Nigel Armitage's forthcoming book

[Tugadude]

3 hours ago, Klara said:

I have nothing against stitching irons - except their price And that I might end up working over a round form... The way I understand it, as long as I know how to use the awl, it doesn't matter how I mark my stitches. Or even whether - I just re-read The Brendan Voyage by Tim Severin and he just mentions awl and needles (and a master saddler with decades of experience to oversee the work) for sewing the leather boat he then sailed from Ireland to America (great book, btw.) 

Slight change of topic: Leatherwork might be a shrinking business compared to video games, but it's a hell of a lot better off than handspinning, dyeing and weaving. Quite possibly because handspinning has a steep learning curve and there is no way around learning to do it properly. No shortcuts, no workaround (but you can still easily spend a fortune on tools and fibres - leatherworking isn't all that expensive by comparison).

 

I'll grant you that some irons are quite spendy, but many aren't.  I bought some very nice ones recently, a 2-tooth and an 8 tooth for around $20.00 U.S..

The other thing is that while there is no arguing that using an awl to make your holes makes for a stronger seam, most of us aren't manufacturing saddles and tack.  We're doing wallets and bags where the irons are just fine.

I don't think we are that far apart in opinion.  I see the value of traditional stitching with an awl and anyone that is invested in becoming a leatherworker should learn to use the awl.  But for a lot of projects, stitching irons make sense and therefore, people should know how to use them properly.  There are still things to learn such as which irons are conducive to the style of stitching you desire, size of thread, etc.

[Sheilajeanne]

Fred, that's a great idea! 

The main problem with Stohlman is a lot of the stamps he used are no longer available. However, most of us who have been doing this awhile know how to find substitutes, and could update his patterns.

[Klara]

11 hours ago, fredk said:

umm, you've not being doing this lark very long have you ?   (thats a joke btw)

A bit off topic; when my local library was open, over a year ago now, the librarian used to order in any new leatherwork books which came up on the system. ...

Our library offered to buy a book on leatherworking, but there doesn't seem to be a single decent French book in print!

I know that most people here think that leatherworking is expensive, and I got a shock when I first saw the prices for tools. But then I remembered how much money I've spent on spinning tools over the past 15 years. Not going into details, much of it was not necessary (not to mention how depressing adding it all up would get). But decent starting equipment for halfway serious handspinning (wheel, spindle, drum carder) would set you back between 500 and 1000 dollars. That's just the tools, not the material you transform. And there's probably no shop nearby where you could get advice and try out things to see what you like. 

My closest leather shop is one car hour away, I feel I got some decent advice, and I could try which knife fit my hand better (saved me 10 Euros).  Not all that many tools are really necessary, it's just so difficult to find out which are and with my three weeks of experience I strongly disagree with some of the advice out there (I hate craft knives and box cutters with a passion. I'll literally rather use a kitchen knife for leather (but then I have good ones). But I only found that out after buying the craft knife.)

 

 

[Klara]

@Tugadude The best value sets I can find on this continent seem to be Deco-Cuir's own "brand": 40 Euros, currently discounted to 32, for 3 pricking irons with 2, 5 and 10 teeth. But that's pricking irons, for marking stitches, not for making holes. Where have you found true stitching irons (not diamond  chisels) for 20 Dollars? Might be worth paying shipping and customs...

@Sheilajeanne The Stohlman books I find most interesting are those on handsewing, tools and case making. I've not even started with tooling and stamping yet (and I figure with my non-existent drawing skills there's not much point) 

[zuludog]

You could try Etsy. Search Google for 'Etsy - leather edge bevelers'; Etsy - skiving knives' 'Etsy - stitching chisels' and so on

I have bought edge bevelers & knives that way, and it works well enough. There is usually a wide range of items and prices; the prices are clearly shown in £ ; also a delivery time. I expect similar thing would happen if you were in other countries

It helps if you have a bit of experience and knowledge of what you want, but the original supplier is shown so you can go to their Website or look for reviews

 

[Tugadude]

4 hours ago, Klara said:

@Tugadude The best value sets I can find on this continent seem to be Deco-Cuir's own "brand": 40 Euros, currently discounted to 32, for 3 pricking irons with 2, 5 and 10 teeth. But that's pricking irons, for marking stitches, not for making holes. Where have you found true stitching irons (not diamond  chisels) for 20 Dollars? Might be worth paying shipping and customs...

@Sheilajeanne The Stohlman books I find most interesting are those on handsewing, tools and case making. I've not even started with tooling and stamping yet (and I figure with my non-existent drawing skills there's not much point) 

Klara, are these the pricking irons you mentioned?  

 

[Tugadude]

We've sort of derailed the thread, hope nobody minds.  

Springfield Leather Co. offers pricking irons that appear to be very similar to the ones that Deco-Cuir is selling.  And the pricing is pretty similar.  If you have a wholesale account with SLC you can get the set for $29.99.

  For some reason, the picture won't past "full size" for me.    But you can view them on their website, along with the diamond chisels I bought.  https://www.springfieldleather.com/

 

There continues to be an issue communicating what tools we're talking about.  Some call them irons, some call them chisels and I'm sure there are other names I'm not aware of.

I try to refer to the traditional pricking irons, the ones that are mainly to mark the spacing as irons and the other style, which is designed to fully penetrate the leather as stitching irons, or stitching chisels.  

I guess I should settle on using the word chisel when I'm speaking of a tool designed to fully penetrate.

Stitching chisels can be round, straight or diamond-shaped.  Some people have no issue with round holes and many kits come pre-punched with round holes.  Many people use a drill press to make holes, which are obviously going to be round.  Personally, I've never tried round holes, but except for creating a flatter stitch, I guess they work just fine.  Nigel did show how to do a cast on your stitch and encourage a slant even when using round holes, so I could try that.

Some of the higher-end stitching chisels are just straight teeth, little to no taper and no diamond shape.  Still others feature a pronounced diamond shape.  I guess there truly is something for everyone.

[Sheilajeanne]

Klara, fortunately craft knives aren't expensive!  I blew big bucks on a good quality round knife, only to find it's not the right tool for me! It also doesn't fit my hand. 

ARgh. If anyone wants one, feel free to PM me! 

[Klara]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Klara, are these the pricking irons you mentioned?  

 

Probably, they look like it. I'm not surprised that Springfield are selling them as well. They probably all come from the same factory in China. But with a bit of luck, "our" retailers demand decent quality and check for it. If not returns are not too difficult...

[Rannoch]

23 hours ago, Klara said:

I have nothing against stitching irons - except their price And that I might end up working over a round form... The way I understand it, as long as I know how to use the awl, it doesn't matter how I mark my stitches. Or even whether - I just re-read The Brendan Voyage by Tim Severin and he just mentions awl and needles (and a master saddler with decades of experience to oversee the work) for sewing the leather boat he then sailed from Ireland to America (great book, btw.)

I love that book.  I couldn't figure out what sort of stitch the master saddler used to make the seams water tight.  Have you?  

I use a machine on some projects.  Hand stitching is really almost as fast as machine sewing on small projects, and faster in some projects.  Also, hand stitching looks much nicer.  Over and over again customers ask, "what kind of machine makes this stitch?"  When I tell them it's done by hand they are amazed.  It's a selling point.  

If ten people start leather working, or hand spinning, I wager only one continues on with it after making one or two projects.  But their interest in it creates appreciation for the work.

 

[Sheilajeanne]

1 hour ago, Rannoch said:

I love that book.  I couldn't figure out what sort of stitch the master saddler used to make the seams water tight.  Have you?  

I use a machine on some projects.  Hand stitching is really almost as fast as machine sewing on small projects, and faster in some projects.  Also, hand stitching looks much nicer.  Over and over again customers ask, "what kind of machine makes this stitch?"  When I tell them it's done by hand they are amazed.  It's a selling point.  

If ten people start leather working, or hand spinning, I wager only one continues on with it after making one or two projects.  But their interest in it creates appreciation for the work.

 

Rannoch, it wasn't the stitching that made the boat waterproof so much as it was the lanolin the hides were dressed with. I looked it up, out of curiosity: http://www.leathersmithe.com/the-brendan-voyage-select.html

The boat was made from 57 oak-tanned ox hides, tanned using traditional methods that take nearly a year to complete! 

The thread they used was hand-spun flax, treated with black wax. Hides were overlapped by an inch or more, and double stitched for strength.  One of Ireland's top harness makers oversaw the stitching, and taught them how to do both the traditional saddle stitch and a back stitch. He was a hard taskmaster, and would ruthlessly rip out someone's whole day's work if it wasn't up to his standards.  Because of the size of the hides, the saddle stitch required 2 people, one working inside the hull of the boat and the other outside!

Strongly recommend the above link - it's not a long read, and it's FASCINATING!

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Sheilajeanne

[Klara]

1 hour ago, Rannoch said:

I love that book.  I couldn't figure out what sort of stitch the master saddler used to make the seams water tight.  Have you?  

...

If ten people start leather working, or hand spinning, I wager only one continues on with it after making one or two projects.  But their interest in it creates appreciation for the work.

 

As Sheilajeanne said, the water tightness didn't come from some special stitch. The type of stitch is not named, but Severin writes that they worked with an awl and two needles (held by two people, one inside the upside-down boat, one outside). Sounds like saddle stitching to me. What is also not mentioned, and really makes me wonder: How did the hides stay in place during sewing? 

Sadly, with handspinning you can't really "make a project" to get a taste of the craft (unlike felting - there I created two little bowls in an afternoon intro course). Handspinners either get bitten by the bug while producing something lumpy that can hardlybe called yarn, and is mostly unuseable, or not. Regarding leatherwork, unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that prices of finished goods are much too high for something that's not too difficult and goes fairly quickly. I bartered a belt from a colleague - he got a crocheted mouse that took me an afternoon and a needle-felted cat head that was about an hour, I got a strip of leather with a number of holes, two snaps (I furnished the western-style buckle) and a running loop. The edges are not burnished, the flesh side is not treated in any way... I've always accepted the price of leather goods because I figured the material to be terribly expensive, but it isn't...

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Klara
clarification

[Sheilajeanne]

9 minutes ago, Klara said:

Regarding leatherwork, unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that prices of finished goods are much too high for something that's not too difficult and goes fairly quickly. I bartered a belt from a colleague - he got a crocheted mouse that took me an afternoon and a needle-felted cat head that was about an hour, I got a strip of leather with a number of holes, two snaps (I furnished the western-style buckle) and a running loop. The edges are not burnished, the flesh side is not treated in any way... I've always accepted the price of leather goods because I figured the material to be terribly expensive, but it isn't...

Klara, wait until you get into doing it properly - tooling the leather, skiving and burnishing the edges, and lining the flesh side! That takes time, a LOT of time, especially if you are hand sewing the lining!

And yes, if you read the account of how the two-person stitching was done, it definitely must have been a saddle stitch. The guy teaching them was a master harness maker - what else would it have been?

Edited April 21, 2021 by Sheilajeanne

[jrdunn]

9 hours ago, Sheilajeanne said:

Klara, fortunately craft knives aren't expensive!  I blew big bucks on a good quality round knife, only to find it's not the right tool for me! It also doesn't fit my hand. 

ARgh. If anyone wants one, feel free to PM me! 

Sheila,

I too felt the "pull" of the round knife.  I found a lot in Al Stohlman's "LEATHERCRAFT TOOLS, How to use them, How to sharpen them".  It covers how to fit it, how to use it and how to sharpen it.  It has helped me, although I'm certainly not proficient with it.  JM2C.

Jim

Edited April 22, 2021 by jrdunn
Spelling

[Klara]

@Sheilajeanne I don't doubt that one can spend huge amounts of time on leather goods. My  point is that the people in my crafts association don't. But they still sell their products for good money...

I have enormous respect for saddle makers, bag makers, shoe makers, tooling, beautiful finishing... But not for people who cut a strip off a hide, punch a few holes, set a few rivets and sell the result as a belt. My next belt I make myself

(Probably means I should buy a strap cutter...)

Regarding your round knife: If the main problem is the handle, it should be easy enough to adjust with a file and some sand paper. I just adapted an awl haft to fit my hand and it wasn't difficult (it was soft wood). And I really like rounded blades where I can cut by rocking the blade...(probably why I hate craft knives and box cutters)

[Sheilajeanne]

Klara, I couldn't get comfortable using the knife, and if I do that to the handle, I will likely ruin it for anyone else. Thought about it, and decided nope, not going there.

[Rannoch]

7 hours ago, Klara said:

 

I have enormous respect for saddle makers, bag makers, shoe makers, tooling, beautiful finishing... But not for people who cut a strip off a hide, punch a few holes, set a few rivets and sell the result as a belt. My next belt I make myself

I hear you on that.  It is amazing how few people know what goes into making a good belt, but the customers you want will recognize quality when they see it.

[Klara]

Back to the book: I tried to watch Nigel's saddle stitch video, but as he works with the awl in the left hand and considers the left side the front, his instructions are the opposite of Stohlman's. Or are they? Trying to figure it out made my head spin!

So, question to the people who have read the book: Are the instructions in there for left-handers as well, or is the front on the right?

[GatoGordo]

39 minutes ago, Klara said:

Back to the book: I tried to watch Nigel's saddle stitch video, but as he works with the awl in the left hand and considers the left side the front, his instructions are the opposite of Stohlman's. Or are they? Trying to figure it out made my head spin!

So, question to the people who have read the book: Are the instructions in there for left-handers as well, or is the front on the right?

if you watch this video and skip to 11:32 Mr. Armitage shows how to stitch right handed.

 

[Klara]

Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't got so far. If I'm understanding correctly, there's quite a few possibilities to arrive at the same result. Guess I'll have to take a bit of scrap leather and try them all..

[Rannoch]

20 hours ago, Klara said:

So, question to the people who have read the book: Are the instructions in there for left-handers as well, or is the front on the right?

It looks left handed to me, because I am right handed and I cross the needles on the other side of the leather from Nigel.  But it is still the same stitch, with the same result.  The only difference that I can see is which side you cross the needles.  Maybe I'm missing something though.  

[zuludog]

Nigel Armitage's Vimeo Channel has videos on left, and right handed saddle stitching

It is an excellent source of advice & instruction, with about 120 videos covering all sorts of things, including making a sheath, belts, bags, and techniques such as dyeing and edge finishing. And more videos are added regularly

Cost is about £6 per month = $8-33 

[Sheilajeanne]

Ordered Nigel's book shortly after I said I was going to put it on my birthday wish list on Tuesday of this week.

It arrived today. Thank you, Amazon!

It has already paid the price it cost me, just with the section on pattern making and cutting leather! Those are two of the things I've struggled with the most!

Took me 2 hours last night to copy and cut out a pattern for a Tandy wallet I wanted to keep. I was thinking my knife wasn't sharp enough because it wouldn't go through the cardboard on the first cut. Turns out you can't expect that, because more pressure actually interferes with accuracy. This explains why I had to do a number of the pieces I was cutting a second time.

Also, the information on finding the best angle for a cut was very helpful.

[Klara]

My copy arrived yesterday, and my feelings about it are mixed.

What I really love about the book is the chapter on pattern making and the exact description of the design process which allows readers to adapt the measurements to their projects. Or to make a different thing altogether... Nigel also describes what leather is needed because he is completely aware that many of his readers will not be in the UK and thus not have access to the exact same materials he has. But with the information he gives it should be easy enough to substitute (at least if one knows enough to understand different leather qualities, which unfortunately are not explained. Incidentally, what is "case leather"?). Enabling readers to adapt the project to their requirements is something I have seen all too rarely in "project books", so that part (actually, those parts, because for every project the design process is described in detail) is excellent! As I haven't actually made anything from the book I can't say how clear the instructions really are, but they certainly look well-written, with beautiful photography. (Though I've just discovered that there are no instructions on how to draw an English point on the belt template.)

My biggest criticism is that I see a discrepancy between the projects - which are starting at "first time I'm holding a leather needle" level - and the necessary tool investment. I completely understand Nigel's argument that especially a beginner needs to be able to be sure that his problems are not caused by bad tools. But when I look at what he considers necessary and add up the prices for top-quality tools I guesstimate that one arrives at £/$/€ 500 long before the end of the list. And I see very little advice on how one can get away cheaper (using washers instead of a corner cutter is mentioned). Also nothing on how to recognize the necessary good quality. Or how to maintain it (my logic is that there is no point in spending big dollars on anything with a cutting edge if I don't know how to keep the edge sharp. I prefer to practice sharpening on cheap tools.)

There are detailed chapters on measuring, cutting, and stitching (right handed, by the way, though Nigel pokes the right needle through first) - though he does not have any helpful tips on how to get a good stitch line (one of the things I struggle with - the divider too often goes somewhere it shouldn't). Same thing for edging/beveling - there is a page, but it's nearly free of information.

In summary, what is in the book is very good. But I miss quite a few things I'll keep the book, but I would only give it four stars out of five.

(Incidentally, I'm not much happier with Valerie Michael's book: I like the general information in the first part, but I won't be making any of the projects any time soon. Not just because of taste, but because they get pretty complicated pretty quickly, meaning lots of parts to cut and put together. Whereas Nigel's projects appeal to me with their - probably deceptively - simple elegance. )