Need advice (Glue fume extractor)

[Danne]

So I plan my workspace in a rather small apartment (45m2) "Sleeping area" living room and kitchen are in the "same room" not really sure about the English word (open plan?) In the left corner behind my sofa under leather storage is where my bed is placed.

I have two ideas (See Sketchup drawings) I prefer to use water based glues as long as it's possible, but for some types of watch straps I need to use nylon reinforcement and for a good adhesion I also need to use solvent based glue for this. Of course I use a respirator mask, but I would like a fume extractor. I have seen both regular ones with a hose (Which I can put outside my window when I use it) and also reciculatory filtration systems without an exhaust hose for around 400euro. But I would like some good ideas for a nice solution here. To the left of the cabinet I will have a bell knife skiving machine. In the drawing with only one drawer cabinet to the right I could have a small "glue booth" but since my space is limited it would be nice to not use up to much desk space. 

I have found this (English manual)  https://www.elfa.se/Web/Downloads/_m/an/BVX-101_mul_man.pdf

And it says "For light duty organic solvent and adhesive applications, a deep bed, activated carbon filter is recommended." And also I can mount it under my desk and save desk space. 

Ideas, solutions, links to products that would fit my working area are appreciated (It's important that it looks nice) And I don't want to pay laboratory equipment prices. 

Thanks in advance. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[fredk]

Try searching for 'airbrush spray booth' for plastic modellers. They are small, sometimes portable. One of these would do your job

example; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hobby-Airbrush-Spray-Booth-Kit-Craft-Spray-Booth-Extractor-Filter-100-240V/193475341465?hash=item2d0c076c99:g:DN0AAOSwARpdOBpc

[Spyros]

Honest question: is a tiny amount of glue on a watch strap really that dangerous?  I don't know the answer.  But I'd look for some expert advice on this first before I made any decisions.

The problem I have with devices that move air efficiently is that the ones that actually do their job well are not small, or cheap, or quiet.    Wall or window mounted vents are an elegant & cheap solution with basically no footprint, the problem is that along with the air that they extract they also extract any warmth you would have built up in your room.  Which I would think is a problem in the winter in Sweden.

Anyway sorry I don't have a solution but if there is a practical one I'd also like to know.  I'm just suspicious of small cheap devices that make big claims when it comes to moving and filtering air, from experience with woodworking dust I know that they simply don't work.  But dust is dust and fumes are fumes, maybe it's a whole different story.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Spyros

[fredk]

27 minutes ago, Spyros said:

Honest question: is a tiny amount of glue on a watch strap really that dangerous?  I don't know the answer.  But I'd look for some expert advice on this first before I made any decisions.

Most definitely YES, it can be to some people

[Spyros]

39 minutes ago, fredk said:

Most definitely YES, it can be to some people

Ι'm in trouble then LOL

I've definitely breathed way more than that in the past.   I'm much more careful these days, but yeah

[Frodo]

 

my advice to the op is to google odorless contact cement and use that. 

 

[billybopp]

If gluing isn't something you do all that often - Just open a window and put an exhaust fan there!  

- Bill

[Danne]

3 hours ago, fredk said:

Try searching for 'airbrush spray booth' for plastic modellers. They are small, sometimes portable. One of these would do your job

example; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hobby-Airbrush-Spray-Booth-Kit-Craft-Spray-Booth-Extractor-Filter-100-240V/193475341465?hash=item2d0c076c99:g:DN0AAOSwARpdOBpc

I don't really like that one, something no branded and no information about the filters, and the air blowing back directly in your face. 

[Danne]

3 hours ago, Spyros said:

Honest question: is a tiny amount of glue on a watch strap really that dangerous?  I don't know the answer.  But I'd look for some expert advice on this first before I made any decisions.

The problem I have with devices that move air efficiently is that the ones that actually do their job well are not small, or cheap, or quiet.    Wall or window mounted vents are an elegant & cheap solution with basically no footprint, the problem is that along with the air that they extract they also extract any warmth you would have built up in your room.  Which I would think is a problem in the winter in Sweden.

Anyway sorry I don't have a solution but if there is a practical one I'd also like to know.  I'm just suspicious of small cheap devices that make big claims when it comes to moving and filtering air, from experience with woodworking dust I know that they simply don't work.  But dust is dust and fumes are fumes, maybe it's a whole different story.

No, not really when wearing a respirator mask while you have your glue bottle opened and remove it when you close the bottle, a lot of the solvents are at the floor (because they are heavier than air) And as you say it's in the winter time it becomes a problem. Now I can open my window fully. But it the winter I can't and it will smell quite strong in my whole apartment. And it's not healthy, but also I don't like the strong smell. 

Yes, but this product isn't super cheap 7-800€ with bench mount. But a real exhaust fan mounted through a hole in the wall would be a lot easier and no need for filter changes and such, but I can't drill a large hole in this apartment, I don't think my landlord would like that  

Edit: You wrote "before I make any decisions" You have to first ask yourself, do you need a solvent based glue? 

Have you tried water based contact cements? I use Renia Aquilim 315 and it's super strong for leather, and some other materials too. Also Ecostick 1816b seems really popular. I have no experience with waxy/oily leathers, and I can see how a product without stitched edges in waxy/oily leather would benefit from a solvent based glue. But for regular leather I would never used solvent based glue. Send me a dm and I show you a couple of examples of products i've made with water based contact cement (without stitched top edges) and that have been used for years and i'm not worried about the glued edge.

2 hours ago, Frodo said:

 

my advice to the op is to google odorless contact cement and use that. 

 

I have tried a decent amounts of solvent based contact cements for this type of reinforcement, those that work well have a strong odor.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[Frodo]

ok...Then here is your ''fix''

measure your window, buy a piece of plywood that is that size.  Home depot will cut it for you

Have them cut a 4'' round hole in the plywood

attach this to your widow.  When you want to glue, open the window, when you are done close the window

build a box, again they will cut it for you.  Buy a bathroom vent fan ''fart fan''

attach the fan to the box,  use 4''  flex duct from fan to the window

 

[chuck123wapati]

4 hours ago, Spyros said:

Honest question: is a tiny amount of glue on a watch strap really that dangerous?  I don't know the answer.  But I'd look for some expert advice on this first before I made any decisions.

The problem I have with devices that move air efficiently is that the ones that actually do their job well are not small, or cheap, or quiet.    Wall or window mounted vents are an elegant & cheap solution with basically no footprint, the problem is that along with the air that they extract they also extract any warmth you would have built up in your room.  Which I would think is a problem in the winter in Sweden.

Anyway sorry I don't have a solution but if there is a practical one I'd also like to know.  I'm just suspicious of small cheap devices that make big claims when it comes to moving and filtering air, from experience with woodworking dust I know that they simply don't work.  But dust is dust and fumes are fumes, maybe it's a whole different story.

Honest answer: You have to read the MSDS sheet for the specific product you are using, it will tell you how dangerous it is to breath and what respirator is needed and any filtration or venting problems such as flammability. 

[Danne]

1 minute ago, Frodo said:

ok...Then here is your ''fix''

measure your window, buy a piece of plywood that is that size.  Home depot will cut it for you

Have them cut a 4'' round hole in the plywood

attach this to your widow.  When you want to glue, open the window, when you are done close the window

build a box, again they will cut it for you.  Buy a bathroom vent fan ''fart fan''

attach the fan to the box,  use 4''  flex duct from fan to the window

 

Yes, that's an awesome solution. And i wouldn't even need a box, I could have a flexible arm over my desk with something looking like this. And you gave me an excellent idea. Back in the days I had a projector, and the projector screens that work decent in a room that isn't completely dark is (and was even more expensive) So I thought about solutions to make my windows completely dark. And that solution would work for this. I don't know the English word, but the sides move in "rails". I took a photo online and added an outlet for exhaust. I can open just the bottom part of my window and look it there (like a small gap) when im finished, I remove the exhaust hose and fold everything up almost to the top of the window.

This forum is really awesome. I really appreciate your idea, simple effective and cheap.

[chuck123wapati]

If you have an exhaust fan in your bathroom or over your cook stove you can simply just do your glueing under one of those.

[Frodo]

4 inch Inline Duct Fan 100 CFM, HVAC Exhaust Intake Fan, Low Noise & Extra Long 5.5' Grounded Power Cord

Average Rating:(0.0)starsout of5starsWrite a review

Unbrand

Walmart # 584634643

connect hose to window

use 4''  dryer vent flex duct  

[Danne]

27 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

If you have an exhaust fan in your bathroom or over your cook stove you can simply just do your glueing under one of those.

Yes a good temporary solution until I have solved this, thank you

7 minutes ago, Frodo said:

4 inch Inline Duct Fan 100 CFM, HVAC Exhaust Intake Fan, Low Noise & Extra Long 5.5' Grounded Power Cord

Average Rating:(0.0)starsout of5starsWrite a review

Unbrand

Walmart # 584634643

connect hose to window

use 4''  dryer vent flex duct  

I live in Europe, but have already found similar products that will be suitable. I mean I don't think it needs to be super strong. But I will go for a more powerful fan that I can adjust. A start and stop button on my desk and a potentiometer to adjust the fan, this will be awesome. Really appreciate your idea.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[chuck123wapati]

26 minutes ago, Danne said:

Yes a good temporary solution until I have solved this, thank you

I live in Europe, but have already found similar products that will be suitable. I mean I don't think it needs to be super strong. But I will go for a more powerful fan that I can adjust. A start and stop button on my desk and a potentiometer to adjust the fan, this will be awesome. Really appreciate your idea.

A cooling fan from an old computer would work also for such small projects.

[Bert51]

I think @chuck123wapati might have a good idea there, I have used a 12 cm computer fan to remove hot air from the the back of our caravan fridge and that worked good, it moves a lot of air. Being 12 volt you don't need an electrician to set it up for you.

Sadly the older caravan fridges don't work all that good once it gets over 34 °C and along the Murray just after Christmas it's around 35 to 40 °C in the shade.

Bert.

[Danne]

23 minutes ago, Bert51 said:

I think @chuck123wapati might have a good idea there, I have used a 12 cm computer fan to remove hot air from the the back of our caravan fridge and that worked good, it moves a lot of air. Being 12 volt you don't need an electrician to set it up for you.

Sadly the older caravan fridges don't work all that good once it gets over 34 °C and along the Murray just after Christmas it's around 35 to 40 °C in the shade.

Bert.

But I think I want something a little bit more powerful.

Just did a quick drawing. (Of course the parts will not be red) But with this solution I think I can hide the hose in the bottom drawer when not in use. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[Spyros]

9 minutes ago, Danne said:

But I think I want something a little bit more powerful.

I bought mine from greenhouse supplies, it came as a set with the duct and fan speed controller.  It's powerful alright, if I forget to crack the window before I turn it on it creates such a vacuum that I literally can't open the door.  

Basically it replaces all the air in the workshop in about a minute, like I said don't expect the room to stay warm.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Spyros

[Matt S]

I'm looking at something similar for my small (150SQFT/15SQM) workshop. I have to either heat or cool it >50% of the year so just running the extractor fan is dumping expensive energy out the wall. I don't have many health issues from the fumes but don't want to develop them in the future either. Plus it's more pleasant for others to come into the workshop if they're not going to choke after 5 minutes of conversation.

What I'm looking at is the small air filtration systems aimed mainly at woodworkers. They can have active carbon filters fitted in addition to the dust filters, which supposedly are good at removing organic solvents and lower-end systems don't seem very expensive. @Danne you would have to weigh up the aesthetic and noise concerns yourself but if you could mount it near where you'll be using the glues I reckon that this will go a long way to keeping your flat less noxious.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-ac15afs-air-filter-106179

[Danne]

1 minute ago, Spyros said:

I bought mine from greenhouse supplies, it came as a set with the duct and fan speed controller.  It's powerful alright, if I forget to crack the window before I turn it on it creates such a vacuum that I literally can't open the door.  

Basically it replaces all the air in the workshop in about a minute, like I said don't expect the room to stay warm.

I have a look at it too. Not because it's 12v, installing a single phase 230v fan is easy. But I have a feeling it will be smaller things, and if they do the job as good, that's a good thing.

[Danne]

3 minutes ago, Matt S said:

I'm looking at something similar for my small (150SQFT/15SQM) workshop. I have to either heat or cool it >50% of the year so just running the extractor fan is dumping expensive energy out the wall. I don't have many health issues from the fumes but don't want to develop them in the future either. Plus it's more pleasant for others to come into the workshop if they're not going to choke after 5 minutes of conversation.

What I'm looking at is the small air filtration systems aimed mainly at woodworkers. They can have active carbon filters fitted in addition to the dust filters, which supposedly are good at removing organic solvents and lower-end systems don't seem very expensive. @Danne you would have to weigh up the aesthetic and noise concerns yourself but if you could mount it near where you'll be using the glues I reckon that this will go a long way to keeping your flat less noxious.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-ac15afs-air-filter-106179

I sent a message to the European agent of BVX-101 and asked about the filter for solvents. You can also see some clips on youtube where it's used with the filter for soldering fumes, and it seems like a good solution, because you don't need a hose out your window so you wont be dumping out energy. 

Here is a photo of the twin unit mounted under a desk, the single unit is smaller though. And I would modify it slightly so I can drill a hole in my desk (because I want my desk against the wall. Those aren't cheap around 600€ + vat + the cost of the desk mount, which you of course can make yourself.

I will update you when I get an answer, if I forget you have to remind me.

[Spyros]

21 minutes ago, Matt S said:

I'm looking at something similar for my small (150SQFT/15SQM) workshop. I have to either heat or cool it >50% of the year so just running the extractor fan is dumping expensive energy out the wall. I don't have many health issues from the fumes but don't want to develop them in the future either. Plus it's more pleasant for others to come into the workshop if they're not going to choke after 5 minutes of conversation.

What I'm looking at is the small air filtration systems aimed mainly at woodworkers. They can have active carbon filters fitted in addition to the dust filters, which supposedly are good at removing organic solvents and lower-end systems don't seem very expensive. @Danne you would have to weigh up the aesthetic and noise concerns yourself but if you could mount it near where you'll be using the glues I reckon that this will go a long way to keeping your flat less noxious.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind:
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-craft-ac15afs-air-filter-106179

Those air scrubbers work ok in smaller spaces, I think the problem you might face is that overtime the actual machine might start to stink.  I mean it collects all the particles, they're not going anywhere.

Maybe a better solution for you (and potentially for Danne) if you can afford some bench space, is to create a mini glueing station, and use a very targeted extraction in that space only.   You have your bench, then put something like a rangehood relatively low over it (just a hood, not the whole machine) attached to a duct, which will go to a greenhouse extractor mounted on some plywood in the wall or a window.   With a switch and fan speed controller close by.   That way when you're gluing under the hood you can run the fan at a very low speed and short bursts and hopefully capture most or all the fumes and send them outside while retaining your room temperature more or less.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Spyros

[Danne]

4 minutes ago, Spyros said:

Those air scrubbers work ok in smaller spaces, I think the problem you might face is that overtime the actual machine might start to stink.  I mean it collects all the particles, they're not going anywhere.

Maybe a better solution for you (and potentially for Danne) if you can afford some bench space, is to create a mini gluing station, and use a very targeted extraction in that space only.   You have your bench, then put something like a rangehood over it (just the hood, not the whole machine) attached to a duct, which will go to a greenhouse extractor mounted on some plywood in the wall or a window.   With a switch and fan speed controller close by.   That way when you're gluing you can run the fan at a very low speed and short bursts and hopefully capture most or all the fumes and send them outside while retaining your room temperature more or less.

What are your thoughts on the BVX-101 I showed? I really like it because my desk space is precious. And also I really like a clean installation where nothing is visible except the extraction hose.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[Spyros]

1 minute ago, Danne said:

What are your thoughts on the BVX-101 I showed? I really like it because my desk space is precious. And also I really like a clean installation where nothing is visible except the extraction hose.

I really don't know, it's one of those things you only know after you've used them a while. It might actually work great, i don't know. My concern with filters in general is that whatever it is you're trying to filter whether it's fumes, odours or dust, it actually stays in the room.  With dust, those machines (unless we're talking about HEPA certified over $1k machines) are notorious for mincing dust into smaller particles and releasing them back into the air.  With fumes, i don't know.  With odours, I'm concerned the actual machine/filter might start to stink overtime unless you change filters all the time.  To me the only perfect solution is to take the air and whatever is in it and send it out, but it comes with the energy downside.