A new machine?

[toxo]

It would seem they're identical machines. The manuals are identical for both. Both descriptions say large capacity hook.The 8mm capacity is for pu? What's pu?

for bags and regular belts should that be a concern?

[mikesc]

PU = Polyurethane..( Vinyl ..not quite , but you get the picture ) Placcy ..Skai..

Which squashes a bit..so 8mm max thickness of material to be sewn..You could put 10mm of PU in..it would get squashed to 8mm and sew.

Chrome tan also squashes a bit..so you could put 9mm or 10mm of Chrome tan in and it would squash to 8mm and sew.

Veg tan..soft veg tan..10mm in squash down to 8mm ( maybe ) sew at 8mm..Higher density Veg Tan..8 mm in sew 8mm...

How useful to you that is.. depends upon what the maximum total thickness that you are going to be sewing is ?

Surprised at the 8mm..I would have thought it would do 10mm..given what it ( they are ) is a clone of.

Belts ? How many belts of 10mm thickness do you want to make..?

Crocs in the Kentish marshes ?

Bags..get your micrometer out and measure the max thickness of some of your bags ( where the straps are etc ) is 8mm enough to be comfortable..

I still say..take some leather ( some "sandwiches" ) 8mm total and 10mm total, and maybe even 12mm total..and sit down at the machines and sew them..You'll know by the feel of the machine if it is over it's limits..

Edited March 11, 2020 by mikesc

[chrisash]

Stop talking about those crock in the romney mashes Mike, they are a secret weapon against any invaders, Hush Hush

[Matt S]

On 3/10/2020 at 11:23 AM, toxo said:

Just spoke to Konsew. Price inc everything except EPS which will be £30. He's just offered the GLOBAL WF35 Cylinder Arm for the same price. He says it's better built than the Typical and made with better metal and it's not a clone unlike the Typical. What do you thnk guys?

https://konsew.com/industrial-sewing-machine/global-wf35-cylinder-arm-walking-foot-needle-feed

It's basically a Chinese clone or at least a close copy of the Pfaff 335 so will have most of the limitations of that type (not clear what bobbins, could be original G [small] or embiggened M). I suspect it'll have a 2-motion (as opposed to superior 4-motion) feed dog. I'm not sure what the quality differences are with Typical vs. Global, if any, but being setup for leather and backed/guaranteed by a "real" dealer/technical team will be a plus.

[toxo]

2 minutes ago, Matt S said:

It's basically a Chinese clone or at least a close copy of the Pfaff 335 so will have most of the limitations of that type (not clear what bobbins, could be original G [small] or embiggened M). I suspect it'll have a 2-motion (as opposed to superior 4-motion) feed dog. I'm not sure what the quality differences are with Typical vs. Global, if any, but being setup for leather and backed/guaranteed by a "real" dealer/technical team will be a plus.

When I read this I laughed like a whipped dog. Is there no end to my torment? So come on Matt - how do the two motions work and how much difference does it make? I hope you know that if I buy one of these I won't be able to love it properly because of it's inferiority complex!

[Matt S]

7 hours ago, toxo said:

When I read this I laughed like a whipped dog. Is there no end to my torment? So come on Matt - how do the two motions work and how much difference does it make? I hope you know that if I buy one of these I won't be able to love it properly because of it's inferiority complex!

Well with a simple 2-motion feed dog the feed dog moves forwards and back in time with the needle, no up and down movement. A 4-motion feed dog drops away from the workpiece while it's moving towards you and pops up again just before the needle comes down.

What's the disadvantage of a 2-motion over a 4-motion? A less positive feed and maybe more likely to mark the backside, depending on your material. Advantages? It fits within a small cylinder casting and is a bit simpler. 2-motion feed dogs work, but it depends on your expected work. There's probably over a million small-cylinder machines with 2-motion feed dogs in use around the world and I expect most of their operators don't notice the difference. But there is a difference.

[mikesc]

And then there is "square motion"..which you are not going to get on the kind of machine that you want..yet..but which is better again. :)

[toxo]

So I'm guessing the next step up would be The Tysew? Is it a better choice or not? We're talking another £300 ish but I'd like to find something where nobody is gonna pipe up with "Not a bad machine BUT)". I've an idea that it's out of my reach but I'd like to get as close to it as possible.

https://www.tysew.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/cylinder-arm/tysew-ty-3600c-1-cylinder-arm-walking-foot-needle-feed?language=en&currency=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAiAzJLzBRAZEiwAmZb0at7aaJqWUU0x7xpZxcai98FS6p83HXmehj693DL_sjLfv3_jsN_FKhoC81cQAvD_BwE

Edited March 11, 2020 by toxo

[mikesc]

Don't know Tysew..

But :) .. as always ..the important things are ..what is the max sewing thickness ( not "lift" by lever or foot lift ) and what is the max sewing thread thickness..in the bobbin..Top thread can always be a size higher than the bobbin..but bobbin max is down to the clearance available..and how close  does it sew to the edge  ?

Edited March 11, 2020 by mikesc

[RockyAussie]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

So I'm guessing the next step up would be The Tysew? Is it a better choice or not? We're talking another £300 ish but I'd like to find something where nobody is gonna pipe up with "Not a bad machine BUT)". I've an idea that it's out of my reach but I'd like to get as close to it as possible.

https://www.tysew.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/cylinder-arm/tysew-ty-3600c-1-cylinder-arm-walking-foot-needle-feed?language=en&currency=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAiAzJLzBRAZEiwAmZb0at7aaJqWUU0x7xpZxcai98FS6p83HXmehj693DL_sjLfv3_jsN_FKhoC81cQAvD_BwE

That is a very poorly described machine but to me it looks the same as the other 2 mentioned before. Like the Techsew 2600 which has an elliptical type feed dog  as standard I think these others all do as well. The pfaff 335 standard comes with only a back and forward motion with out a drop down unless you get the "P" version which is pretty rare to find. I think that you are going to want to run a thicker thread and a thicker material capability than these machines you have found offer. Have another look at the CB227R /Techsew 2700 /Consew 227R and any other of the similar clones. Better thickness capability both in thread and leather sewing thickness. Cheaper but at the expense of a G bobbin instead of the M bobbin. If you plan on doing a LOT of belts move up to the Juki LS 341 clones with the larger M bobbins. I mentioned these earlier in the post.

[Wizcrafts]

16 hours ago, toxo said:

how do the two motions work and how much difference does it make

Matt described how a 2 motion feed dog works. What he left out is that the reason some of these machines have a 2 motion feed dog is because they are intended to be used with synchronized binder attachments. The forward backward motion helps push the material into the edge binding to get a tighter lay, especially going around curves.

[toxo]

5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Matt described how a 2 motion feed dog works. What he left out is that the reason some of these machines have a 2 motion feed dog is because they are intended to be used with synchronized binder attachments. The forward backward motion helps push the material into the edge binding to get a tighter lay, especially going around curves.

Thanks Wiz. How would you know which machine uses which and in practical terms how much difference does it make? Is it simply a case of a machine that was built for binding and altered later in which case would the clue be in the model number?

You know - and I'm looking at you Wiz for reasons obvious to most of us on here, It would be a fantastic resource to have a list of different name/same machines/clones along with a comparable spec list for each. 

Don't know how difficult that would be but I know there are people on here that already have most of these answers and it would be tremendously useful to those of us who don't.

[toxo]

OK guys. I think it has to be the Tysew 3600C-1

I've discounted the CB and the Techsew for price or availability in the UK. Spec wise the Tysew looks good in all departments. I'm waiting for a call back and they've asked me to bring samples so they must be confident and it's only the other side of London for me. I say "only" it's a murderous journey if you don't time it right and if all's well I can bring it home.

They have a similar model that they call EDGE. It has an edge guide apparently. Don't know how it works but they want another £400 for it.

https://www.tysew.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machines/cylinder-arm/tysew-ty-3600c-1-cylinder-arm-walking-foot-needle-feed?search=cylinder arm

[Wizcrafts]

Here is a video showing a synchronized binder in action on a properly setup machine.

 

[chrisash]

With all the potential companies with cash flow problems at the moment, I guess they may be open for discounting if asked, a little pressure on a new machine may go a long way

[toxo]

3 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Here is a video showing a synchronized binder in action on a properly setup machine.

 

I'd like to meet the people who come up with these ideas. A working work of art.

[toxo]

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

With all the potential companies with cash flow problems at the moment, I guess they may be open for discounting if asked, a little pressure on a new machine may go a long way

He's already rounded it down to £1200 over the phone and I haven't started yet. He wants to "upgrade me" to the latest model which has "direct drive with the motor inside the head which is a lot more money but he'll do it for the same price". I said thanks but no thanks but when I do visit he have one of each set up.

I keep expecting someone to throw a "but" at me. The specs for this machine beat most of the others.

[mikesc]

Direct drives ( where "the motor is one with the head" ) are "interesting"..until they go wrong..Then they can cost you more than the machine did originally just to get them repaired..and you'd better hope that the dealer has all the spares to hand..which they will not.

Eric ( @gottaknow ) has more experience than anyone with them than anyone else that I can think of that is a member here.

Edited March 12, 2020 by mikesc

[toxo]

Is why I would never buy a printer/scanner/copier etc.

So..... You stingy lot, if no one is going to throw a "But" into me, can someone tell me it' looks like a good machine and i'm doing the right thing?

[mikesc]

Like I said..don't know them..take some leather ( thicker than you think you'll need to sew in the next 12 months or so ) and test it..not the direct drive one..Agree with Brian.."very vague spec"..Is that a "But" enough ? :)

[toxo]

38 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Like I said..don't know them..take some leather ( thicker than you think you'll need to sew in the next 12 months or so ) and test it..not the direct drive one..Agree with Brian.."very vague spec"..Is that a "But" enough ?

You're so mean. Not a bone in sight.

[dikman]

I can't find any further information on it - manual, specs, reviews etc - which is a bit surprising. There is a model with a binder attached, which makes me wonder if this is simply another 335-type clone, plus 8mm foot lift is the same as a 335. They refer to needle-feed, not compound feed, and my guess is the feed dog is back and forth only.

Sorry, toxo, but I agree with RockyAussie, it appears to be the same as the others and if so not really suited to what you want.

[Matt S]

@Toxo, if you really want a bone/but, and at risk of being a negative Nelly... it's still a Chinese clone of the 335 (the old casting, too) and 50% higher than your initial budget! Plus I'm typically dubious about salespeople who instantly drop the price -- makes me think that the item was either overpriced to begin with or they desperately need to clear inventory. However, knowing the demographic that Tysew typically sells to, I would not be surprised if a certain "expected/automatic discount" to be built into the pricing structure so ::shrug::.

Do you envisage needing the 50mm "nose" of a small cylinder machine, or would a 75mm "nose" large cylinder machine do? Large cylinders tend to have larger bobbins and 4-motion feed dogs -- there's really not much real-estate inside a small cylinder arm. Some large cylinder machines have a narrowing of the end, where you can smoosh the work into a different shape and sew very close to the edge. or a fairly small radius. Like this example Brian showed to page 1: 

If you do end up coming round this side of the M25 give me a shout, I'm about halfway between Konsew and Tysew. There'll be a brew and a biscuit waiting for you (and maybe, if you're lucky, a go on some of my machines...)

Alternatively if you're looking for a decent dealer a bit closer to you try Maury Sewing in Bethnal Green. Old fashioned place that I've never managed to drag myself to, as I know I'd be remortgaging the cat if I did so, he gets his hands on some amazing gear that I would covet like the nerd I am. Highly recommended to me by several people who I hold in great esteem.

[RockyAussie]

The BUT is The low 8mm thickness it can take . Without a skiver you have to take into account how often you will have multiple thicknesses that end up too tight for the work. Your bag I am sure has more than that in places. Am I right? Now the binder type versions of these machines as in the normal 335 machines have a wider platform needle plate area to assist with holding the binding tape. That means also that the needle is 9mm from the edge not 6 or 7 mm. That means many gusset jobs just will not work very well, if at all. To visually identify the binder type styles look for the protruding tab as shown in the below picture .

Machines with elliptical feed dogs will normally look like this one kindly provided by Ron at Techsew. This needle in this case is about 7mm from edge.

You can see in the video above some nice looking binding work but Note: there is only one layer of leather in there and if you add to that some lining and another layer of leather and lining plus the binding itself you are quickly running out of space.

Here below I am stitching a binder onto this product and this required a lot of skiving on edges to enable this thickness to be possible

Note at the bottom of zip more thicknesses to accommodate

Now turned in the right side out you can see a LOT more thicknesses had to be fitted in as well

This motorcycle tool bag edge could not be sewn on a binder type machine due to needle tooo far from edge.

SOOOOO the BUT is unless you are planning on a skiver in the budget pretty quick..... Go bigger. There are cheap ones there as well.

 

[RockyAussie]

This picture below may give a better perspective of the distance from the edge to the needle on a typical binder set up (9mm). This is a pic from when I was making some smaller cylinder caps for all the machines.

This pic of an Adler 69 shows also a binder set up feed dog but I have done a lot off sanding with an angle grinder to get what I wanted at the time. Including the feet as well in this case.