Flat versus Curved for Pancake holster

[chiefjason]

5 hours ago, MrLentz said:

What's the difference then in how you make the Flat Back - flat backed so to speak? I had just made myself a 50/50 holster (for a dog leash not a gun just yet). And I immediately noticed the discomfort of it as the bulge pushes into your back. My next step was to figure out how to make a Flat Back, and go figure ... this thread popped up for exactly that. Any advice is much appreciated.

 

This is my way.  You can click on the pics to view them in PB.  Annoying, and why I don't use PB anymore. 

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:36 AM, wizard of tragacanth said:

Pardon me. I should have been more clear. I was referring to Police Officers, who often must wrestle with the bad guy, without killing them.

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. At best you will be wrestling over a half drawn gun. To those who think I'm wrong get a friend to Run at you from 10 yards, which is much farther than most altercations, and try to draw your piece( use a toy gun!) before he gets there!  One last thought on personal protection the bad guy usually knows he's going to attack so wont give you 10 yards.

[MrLentz]

Excellent, that certainly clears it up, thanks Chief!

[bcraig]

4 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. At best you will be wrestling over a half drawn gun. To those who think I'm wrong get a friend to Run at you from 10 yards, which is much farther than most altercations, and try to draw your piece( use a toy gun!) before he gets there!  One last thought on personal protection the bad guy usually knows he's going to attack so wont give you 10 yards.

Reaction time
Action beats reaction

That's why we all keep our eyes and ears open and stay on alert as much as possible.
Additionally if a person is being rushed it is sometimes  faster to step to the side while you Are drawing.
Train to move as you are drawing as well and get off the X 

Also keep in mind that the idea that a person can never defend themselves because of reaction time might lead some to not carry on a daily basis.
And that might lead to going unarmed completely and that only leads to being almost completely vulnerable to an attack .

I would much rather have a pistol and not need it than need a pistol and not have it.

 

[JLSleather]

10 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

To those who think you can outdraw and shoot accurately before a person lands in the middle of your chest watches to many John Wayne movies. ....at you from 10 yards,

10 yards is like 30 feet in english.  That's about 6 steps if you're ALREADY AT A FULL OUT RUN... more like 10 steps if the guy is starting at you from a stop.  While I'm not nearly in the physical condition I used to be,  I'm still fairly quick.  In the time it take most guys your size to cross the room (about the distance you're talking about) I'll have a snack and a nap.  And BTW, teh Duke woulda left his iron holstered and just "beat the hell out" the guy.

Still, I wanted to say thanks for yet another response having nothing to do with the original question-- there isn't nearly enough of that on this site already, right?  

By way of reminder, THIS was the question.

On 9/14/2019 at 1:57 AM, bcraig said:

I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ?

assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ?

Thanks

 

[JLSleather]

Long as we're doing this detraction from the point, here's an interesting video.  I didn't go through a bunch of them.. picked this one right off because the guy isn't particularly young or fit.  

Once he gets done with the promo of his S/W piece, and finally goes to shoot... looks like it takes him about 3 seconds to draw, level, and put 6 rounds in a target at about 10 yards.  Skip to the 3:00 mark and watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dOVZ5TRCUw

 

[Josh Ashman]

On 9/14/2019 at 1:57 AM, bcraig said:

I have seen references to flatback pancake holsters,what is the difference between a Flat back pancake holster and a curved back pancake holster ?

assuming all else is equal(gun,can’t,leather weight,holster design etc)which is better for comfort and retention when worn somewhere between 3-4 o’clock strongside ?

Thanks

Hey Bcraig,

First off, welcome to the forum and good luck with your project! It seems to me that your question on the difference between a flat backed and curved back has been better defined and well answered between JLS and Chief Jason. When it comes to which is better for comfort and retention you understandably get into person preferences and everything is subjective. Since you asked the questions and this is an open forum I'll share my $0.02, it's worth exactly what it cost you  

Most slide widths on semi auto pistols are in the neighborhood of 1". Most concealed carry holsters are made of leather in the neighborhood of 8 oz, or 1/8" thick. Running with these dimensions, a true 50/50 molded holster will have 5/8" of molding pressed into the backside of the holster from the center of the holster. A true 80/20 would have 1/8" of molding on the backside, making a difference of 1/2". I generally carry IWB which puts the full width of the pistol along with multiple layers of leather for a width of roughly 1-1/4" under my belt. I don't find this to be at all uncomfortable, so it's probably not a surprise when I say that I can't tell the difference in comfort between a OWB pancake style holster with 50/50 molding and one with 80/20 molding. I've built, and used several personal holsters of both types and I just don't feel there is any appreciable difference in comfort. Since all people are different, somebody else may have a completely different opinion.

As for retention, I have found that a 50/50 molded holster will pull the holster a little flatter when worn on a belt, just as JLS has previously noted. The only thing I would add is that in my experience it's a very modest amount that has no real impact. If you build your holster too tight to draw whether it's 100% flat backed, or 50/50 or even molded 100% on the back for a flat front, you can stretch the holster to make it fit. This is because all leather stretches, it doesn't care how you molded it. So, if the sight gets a little bound up on a new 50/50 holster and you wear it around for a week or so then it fits well you can call it "break in" or you can call it a "design flaw", either way it now draws well and works fine. That the leather stretched to where the pistol draws well isn't an indication it will continue to stretch, just like when an 80/20 holster has the leather stretched when being formed doesn't mean that it will stretch more later either. 

In my opinion ride height, grip accessibility, cant, leather quality and construction quality (no particular order there) all greatly outweigh how much is molded into the back or front panel. These things will determine whether you have a good, great or poor holster. Whether the molding is 50/50, 80/20 or 100/0 makes more difference in function than the holster color, but no much more. Again, this is just my opinion. 

Have a great day folks! 

Josh

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

12 hours ago, JLSleather said:

10 yards is like 30 feet in english.  That's about 6 steps if you're ALREADY AT A FULL OUT RUN... more like 10 steps if the guy is starting at you from a stop.  While I'm not nearly in the physical condition I used to be,  I'm still fairly quick.  In the time it take most guys your size to cross the room (about the distance you're talking about) I'll have a snack and a nap.  And BTW, teh Duke woulda left his iron holstered and just "beat the hell out" the guy.

Still, I wanted to say thanks for yet another response having nothing to do with the original question-- there isn't nearly enough of that on this site already, right?  

By way of reminder, THIS was the question.

 

If you think  you can, try it with a friend then get back to me with the actual outcome not an opinion. Yes the duke would have because he has more sense than most people he also would have a secure weapon. By the way I'll post what I want to say thanks.

[chuck123wapati]

19 hours ago, bcraig said:

Reaction time
Action beats reaction

That's why we all keep our eyes and ears open and stay on alert as much as possible.
Additionally if a person is being rushed it is sometimes  faster to step to the side while you Are drawing.
Train to move as you are drawing as well and get off the X 

Also keep in mind that the idea that a person can never defend themselves because of reaction time might lead some to not carry on a daily basis.
And that might lead to going unarmed completely and that only leads to being almost completely vulnerable to an attack .

I would much rather have a pistol and not need it than need a pistol and not have it.

 

I really wasn't trying to change the topic, start an argument or garner sarcastic remarks I was just trying to add a little commonsense about using a strap on your weapon. Law enforcement uses straps the military uses straps and any good self defense weapons instructor will tell you that drawing your weapon should only be done when you can be assured that you can come to full draw without the danger of the weapon being taken away from you. A couple of milliseconds to pop the strap will easily be overcome by practice. As JL said John Wayne wouldn't try to out draw an opponent that was to close neither would a cop and neither should anyone. You are exactly right Keep alert and if rushed take steps to get to a SAFE shooting position. Don't go un armed but do get professional hands on weapons training and  YouTube videos don't qualify!! 

[chuck123wapati]

12 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Long as we're doing this detraction from the point, here's an interesting video.  I didn't go through a bunch of them.. picked this one right off because the guy isn't particularly young or fit.  

Once he gets done with the promo of his S/W piece, and finally goes to shoot... looks like it takes him about 3 seconds to draw, level, and put 6 rounds in a target at about 10 yards.  Skip to the 3:00 mark and watch this ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dOVZ5TRCUw

 

You do know most football players just for example can run 40 yards in under 4 seconds. An average crackhead can cover 10 in much less than 3 as I said try it yourself if you don't believe me you'll be surprised!