Educate me on my Champion machine

[drummingpariah]

I've been fighting with a Chinese Shoe Patcher machine for awhile, and haven't been impressed with its consistency. When I saw this Champion machine show up, I decided it'd be worth trying to clean it up and see if I could get it running. If nothing else, the body should be quite a bit more rigid than the cheap little Chinese one. The catch is that I've had a tough time finding any information on it, or a maintenance manual for it. Everything seems to move freely, but I'd like to confirm that I have the timing right and figure out what the correct thread path should be. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I'm just soaking the whole thing in brass-safe degreaser right now, hoping to come up with a bit more information before machining any parts that are missing.

Thanks!

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

Well you sure went from one extreme to the other!  It is, of course, a very old machine.  Shop Talk might have a manual.  I've never owned nor run one, but I've seen work as good as any done on one.  There will be a long learning curve, being a hook and awl machine, but I'd still take it ahead of a Chinese patcher.  

[drummingpariah]

On 4/26/2020 at 12:45 AM, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

Well you sure went from one extreme to the other!  It is, of course, a very old machine.  Shop Talk might have a manual.  I've never owned nor run one, but I've seen work as good as any done on one.  There will be a long learning curve, being a hook and awl machine, but I'd still take it ahead of a Chinese patcher.  

Thanks, and you aren't kidding, this is nothing like the little Chinese patcher. I'm working my way through its components, trying to get all the grit out of the bearing surfaces and free up rusted/sticky adjustments. So far, so good. I'm really glad it came with an awl and needle, since it's starting to look like I'll have to make my own spares for it.

I managed to get the bobbin carrier out, but it seems like it was a lot more work than it should've been. Figuring out the timing on the bobbin has been really awkward as well. There are a pair of cam lugs on the front that cause mechanical lockup with the needle carrier, so I'm going to have to do some experimentation to figure out its intended alignment.

I'll get a video of it moving through its cycle sometime this week, to illustrate why I'm confused.

[Constabulary]

Holy Shit - what a beast Yeah - really - 2 extremes - a Chinese patcher and than this thing... kinda double quantum jump, I´d say.

ah - well - can it handle #96 thread and can I sew 2 oz leather with it 

Looking forward to see thing thing running

Edited April 27, 2020 by Constabulary

[dikman]

6 hours ago, Constabulary said:

Looking forward to see thing thing running

Me too!

[Handstitched]

What a beeeauty !!!!

Is this of any use to you? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lie2yVF5_CY

I had a quick look around on the webiverse  , and found all sorts of weird looking Champion machines. 

Hope it all goes well, and good luck 

HS

 

[drummingpariah]

On 4/27/2020 at 10:23 PM, Handstitched said:

What a beeeauty !!!!

Is this of any use to you? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lie2yVF5_CY

I had a quick look around on the webiverse  , and found all sorts of weird looking Champion machines. 

Hope it all goes well, and good luck 

HS

 

That looks like the same machine, and it does answer a couple of my questions. I still don't know what the big cast rocker arm on the top does though, and haven't been able to find any kind of specs on spare parts. So far, I haven't uncovered anything that I need to replace.

One interesting thing that video shows is that the bobbin carrier retracts into the machine. That's the biggest problem I have with the timing right now, but my machine isn't doing that yet. I think that might be the secret sauce to getting it running!

[Handstitched]

G'Day, glad it was a little bit of help.  I keep looking for any info , Found this :

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/7067-champion-lockstitch-shoe-machine/

Is there a model number? 

HS

[drummingpariah]

I haven't found any model information anywhere on the machine, other than a "366" stamped inside the needle area. It looks like it's an old wide throat machine, but haven't gotten much further than that.

 

I have it cycling pretty well without the hook (apparently it's a hook, not a needle) installed.

With the hook installed, I've found a definite timing issue. I haven't internalized how the machine runs yet though; I need to spend some more time looking at the 'lower mandible' parts to understand what they do and how they're supposed to work ... but right now, I have interference whenever I try to cycle it with the hook in.
 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by drummingpariah

[shoepatcher]

Deep throat Champion.    

glenn

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

I am glad to see that you are taking some time and cleaning this machine well before attempting to stitch with it.  So often, at an auction or even a private party offering, I see people turn these old beasts over completely dry, with dirt and grit grinding away at the moving parts.  The longevity of all these machines depends on proper care, and liberal and frequent oiling of the moving parts.  When everything is oiled and adjusted as it should be, these vintage machines run very smooth, and remind me of a well coordinated and conducted symphony.  They are mechanical marvels that never cease to amaze me.  You have to consider the fact that these heavy old vintage stitchers, in many cases, were developed before 1900, or shortly thereafter.  They are nothing short of amazing.

[drummingpariah]

20 hours ago, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

I am glad to see that you are taking some time and cleaning this machine well before attempting to stitch with it.  So often, at an auction or even a private party offering, I see people turn these old beasts over completely dry, with dirt and grit grinding away at the moving parts.  The longevity of all these machines depends on proper care, and liberal and frequent oiling of the moving parts.  When everything is oiled and adjusted as it should be, these vintage machines run very smooth, and remind me of a well coordinated and conducted symphony.  They are mechanical marvels that never cease to amaze me.  You have to consider the fact that these heavy old vintage stitchers, in many cases, were developed before 1900, or shortly thereafter.  They are nothing short of amazing.

The engineering that went into some of these mechanisms is breathtakingly elegant. I'm trying not to disassemble everything at once; If experience has taught me anything, it's that I'll find a way to install some component backwards and it'll take ages to figure out what was wrong. Instead, I've just been purging all the journal areas and taking one component apart at a time. It's tedious, but cathartic. I just pulled the gibs on that needle guide apart, and it was pretty disgusting in there.

 

I'm still trying to sort out why the needle pops back up partway after making a stitch. It has a lobe on the cam, so it must be intentional, but I'm definitely missing a critical piece of information.

[DonInReno]

Nice!

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

2 hours ago, drummingpariah said:

I'm still trying to sort out why the needle pops back up partway after making a stitch. It has a lobe on the cam, so it must be intentional, but I'm definitely missing a critical piece of information.

That is in order to release the thread.  

[drummingpariah]

6 hours ago, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

That is in order to release the thread.  

That explains it, of course! That means I probably just have something inside the needle seat keeping it from going all the way down, or this needle is too long. I'll be able to spend some more time on it tomorrow.

[BigSiouxSaddlery]

17 hours ago, drummingpariah said:

That explains it, of course! That means I probably just have something inside the needle seat keeping it from going all the way down, or this needle is too long. I'll be able to spend some more time on it tomorrow.

There are people still using the Champion wide throat, and I'm a little surprised someone has not replied with some experienced advice.  Needle length is very important, and there are needles that will sub over from one machine to another.  But knowing which ones, that's the key!  Ha e you tried calling Eli Schlabach?  Not sure the spelling is correct on Eli's last name, but he owns Landis sales and service, and used to own Mast's Harness Hardware before Weaver bought them out.  Eli is a very helpful, extremely knowledgeable man, and may be a wealth of information for you.  He is Amish, so you will have to leave a message, but he will call you back.  His number is 217-543-3464.  He could very well have manuals, needles, awls, and all the info you need to get this thing up and running.  He has worked tirelessly to keep these old stitchers running and parts available for many.

[machinehead]

Did you dsassemble anyting when you took the bobbin case out? Is that a closed eye needle in the top bar?

[machinehead]

On this machine, the awl goes in the top bar and the open eye needle (AKA hook, thus hook and awl machine) goes in the bottom bar.

[drummingpariah]

On 5/3/2020 at 1:43 PM, BigSiouxSaddlery said:

There are people still using the Champion wide throat, and I'm a little surprised someone has not replied with some experienced advice.  Needle length is very important, and there are needles that will sub over from one machine to another.  But knowing which ones, that's the key!  Ha e you tried calling Eli Schlabach?  Not sure the spelling is correct on Eli's last name, but he owns Landis sales and service, and used to own Mast's Harness Hardware before Weaver bought them out.  Eli is a very helpful, extremely knowledgeable man, and may be a wealth of information for you.  He is Amish, so you will have to leave a message, but he will call you back.  His number is 217-543-3464.  He could very well have manuals, needles, awls, and all the info you need to get this thing up and running.  He has worked tirelessly to keep these old stitchers running and parts available for many.

Thanks very much, I'll get ahold of him shortly. I don't mind investing in this machine, I just haven't come across any other resources like him. It has a Champion #4 hook in it right now, which I'm assuming is correct, but haven't been able to verify that yet.

On 5/3/2020 at 6:52 PM, machinehead said:

Did you dsassemble anyting when you took the bobbin case out? Is that a closed eye needle in the top bar?

Just the minimum, which was a few swinging covers that retain the bobbin case/carrier. I didn't take anything out that could've cause this interference.

On 5/3/2020 at 7:17 PM, machinehead said:

On this machine, the awl goes in the top bar and the open eye needle (AKA hook, thus hook and awl machine) goes in the bottom bar.

Verified, I have that part right at least.

[Seamus85]

I had several  issues when we got ours a few years ago, both in finding information and learning the machines peculiarities.  Back then I found a manual at Proleptic.net but it looks like the site is now a Loan company.  The only thing I find now related to leatherwork that actually works is Shop Talk!  Facebook page.  Maybe someone there has info on their manuals for old machines.                                     I will upload a couple of short vids of mine this evening and maybe seeing it will help you.  We got a bunch of needles with the machine so I haven't looked for any, but would be interested if you find out the proper sizes for future needs.  As for the outlet (bushing?) of the wax pot I tried stacked leather but it tended to leak with the water based thread lubrication from Campbell Bosworth.  My solution was to fill a small plastic tube of the proper size with Right Stuff silicone.  After it dried a few days I sliced it to length and pierced a hole for the thread.  worked like a charm.             

 

 

[Owyheebuckaroo]

Has anyone had any issues with these machines sewing right when the machine itself is cold im having a heck of a time getting mine right unless I put a heater on it for a while if it's cold it wants to break my top thread if the machine itself is warm to the touch it does it less