What's The Better of the Machines Available?

[RoosterShooter]

I've been away for quite a while, and decided to get back into Leatherwork. 

 

What is the best machine available in the $2500 or Less category? 

 

I'll be mainly sewing holsters, but with the occasional leather bag or wallet. 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Wizcrafts]

How thick will your holsters be and what size thread do you want to use?

[RoosterShooter]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

How thick will your holsters be and what size thread do you want to use?

The thickest part I would ever sew would be 3 pieces of 8 oz., and that would only be to attach a belt loop. 

On a regular basis I would only be sewing 2 pieces of 6-7 oz. using 277 nylon bonded thread.

 

[Wizcrafts]

13 hours ago, RoosterShooter said:

The thickest part I would ever sew would be 3 pieces of 8 oz., and that would only be to attach a belt loop. 

On a regular basis I would only be sewing 2 pieces of 6-7 oz. using 277 nylon bonded thread.

 

Based upon your requirements, at a minimum I recommend the Cowboy CB3200. It sews a solid half inch of veg-tan with up to #346 bonded thread.

Note: if you know in advance that you will be sewing right next to dropped areas, like belt loops on the bottom, or preshaped holsters up and down, the 9" arm CB3500 or the 16.5" arm CB4500 with an optional raised holster plate is a better choice. This is based on experience. I could not sew holsters the way I build most of them with only the standard flat throat plate. Shapes on the bottom get in the way of that plate.

If you sew flat first and shape later, this won't be as much of an issue. Then, of course, if you dye after sewing, the thread will be dyed too.

[RoosterShooter]

8 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Based upon your requirements, at a minimum I recommend the Cowboy CB3200. It sews a solid half inch of veg-tan with up to $346 bonded thread.

Note: if you know in advance that you will be sewing right next to dropped areas, like belt loops on the bottom, or preshaped holsters up and down, the 9" arm CB3500 or the 16.5" arm CB4500 with an optional raised holster plate is a better choice. This is based on experience. I could not sew holsters the way I build most of them with only the standard flat throat plate. Shapes on the bottom get in the way of that plate.

If you sew flat first and shape later, this won't be as much of an issue. Then, of course, if you dye after sewing, the thread will be dyed too.

OK thanks.  I was kind of looking for something different than the CB3200.  I owned one for quite a while, and used it for a solid 2 years before leaving it under a cover in my shop, due to slowing down on leatherwork.  I sold the machine, due to inactivity, and ultimately regret doing it.  However, I'm curious as to what other options are out there. 

One of the main reasons I'm kind of looking for suggestions OTHER than the Cowboy CB3200 is simply because of price.  It seems they keep going up $200 every time I look at them, and even since I talked to Neel's Saddlery back in November ... they have gone up another $200 from the previous $1800.  When I bought my first machine I paid $1500 shipped to my door, and that was back in 2015.   That was around $1300 plus $200 for Freight! 

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... falling in line with the other models ... what makes the CB3200 worth $500 more than 4 years ago?  After all, the Cobra Class 4s and other models haven't gone up nearly as much. 

I hope I'm making myself clear.  As, what I'm trying to say is ... for me it's Perceived Value.  I don't see the CB3200 worth more than a $1500 machine.  While the Cobra has held it's price, pretty much stationary, since 2015.   When I spoke the Neel's back in November I specifically asked if the price was going to go up any more, and he said he didn't know.  He "might have to raise the price due to Trump's Trade Tariffs" ... as they affect the price of each machine that much. 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by RoosterShooter

[Wizcrafts]

Cowboy and Cobra brands are made in China and have been severely impacted by multiple import tariffs since September of 2018. The dealers have to pay these new fees every time they clear machines from Customs. These tariffs have been compounding since 2018. Once applied they are non-refundable.

All this aside, the price for American made Campbell-Randall and Union Lockstitch needle and awl machines has remained fairly stable. Some of the Japanese built Juki machines have gone up in price because of new models with feature additions and operational improvements. A Juki TSC-441 can be had for as little as $5,750.00 at Nick-O-Sew. The new Adler leather sewing machines have actually come down since their introduction a couple years ago. The top-of-the-line Adler 969 ECO has dropped from 11k to 9k through Weaver Leather.

[kgg]

13 hours ago, RoosterShooter said:

One of the main reasons I'm kind of looking for suggestions OTHER than the Cowboy CB3200 is simply because of price.  It seems they keep going up $200 every time I look at them, and even since I talked to Neel's Saddlery back in November ... they have gone up another $200 from the previous $1800.  When I bought my first machine I paid $1500 shipped to my door, and that was back in 2015.   That was around $1300 plus $200 for Freight! 

Nice increase in a couple of months and over 50% increase since 2015.

10 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Cowboy and Cobra brands are made in China and have been severely impacted by multiple import tariffs since September of 2018.

Begs the question. Are the prices going to fall back once the tariffs are removed or lessen?? Maybe it may be best to buy a good used machine and wait the tariffs out.

kgg

[RoosterShooter]

4 minutes ago, kgg said:

Nice increase in a couple of months and over 50% increase since 2015.

Begs the question. Are the prices going to fall back once the tariffs are removed or lessen?? Maybe it may be best to buy a good used machine and wait the tariffs out.

kgg

I've also wondered how many machines they are holding prior to the tariffs, and using the tariffs as an excuse to raise their prices.  A lot of companies will do this if they think their customers don't know any better. 

 

For instance, they'll use the 'Tariff' excuse for sales going forward , even through they were holding 40 machines prior to the Tariff's Taking affect. It's a way to gouge customers when you aren't selling as many machines as you'd like, and that one guy will buy one to pay for the profit margin of two machines being sold.   What they don't realize is if they would lower their prices, or run a "Sale", they would sell 10 machines to the 2 or 3 that they sold at the higher price. 

 

[kgg]

I think a lot of the price on a lot of Chinese machines has more to due with what the reseller figures the market will bear and what the customer perceives the value of the item to be. Example 29k type machine no label from Asc365.com in Ontario, Canada who imports a lot of different stuff from China and advertises on kijiji costs $1079 ($825 US) with no table / motor and probably with little/no support

( https://www.kijiji.ca/v-other-business-industrial/city-of-toronto/leather-sewing-machine-leather-sewing-mending-machine-shoe-repair-industrial-188073/cas_10224180?channelId=101&td=4H9L53pF2g-jafmKKdIpi_wsecM9ZoX8bISfb_-hv5GcjWbzWXSCMddq86deX-pFHG9_WUE8Kz0xk6quJCEAyeieMUi-RrpSn9YRoSa77dBEYK8IVF6Oi1wrxYZse6XyMvxbyM-OG35BSz-y18eskoAS_G8aPoGLUYZj1490fvckHqx-N_z-uBbhjGlvJV21dJxEL_8-OPWY5nqd8ajN4TdL3LWIuLeJ2XYcD_4QhKjh184OVo826pijD1floMkPk0LKnD7MS-R3WeGXBAMZPzIcGfi8u57v0JNWeSvYNUZSkXNYgEohRgo7wKBgUy3RP3W6urdQomA9n8NdnAZBrfJvPfD8meXIBEfmMEERdU99NPHWcO0bgAr4lHBxq4QFcyuz8oIA7x4HTzY5mL39Gbf7ETS31kfJC4vcGvCWKcVKYUXqu17t0GGSUsidkCDKBgv11HdFyrWfJdwN9HhAd_Kni6EzWBZkN3YRHsNUpvUMYXo71_TidOLho8v_c7oyM3G3Ov0QqDyxFLwxJzm06vZgKjVSdHBJA2lhle5My4XMgQ7iCS-XBVHWGWtVzswt5Dxy0W4pPa1shHu-8InKIilPy4SvqJpcDAjlct4GXx8 )

while another reseller sells a similar 29k machine, also in Canada, for $2500 ($1900 US) with table / servo motor and support. I would have to look at the $1500 saving less the cost of the table/servo motor.

kgg

[JLSleather]

1 hour ago, RoosterShooter said:

For instance, they'll use the 'Tariff' excuse for sales going forward ,

You'll see people selling Hermann Oak leather, in B and C (and worse) grades, for TWICE what Hermann Oak charges for A grade.  Hermann Oak is NOT in China.  Tariffs my backside  But that will continue as long as people are willing to pay it.

I pay $2 for a simple coffee at teh "convenience" store.  I know I could make my own coffee for like a quarter, so the markup is insane.  But, The $1.75 extra is for not having to go to where my coffee pot is, pour the stuff... etc.  

In the end, I don't really care to hear the long-winded stories some tell about WHY the cost is the cost (usually just a line of BS marketing spew anyway).  Just give me the total, and I'll pay it or I won't.

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by JLSleather

[Wizcrafts]

N.B.; The recent retaliatory tariffs on Chinese goods and sewing machines do not apply in Canada unless Canadians import machines from the USA. They can still buy from Techsew in Montreal at the same prices they have been paying.

[RoosterShooter]

8 hours ago, JLSleather said:

You'll see people selling Hermann Oak leather, in B and C (and worse) grades, for TWICE what Hermann Oak charges for A grade.  Hermann Oak is NOT in China.  Tariffs my backside  But that will continue as long as people are willing to pay it.

I pay $2 for a simple coffee at teh "convenience" store.  I know I could make my own coffee for like a quarter, so the markup is insane.  But, The $1.75 extra is for not having to go to where my coffee pot is, pour the stuff... etc.  

In the end, I don't really care to hear the long-winded stories some tell about WHY the cost is the cost (usually just a line of BS marketing spew anyway).  Just give me the total, and I'll pay it or I won't.

 

I understand that it's just simple business and economics.  However, I find it hard to believe that the Cowboy Sewing machines are any more than a $400 machine that someone imports, works on the proper parts to get the machine running properly, and resells them at a substantial Mark-up.  After all ... in today's day and time it's not hard to find out exactly WHERE these machines are being built. 

So, my point being ... if a $400 machine take a 25% tariff , that's only a $100 hike.  That doesn't take into account the fact that these are not tariffs that compound.  You pay them once, and you're done. 

I might just take a stab at one of these machines, on Alibaba, and see exactly what I get!  After all, what do I have to lose?  I have a reputable sewing machine repair shop, here locally, and it can't be any different than setting up a standard machine.  It's just a leather machine.    Right? 

 

Here's is an example.  .... https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/PA335A-cylinder-bed-compound-feeding-purse_60737338066.html?spm=a2700.themePage.1023205882945.127.621a5d280gDoSh

 

[JLSleather]

No, hey -- I 'get' it.  Good while back I saw this one.... didn't order it, though.  I see now says not available.  Looks JUST like that cobra thing, don't it?@! When I saw it available, it was priced about 40% of what that cobra sells for, making that some VERY expensive paint job.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2019484089.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.9.tLdJ5p&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1_71_72_73_74_75,searchweb201527_1,searchweb201560_9

Even the "add-ons"... drop down edge guide was like $30 (not 90).. with no minimum order required and if they charged me a "tariff" it was so small I didn't catch it

Like ya say, guy has to shop just a bit (or should anyway).  Other day I looked ebay for some "dummy" guns I couldn't find...  and what i found was there are many 'dummy guns" available at many retailers in the $50-60 range... now offered on ebay (same brand, same gun) at $60-100.  I don't know why anybody would be uninformed enough to pay that, but it must happen or they wouldn't be there, right?

[dikman]

Have you read this post?

This story pretty much mimics my attempt at importing a 441 clone to Australia. At the end of the day there was nothing to be gained and much to lose. Yes, on Alibaba they can look attractive, but that is only the starting point. The prices I got varied from about US$643 to $1200 - head only. By all means bring one in, but all you're likely to save is maybe $3-400 at the most by buying the cheapest, and you've got  absolutely no idea what the quality of the machine will be.

[Wizcrafts]

7 hours ago, RoosterShooter said:

I might just take a stab at one of these machines, on Alibaba, and see exactly what I get!  After all, what do I have to lose?  I have a reputable sewing machine repair shop, here locally, and it can't be any different than setting up a standard machine.  It's just a leather machine.    Right?

Let us know how it works out moneywise. Do read the article, linked to in the previous reply, by one of our members after he went through the tedious process of importing a 441 clone from China. You'll need to have all manner of documents ready and be prepared to do money wire transfers from your bank to a brokerage agent. Even if all goes smoothly, you become the dealer as regards repairs and warranties. It is doubtful you'll get technical support from China, unless you speak Chinese. Good luck with that.

I like how folks who may have never imported machinery from China claim to know how much our US based dealers pay per landed and warehoused machine, or what the time to set them up is worth. Oh, and dealers have really big commercial buildings, trucks and huge overhead to cover from sales. Best of all, they offer after the sale support and can get parts one might need shipped out in days instead of weeks. Most will talk you through a repair on the phone, in English, not Chingrish. Just sayin...

[Arturomex]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Let us know how it works out moneywise. Do read the article, linked to in the previous reply, by one of our members after he went through the tedious process of importing a 441 clone from China. You'll need to have all manner of documents ready and be prepared to do money wire transfers from your bank to a brokerage agent. Even if all goes smoothly, you become the dealer as regards repairs and warranties. It is doubtful you'll get technical support from China, unless you speak Chinese. Good luck with that.

I like how folks who may have never imported machinery from China claim to know how much our US based dealers pay per landed and warehoused machine, or what the time to set them up is worth. Oh, and dealers have really big commercial buildings, trucks and huge overhead to cover from sales. Best of all, they offer after the sale support and can get parts one might need shipped out in days instead of weeks. Most will talk you through a repair on the phone, in English, not Chingrish. Just sayin...

Yeah, I agree. Lots of uninformed opinion in this thread that's easily tempered by reading the experiences of the people who've actually gone through the process. I've imported a few items from China. It's no day at the beach and what you thought you bought isn't always what you get. When I buy from a dealer I get what I pay for. Your mileage, however...

[JLSleather]

My latest machine was a bit north of $2500, one before that was about half that (not the same model). 

Do I think the price is inflated for what it is?  Yup.  But i paid it because I figured the benefit was worth it at the time.   I have no idea what the "dealer" paid for it, or any taxes or duties involved.  Nor do I care.  That one machine, girl wanted $1200 and I paid.  If she said $1500 she'd still own it.  But WHY she set the price the way she did is neither my business nor my concern.  She could tell me long stories about "overhead" and "all the work that goes into making the video about it"... NEITHER of which is my issue.

Truth is, you pay that stuff every day.  Stop and get coffee, and you're paying for the new parking lot, the lights, that girl behind the counter, (even the day she calls in sick), her insurance,.... and on and on.  Now, NONE of that is my problem - and I could just go make my own coffee.  SOMETIMES, I like to just pay a bit for the stuff that's already done.  I do try to steer away from the coffee girls who say stupid things (i mean, I do shop selectively).

NOW THEN... I return you to the regularly scheduled (originally asked) question:  WHICH is the best machine, which I will leave to people more knowledgeable than myself.  Maybe I'll go make a video about picking sewing machines... making a video "about" something obviously requires no actual knowledge of the subject ....

[Wizcrafts]

There are some really well built leather sewing machines that are out of production that can be found used for $2,500 or less. One that comes to mind is the older Number 9 Machine and its younger brother, the Luberto Classic. These machines have square feed of the needle bar instead of the common pendulum feed that shortens with height. They have a single jumping foot, needle feed, no feed dog and narrow slotted throat plates. It's a shame that Tony Luberto couldn't sell more of these machines that were so well built and stay in the game.

As for used leather sewing machines that typically sell for $2500 and less, I recommend the Union Lockstitch or slightly more expensive Campbell Randall Lockstitch needle and awl machines. They do have a learning curve but are worth the effort when you see how beautifully they stitch thick and thin stacks of leather. A skilled operator can set them up to sew from as thin as 6 ounces by using the smallest needle and awl combination and thin 3 cord thread. I was able to sew 8 ounce belts, guitar straps and rifle slings with #138 thread on the two ULS machines I've owned. They are built like Sherman tanks and many are still in service after one hundred years!

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

11 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I like how folks who may have never imported machinery from China claim to know how much our US based dealers pay per landed and warehoused machine, or what the time to set them up is worth. Oh, and dealers have really big commercial buildings, trucks and huge overhead to cover from sales. Best of all, they offer after the sale support and can get parts one might need

That sounds remarkably similar to the battle a custom saddle shop faces daily.