.  

Once he gets done with the promo of his S/W piece, and finally goes to shoot... looks like it takes him about 3 seconds to draw, level, and put 6 rounds in a target at about 10 yards.  Skip to the 3:00 mark and watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dOVZ5TRCUw

 

[Josh Ashman]

On 9/14/2019 at 1:57 AM, bcraig said:

I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ?

assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ?

Thanks

Hey Bcraig,

First off, welcome to the forum and good luck with your project! It seems to me that your question on the difference between a flat backed and curved back has been better defined and well answered between JLS and Chief Jason. When it comes to which is better for comfort and retention you understandably get into person preferences and everything is subjective. Since you asked the questions and this is an open forum I'll share my $0.02, it's worth exactly what it cost you  

Most slide widths on semi auto pistols are in the neighborhood of 1". Most concealed carry holsters are made of leather in the neighborhood of 8 oz, or 1/8" thick. Running with these dimensions, a true 50/50 molded holster will have 5/8" of molding pressed into the backside of the holster from the center of the holster. A true 80/20 would have 1/8" of molding on the backside, making a difference of 1/2". I generally carry IWB which puts the full width of the pistol along with multiple layers of leather for a width of roughly 1-1/4" under my belt. I don't find this to be at all uncomfortable, so it's probably not a surprise when I say that I can't tell the difference in comfort between a OWB pancake style holster with 50/50 molding and one with 80/20 molding. I've built, and used several personal holsters of both types and I just don't feel there is any appreciable difference in comfort. Since all people are different, somebody else may have a completely different opinion.

As for retention, I have found that a 50/50 molded holster will pull the holster a little flatter when worn on a belt, just as JLS has previously noted. The only thing I would add is that in my experience it's a very modest amount that has no real impact. If you build your holster too tight to draw whether it's 100% flat backed, or 50/50 or even molded 100% on the back for a flat front, you can stretch the holster to make it fit. This is because all leather stretches, it doesn't care how you molded it. So, if the sight gets a little bound up on a new 50/50 holster and you wear it around for a week or so then it fits well you can call it "break in" or you can call it a "design flaw", either way it now draws well and works fine. That the leather stretched to where the pistol draws well isn't an indication it will continue to stretch, just like when an 80/20 holster has the leather stretched when being formed doesn't mean that it will stretch more later either. 

In my opinion ride height, grip accessibility, cant, leather quality and construction quality (no particular order there) all greatly outweigh how much is molded into the back or front panel. These things will determine whether you have a good, great or poor holster. Whether the molding is 50/50, 80/20 or 100/0 makes more difference in function than the holster color, but no much more. Again, this is just my opinion. 

Have a great day folks! 

Josh

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

12 hours ago, JLSleather said:

10 yards is like 30 feet in english.  That's about 6 steps if you're ALREADY AT A FULL OUT RUN... more like 10 steps if the guy is starting at you from a stop.  While I'm not nearly in the physical condition I used to be,  I'm still fairly quick.  In the time it take most guys your size to cross the room (about the distance you're talking about) I'll have a snack and a nap.  And BTW, teh Duke woulda left his iron holstered and just "beat the hell out" the guy.

Still, I wanted to say thanks for yet another response having nothing to do with the original question-- there isn't nearly enough of that on this site already, right?  

By way of reminder, THIS was the question.

 

If you think  you can, try it with a friend then get back to me with the actual outcome not an opinion. Yes the duke would have because he has more sense than most people he also would have a secure weapon. By the way I'll post what I want to say thanks.

[chuck123wapati]

19 hours ago, bcraig said:

Reaction time
Action beats reaction

That's why we all keep our eyes and ears open and stay on alert as much as possible.
Additionally if a person is being rushed it is sometimes  faster to step to the side while you Are drawing.
Train to move as you are drawing as well and get off the X 

Also keep in mind that the idea that a person can never defend themselves because of reaction time might lead some to not carry on a daily basis.
And that might lead to going unarmed completely and that only leads to being almost completely vulnerable to an attack .

I would much rather have a pistol and not need it than need a pistol and not have it.

 

I really wasn't trying to change the topic, start an argument or garner sarcastic remarks I was just trying to add a little commonsense about using a strap on your weapon. Law enforcement uses straps the military uses straps and any good self defense weapons instructor will tell you that drawing your weapon should only be done when you can be assured that you can come to full draw without the danger of the weapon being taken away from you. A couple of milliseconds to pop the strap will easily be overcome by practice. As JL said John Wayne wouldn't try to out draw an opponent that was to close neither would a cop and neither should anyone. You are exactly right Keep alert and if rushed take steps to get to a SAFE shooting position. Don't go un armed but do get professional hands on weapons training and  YouTube videos don't qualify!! 

[chuck123wapati]

12 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Long as we're doing this detraction from the point, here's an interesting video.  I didn't go through a bunch of them.. picked this one right off because the guy isn't particularly young or fit.  

Once he gets done with the promo of his S/W piece, and finally goes to shoot... looks like it takes him about 3 seconds to draw, level, and put 6 rounds in a target at about 10 yards.  Skip to the 3:00 mark and watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dOVZ5TRCUw

 

You do know most football players just for example can run 40 yards in under 4 seconds. An average crackhead can cover 10 in much less than 3 as I said try it yourself if you don't believe me you'll be surprised!

[JLSleather]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

JL said John Wayne wouldn't try to out draw an opponent that was to close

My name isn't JL (or Billy Bob) and

that's not what i said (not even close) and

a guy I don't know coming at me at that speed will be perceived as a threat and treated as one.  Has never happened.  Maybe won't ever happen.

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

ou do know most football players just for example can run 40 yards in under 4 seconds.

Wrong. Twice.

This shows the FASTEST of them cranking at 4.3 seconds.  And that's professional athletes. Most you meet "on the street" would likely drop from coronary disease before they got that far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutDiLADWuY

BUT.... all this having nothing to do with leatherwork or the guy's orginal question, so let me tie back in by offering this time-honored tip:  ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check to be sure you put the lid on the glue jar.  No shame double checking.

[JLSleather]

2 hours ago, Josh Ashman said:

when an 80/20 holster has the leather stretched when being formed

Actually, I don't stretch the leather. But, whatever

 

[Josh Ashman]

50 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Actually, I don't stretch the leather. But, whatever

 

 

It'd be quite a trick to form wet leather and not stretch it. Cut you a 8" square of leather then form it over a holster front. Now lay it flat again and it's no longer a 8" square. You stretched it boss, even if you didn't mean to. 

[bcraig]

10 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I really wasn't trying to change the topic, start an argument or garner sarcastic remarks I was just trying to add a little commonsense about using a strap on your weapon. Law enforcement uses straps the military uses straps and any good self defense weapons instructor will tell you that drawing your weapon should only be done when you can be assured that you can come to full draw without the danger of the weapon being taken away from you. A couple of milliseconds to pop the strap will easily be overcome by practice. As JL said John Wayne wouldn't try to out draw an opponent that was to close neither would a cop and neither should anyone. You are exactly right Keep alert and if rushed take steps to get to a SAFE shooting position. Don't go un armed but do get professional hands on weapons training and  YouTube videos don't qualify!! 

When I asked about the difference between the flat backed pancake and curved back pancake part of the question asked about retention but I was referring to any difference between the two holsters and not whether a pancake holster with a strap was better than a pancake holster without a strap.

Seeing how this thread has drifted from its original intent I will play along.

I have carried for over 40 years and have used a variety of pistols and revolvers along with a variety of holsters(Strongside owb,strong side iwb,crossdraw,shoulder ,pocket Holster,in the pocket with no holster and stuck in the waistband at about 4 oclock.

For instance out on a tractor or 3 or 4 wheeler or horse I want a holster with a retaining strap and the holster mostly being some type of owb with a retaining strap as I don't want to the handgun to come out of the holster .

When carrying concealed (and I do everyday whether at home or out)I just want a holster that when going about my normal activity(Getting in and out of my pickup,sitting on the couch,mowing the yard,going to the grocery store etc)keeps my handgun secure .
I also carry a New York Reload.

The Military using a retaining strap or a tension adjuster on their holsters do so because of anticipated vigorous activity much as an outdoors man or someone working on a farm might.
Law enforcement might do the same because they might have someone try to take their handgun.And if they have someone try to take their handgun (which more than likely will be visible and that is why they are trying to take it)a retaining strap or a pure retention holster would be a good idea.
Also if they are trained to do so they can take your handgun right off your belt ,holster and all .
I do not carry in the open ever and therefore am not worried about someone trying to take my handgun.

I have been shooting handguns since I was 10 years old and have never heard the term Full Draw used concerning anything other than Archery.
I was practicing the Speed Rock 45 years ago 

John Wayne was a very good actor and don't know what he might have recommended as far as shooting goes but that has no importance.

To say that a cop nor anyone else should try and outdraw anyone who is too close means what?
What is too close? What does outdraw mean?
Is too close 3 ft,5 ft,10ft or 30ft?
Does outdraw mean drawing your gun while someone is pointing a gun at you?if so ,would you not want to at least try to survive instead of just standing there and getting shot?
Do you mean they have told you that they are going to kill you and you believe they actually are going to try ?then do your best to stop them whatever the means.
Does outdraw mean that they are reaching for a gun ? if so then draw yours first if you can and start shooting.
The what ifs are never ending.

Also keep in mind that although nobody wants to be shot ,in real life being shot does not mean that you are dead or stopped.
And the same goes for a thug that you might have to shoot.
People do not get blown across a room or flung through a window or even fall down by a gunshot ,only in the movies.

Either have or develop a survivors mindset and let no thug take your life from you or your Family.

 

[JLSleather]

6 hours ago, bcraig said:

then do your best to stop them whatever the means.

Sounds like plain good sense really.  

Meanwhile, I absolutely recommend a flat-ish holster.  But ESPECIALLY IN THE CASE of those who really want to know (not just try appear to know) I recommend making BOTH.  For the same gun, from the same materials.  Then ya know.