HELP! I was sold the wrong machine and I'm stuck!

[JHBH2]

Hi all, 

I contacted a well known sewing machine supplier in the UK (Tysew) asking for their recommendation as I couldn't find any straight info online at the time, particularly for machines that are available in the UK. 

My main items are leather planners/binders and small leather goods (wallets, belts etc) - all the products are "top stitched", and need a nice thick thread that is strong and looks smart. 

I mostly use Tempesti Liscio leather (https://www.aacrack.co.uk/tanneries/tempesti/tempesti-maine-liscio.html) which is a 2mm thick, veg tanned leather, firm handle and marks like a b****.  At most I sew 3 layers. 

I'd tried some domestic Toyota machine and a Heavy Duty singer and neither could handle it. 

Tysew in their infinite wisdom recommended a Juki DU-1181n - an industrial, flat bed beast that takes up half my living room and cost me a small fortune. 

They were right in that it's powerful enough the go through several layers of my leather - but it just is not the correct machine for the job. It marks up the leather with the feed dog AND walking foot (see photos), the needle "bursts" the leather on the underside (can't think how else to describe it, the hole is all puckered up) and it doesn't produce a good finish at all. I fought with it for years, as Tysew insisted it was the right machine for making what I do, and only after attending a trade show did I realize that they sold me completely the wrong machine - of course, it's way too late to send it back, so I'll settle for silently hating them. 

So my question is - what machine do I need? It's a minefield out there and I don't want to spend £££ on another machine that just trashes my (very expensive) leather. Hand sewing is out of the question, and I feel so demotivated as I have literally spent years fighting what should be a very simple make. 

[Wizcrafts]

They sold you a top/bottom dual feed machine when you needed a compound feed walking foot machine, with totally smooth feet.

You can try to minimize the tooth marks and puckering by reducing the spring pressure screw or screws on top of the head. There will at least be one large screw over the outer foot that pushes against a heavy coil spring inside the head. There may also be an adjustable spring over the inside foot. That one should be backed off as much as possible to minimize the puckering.

Pucker marks are a fact of life with walking foot machines. That is because the inside foot presses directly around the edge of the needle. The only way around this is either a bottom feed only or a jump foot machine (rare).

[JHBH2]

Just now, Wizcrafts said:

They sold you a top/bottom dual feed machine when you needed a compound feed walking foot machine, with totally smooth feet.

You can try to minimize the tooth marks and puckering by reducing the spring pressure screw or screws on top of the head. There will at least be one large screw over the outer foot that pushes against a heavy coil spring inside the head. There may also be an adjustable spring over the inside foot. That one should be backed off as much as possible to minimize the puckering.

Pucker marks are a fact of life with walking too machines. That is because the inside foot presses directly around the edge of the needle. The only way around this is either a bottom feed only or a jump foot machine (rare).

Fabulous thank you. I've loosened the springs as best I can without the stitching just not taking - I've also wrapped the foot in tape to try and pad it out a bit! 

I've also installed a great contraption to slow the bugger down, but thats another story. 

So the pucker/burst marks on the holes are inevitable?

[Northmount]

4 minutes ago, JHBH2 said:

So the pucker/burst marks on the holes are inevitable?

You can reduce them somewhat by using leather needles that have sort of a chisel shape rather than a conical shape point if you aren't already using them.
Can also lightly hammer the bottom stitch line to hide it somewhat.

Tom

[JHBH2]

2 minutes ago, Northmount said:

You can reduce them somewhat by using leather needles that have sort of a chisel shape rather than a conical shape point if you aren't already using them.
Can also lightly hammer the bottom stitch line to hide it somewhat.

Tom

I'll look into those thank you! 

[Wizcrafts]

22 minutes ago, JHBH2 said:

So the pucker/burst marks on the holes are inevitable?

Yes. The only machines that don't cause puckering are jump foot harness stitchers that are few, far between, and cost through the nose. You might keep an eye open for an old Adler 105 jump foot machine. Singer did make a few jump foot machine decades ago.

Considering the money you already have invested, ask the seller if they have smooth or checkered feet for it. A totally smooth outside foot doesn't help feed on top, so you'll be down to a bottom feed machine. Ask the dealer if they will give you credit towards a Juki DNU-1541, which is a compound feed machine for which there are all kinds of smooth feet.

[JHBH2]

13 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Yes. The only machines that don't cause puckering are jump foot harness stitchers that are few, far between, and cost through the nose. You might keep an eye open for an old Adler 105 jump foot machine. Singer did make a few jump foot machine decades ago.

Considering the money you already have invested, ask the seller if they have smooth or checkered feet for it. A totally smooth outside foot doesn't help feed on top, so you'll be down to a bottom feed machine. Ask the dealer if they will give you credit towards a Juki DNU-1541, which is a compound feed machine for which there are all kinds of smooth feet.

Unfortunately the dealer won't credit against a new machine - but I'm sure I can sell my old one easily enough. 

I'm looking at this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Juki-LU-563-COMPOUND-FEED-WALKING-FOOT-INDUSTRIAL-SEWING-MACHINE-For-Upholstery/264286812181?hash=item3d88b8b815:g:bvoAAOSwopFbURot which I've seen you discuss previously. It's in good condition. 

 

Would you recommend the Juki DNU-1541 over the Juki LU-563? The price difference isn't huge - a new Juki DNU is going to set me back about $1200/£950, whereas a used Juki LU-563 is about £800/$1050

[JHBH2]

Sorry the $1200/£950 was for a USED Juki-DNU1541

[sbrownn]

What is the definition of "jump foot"?

[Matt S]

Welcome, @JHBH2!

I'd suggest you try the steps mentioned above (leather-specific needles, smooth feet, hammering stitches etc.) but that your best bet is probably to look for a new machine.

If you're looking for a reputable sewing machine dealer who understands what you'd need for sewing leather I can personally recommend you Hartley Sewing Machines in Walsall, Castle Sewing near Leeds, and College Sewing in Bury. College certainly sells Juki 1541s but bear in mind that £950 for a used one is roughly half what they cost new. You've got a company called Rowlson in Nottingham who do industrial machines, but I've not heard of them before and it looks like they mostly do machinery for sewing curtains, carpets, mattresses etc. and may not have the experience to advise you reliably on machines for leather. It's possible that they may even offer you a trade-in on your Juki.

Ideally you'd visit a machine dealer and test drive any machines they propose using samples of your leather, but that's not possible right now. This would give you a feel for each one and you'd get the opportunity to learn how to make any common adjustments. Is getting a functioning machine very urgent or could you wait a while?

Since you make mostly smaller goods you might want to look at getting a cylinder-arm machine on a smaller table, which would take up less space in your living room and give you more options for sewing trickier items. The main disadvantage is that there is less area to rest your work on as you sew it but there are add-on tables available for some models, if you feel that you might want more support.
 

4 hours ago, sbrownn said:

What is the definition of "jump foot"?

A "jump-foot" is a passive, rather than active, walking foot. The foot is mounted so it can be dragged backwards by the work, then jump forwards again under spring pressure when the pressure on the foot reduces near the top of the stitch cycle. It's less likely to grab or drag than a fixed foot but not nearly so effective as a true walking foot. You used to get them on certain models of Singer 45K, but they pretty much went out with winklepicker shoes and 45RPM records.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Matt S

[JHBH2]

Thanks @Matt S 

Would you recommend the Juki 1541 over the Juki LU563?

[Matt S]

46 minutes ago, JHBH2 said:

Thanks @Matt S 

Would you recommend the Juki 1541 over the Juki LU563?

No problem.

Honestly, I've used neither. They will be fairly similar machines but the 1541 is a newer model, and is available in slightly heavier duty versions.

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, JHBH2 said:

Would you recommend the Juki 1541 over the Juki LU563?

I used to own an LU-563 and sewed on a boss's 563 for two years. All I have to say about them is that I couldn't get the forward and reverse stitches to match. I was sewing vinyl, so mismatched reverse stitches wasn't a big deal. If you are contemplating buying a 563 I advise you to test it first. Misaligned reverse stitches can totally filigree leather.

Personally, unless the 563 was in perfect condition and adjusted so the reverse stitches match the forward stitches, I would go for the newer DNU-1541. But, I strongly advise you to test it first with your own leather (use a leather point needle!). Make sure the reverse lines up with forward stitches and that the appearance on top and bottom is acceptable. Bear in mind that the pressure on the inside foot can increase or decrease the puckering on the bottom layer.

[JHBH2]

Thank you so much!

 

[sbrownn]

22 hours ago, Matt S said:

Welcome, @JHBH2!

I'd suggest you try the steps mentioned above (leather-specific needles, smooth feet, hammering stitches etc.) but that your best bet is probably to look for a new machine.

If you're looking for a reputable sewing machine dealer who understands what you'd need for sewing leather I can personally recommend you Hartley Sewing Machines in Walsall, Castle Sewing near Leeds, and College Sewing in Bury. College certainly sells Juki 1541s but bear in mind that £950 for a used one is roughly half what they cost new. You've got a company called Rowlson in Nottingham who do industrial machines, but I've not heard of them before and it looks like they mostly do machinery for sewing curtains, carpets, mattresses etc. and may not have the experience to advise you reliably on machines for leather. It's possible that they may even offer you a trade-in on your Juki.

Ideally you'd visit a machine dealer and test drive any machines they propose using samples of your leather, but that's not possible right now. This would give you a feel for each one and you'd get the opportunity to learn how to make any common adjustments. Is getting a functioning machine very urgent or could you wait a while?

Since you make mostly smaller goods you might want to look at getting a cylinder-arm machine on a smaller table, which would take up less space in your living room and give you more options for sewing trickier items. The main disadvantage is that there is less area to rest your work on as you sew it but there are add-on tables available for some models, if you feel that you might want more support.
 

A "jump-foot" is a passive, rather than active, walking foot. The foot is mounted so it can be dragged backwards by the work, then jump forwards again under spring pressure when the pressure on the foot reduces near the top of the stitch cycle. It's less likely to grab or drag than a fixed foot but not nearly so effective as a true walking foot. You used to get them on certain models of Singer 45K, but they pretty much went out with winklepicker shoes and 45RPM records.

Thank you.

[ASAuLTCases]

JHBH2, hello mate, ive got a Singer 211g166 and one of those Chinese hand-crank machines,  i live near the M1 motorway services, i see your only in Nottingham "i say only but it depends what side"  but if its any help your welcome to come and have a go with them and see if they are (the singer) what you need?

[ASAuLTCases]

i didn't say but on the singer that's compound feed,i can adjust the feed dogs so they don't come up high enough to damage the leather ( come to think about it take them off altogether),

looking at the exit ring it is leaving makes me wonder how big the needle hole is in the footplate? it looks massive or you use very small needles? that looks suspect to me as an engineer, I don't have the experience as a machinist, but it would have to be a blunt needle pushing into a large hole and forcing through the leather?  what needles are you using?

another sewing machine dealer is AE sewing machines UK, ihave only brought one order from them of needles, small pulley, bobbins, seam cutters, needle threader, thread  etc but they where great, big selection of needles, you can download your machine parts diagrams/list, they seem to have a huge spare parts department, you should be able to check if your needle hole in the footplate has been drilled out to hide damage from a stray needle,

but a smaller hole and a sharp leather needle would help you a lot, a schmetz RTW leather needle give a lovely diamond shape hole and a lovely looking saddle stitch "Z" on my machine they do,

the offers there if you want to try it,

 

[JHBH2]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:31 AM, ASAuLTCases said:

JHBH2, hello mate, ive got a Singer 211g166 and one of those Chinese hand-crank machines,  i live near the M1 motorway services, i see your only in Nottingham "i say only but it depends what side"  but if its any help your welcome to come and have a go with them and see if they are (the singer) what you need?

That's really kind thank you! I'll PM you to take you up on that! 

[JHBH2]

I'm looking into the needle things

On 6/18/2020 at 4:52 PM, Northmount said:

You can reduce them somewhat by using leather needles that have sort of a chisel shape rather than a conical shape point if you aren't already using them.
Can also lightly hammer the bottom stitch line to hide it somewhat.

Tom

 

On 6/18/2020 at 4:45 PM, Wizcrafts said:

They sold you a top/bottom dual feed machine when you needed a compound feed walking foot machine, with totally smooth feet.

You can try to minimize the tooth marks and puckering by reducing the spring pressure screw or screws on top of the head. There will at least be one large screw over the outer foot that pushes against a heavy coil spring inside the head. There may also be an adjustable spring over the inside foot. That one should be backed off as much as possible to minimize the puckering.

Pucker marks are a fact of life with walking foot machines. That is because the inside foot presses directly around the edge of the needle. The only way around this is either a bottom feed only or a jump foot machine (rare).

I'm trying to figure out the needle issue. There's a deluge of info online and its hurting my brain. 

The machine uses 135x17 (and I THINK this translates to 135x16 for leather needles?)

I had a Organ DPx17 (125/20) in the machine. 

I've swapped it out with a Groz-Beckert D/TRI point, size 110/18 - but I'm getting the same "bursting problem" with them, if not worse!

I could weep, I'm trashing so much leather and I feel like I'm going around in circles - it's obvious that I need to change the machine but to throw in an extra problem - we're meant to be moving to Dubai in a couple of months so I'm reluctant to fork out on a machine that'll then need to be shipped over... but industrial machines look like they have to be imported over there anyway...

[dikman]

As Wiz alluded to earlier, the "bursting" problem is pretty much unavoidable when sewing leather on a machine (it's the nature of the beast). You can reduce it somewhat by playing with needle size but you won't eliminate it. The only way to get a nice hole appearance on both sides is to hand stitch! Theoretically using a pointed needle should provide the best result visually because it's not cutting the leather, and on thin leather this should work, but on thicker leather it may create problems with trying to pull the thread back up through the leather.

Sewing leather on a machine is always about compromise. If you're a perfectionist then hand stitching is the only way to go.

[Old Coach Saddlery]

I have had the juki lu and now own the dnu. I like the dnu better. Less temperamental 

[ASAuLTCases]

Hi again, sorry I missed your response, how are you getting on with your machine and needles?

asaultleatherwork@gmail.com . Hopefully we will be out of lockdown at the weekend so if you want to try out my singer and needles so you can get a real look at the difference in them let me know. If you want to bring your machine so we can have a look at it and try out some needles in yours to make sure it hasn't been messed about with in any way?

I didn't realise when I first replied that you was a lady "so arrangements can be done in the open on here for your piece of mind" 

cheers Anthony Salt ASAuLT Leatherwork.

[Bert51]

Have a look at this chart, it may help.

Bert.

[Wizcrafts]

On 6/18/2020 at 12:35 PM, sbrownn said:

What is the definition of "jump foot"?

A jump foot is a single presser foot the lifts up while the needle or awl pulls the work back, then drops down to hold it during the stitch formation cycle. A jump foot machine doesn't have an inside foot like the walking foot machines have. Originally, this mechanism was used on the old time harness stitchers of the late 1800s through early 1900s, like the Pearson, Landis, Union Lockstitch and Randall Lockstitch. 1970s through 1990s era jump foot machines included the Number 9 and Luberto Classic as well as some of the Ferdinand Bull machines. With a jump foot machine there isn't a smaller foot surrounding the needle, just a single or double toe outside foot. There is a sizeable gap between the needle hole and the inside edges of the foot, so there is much less pucker on the bottom, if any.

[mostswag]

a smooth feed dog Juki Leather Feed Dog and smooth presser feet does the job once pressured correcr, also different needles help,  warming your leather can help as well, sometimes soaping your needles can help, make sure threads weight is right for needle