Need advice (Glue fume extractor)

[Danne]

3 minutes ago, Spyros said:

I really don't know, it's one of those things you only know after you've used them a while. It might actually work great, i don't know. My concern with filters in general is that whatever it is you're trying to filter whether it's fumes, odours or dust, it actually stays in the room.  With dust, those machines (unless we're talking about HEPA certified over $1k machines) are notorious for mincing dust into smaller particles and releasing them back into the air.  With fumes, i don't know.  With odours, I'm concerned the actual machine/filter might start to stink overtime unless you change filters all the time.  To me the only perfect solution is to take the air and whatever is in it and send it out, but it comes with the energy downside.

Yes, that's the thing that worry me a little bit too, that I will have to change expensive filters very often.

I don't know if it's Hepa certified but it says "HEPA Efficiency: 99.97% at 0.3 micron" And it says it have Hepa filters.

[Matt S]

37 minutes ago, Danne said:

I sent a message to the European agent of BVX-101 and asked about the filter for solvents. You can also see some clips on youtube where it's used with the filter for soldering fumes, and it seems like a good solution, because you don't need a hose out your window so you wont be dumping out energy. 

Here is a photo of the twin unit mounted under a desk, the single unit is smaller though. And I would modify it slightly so I can drill a hole in my desk (because I want my desk against the wall. Those aren't cheap around 600€ + vat + the cost of the desk mount, which you of course can make yourself.

I will update you when I get an answer, if I forget you have to remind me.

That looks really neat and would work well for small items. Sadly for me I often need to put bigger bits of leather on my bench than there is bench space, so the goosenecks wouldn't work in my application.

26 minutes ago, Spyros said:

Those air scrubbers work ok in smaller spaces, I think the problem you might face is that overtime the actual machine might start to stink.  I mean it collects all the particles, they're not going anywhere.

Maybe a better solution for you (and potentially for Danne) if you can afford some bench space, is to create a mini gluing station, and use a very targeted extraction in that space only.   You have your bench, then put something like a rangehood over it (just the hood, not the whole machine) attached to a duct, which will go to a greenhouse extractor mounted on some plywood in the wall or a window.   With a switch and fan speed controller close by.   That way when you're gluing you can run the fan at a very low speed and short bursts and hopefully capture most or all the fumes and send them outside while retaining your room temperature more or less.

A dedicated glue bench (with glass top for easy cleaning and a vented hood) would be great, but not really practical in my limited space, especially with the long pieces of leather I frequently have to glue. I take your point about capturing smells. Not a huge amount of data on the website, I'll shoot them an email.

[Spyros]

18 minutes ago, Danne said:

Yes, that's the thing that worry me a little bit too, that I will have to change expensive filters very often.

I don't know if it's Hepa certified but it says "HEPA Efficiency: 99.97% at 0.3 micron" And it says it have Hepa filters.

yes sorry I was thinking about shop vacs when I said $1k.  This sounds like a good filter, but check the cost of replacing it.

[Danne]

5 minutes ago, Spyros said:

yes sorry I was thinking about shop vacs when I said $1k.  This sounds like a good filter, but check the cost of replacing it.

Just a quick google search and the first one I found was 92€ and pre-filter 5-pack 30€ 

But I wonder how often that hepa filter would need to be replaced. I mean even if I did this professionally full time. And let's say I would make two watch straps/day, we are talking about maybe 10 minutes a day it will be used. Because I think I rarely will use solvent based glue for other than watch straps. I have used reinforcement materials on wallets to give them structure (Vildona) and that material bonds good with Aquilim 315, good enough to leave an edge without stitching? No, but it wouldn't with solvent based glue on that material either, because it's not the glue that separates from the leather, you tear the material in two parts. 

[Retswerb]

1 hour ago, Spyros said:

With odours, I'm concerned the actual machine/filter might start to stink overtime unless you change filters all the time. 

Call me crazy, but what about mounting the filter box outside with the intake and exhaust hoses running to the workspace? Little heat loss and whatever is in the filter stays outside if you cap the lines. Probably impractical for OP, just musing.

Edit: find a way to vent the lines outside when you’re not running it.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Retswerb

[Danne]

5 minutes ago, Retswerb said:

Call me crazy, but what about mounting the filter box outside with the intake and exhaust hoses running to the workspace? Little heat loss and whatever is in the filter stays outside if you cap the lines. Probably impractical for OP, just musing.

Edit: find a way to vent the lines outside when you’re not running it.

But if vented outside then a filter wouldn't be needed?

[Retswerb]

Just thinking you could set it up to retain the heat when needed but let it ‘air out’ by outside venting when not in use. Probably overly complicated unless it was something you really needed to run for long periods of time and needed to maintain indoor temps.

[Danne]

10 minutes ago, Retswerb said:

Just thinking you could set it up to retain the heat when needed but let it ‘air out’ by outside venting when not in use. Probably overly complicated unless it was something you really needed to run for long periods of time and needed to maintain indoor temps.

The thing that complicated this is that I live in an apartment, let's say I had my own house, it would be so easy and there would be so many nice solutions. But this really need to be planned well because of space and also me being a perfectionist so I don't like if it doesn't look "clean"

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Danne said:

Just a quick google search and the first one I found was 92€ and pre-filter 5-pack 30€ 

But I wonder how often that hepa filter would need to be replaced. I mean even if I did this professionally full time. And let's say I would make two watch straps/day, we are talking about maybe 10 minutes a day it will be used. Because I think I rarely will use solvent based glue for other than watch straps. I have used reinforcement materials on wallets to give them structure (Vildona) and that material bonds good with Aquilim 315, good enough to leave an edge without stitching? No, but it wouldn't with solvent based glue on that material either, because it's not the glue that separates from the leather, you tear the material in two parts. 

. You need to get the MSDS, material safety data sheet, for what ever product you are using This will tell you what personal respirator you may need as well as what you need to use to remove the fumes, You may not even need an extractor you dont know until you read the MSDS and in the case you don't need to remove the fumes for safety concerns but simply want to remove an odor you don't like then you can get by really cheaply. Get the MSDS they are free online or on the company site, here in the US they must provide you this info. and read it then you will have the knowledge you need to buy the products you need No one here can really help you until you know this info because they don't know either. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by chuck123wapati

[Danne]

12 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

. You need to get the MSDS, material safety data sheet, for what ever product you are using This will tell you what personal respirator you may need as well as what you need to use to remove the fumes, You may not even need an extractor you dont know until you read the MSDS and in the case you don't need to remove the fumes for safety concerns but simply want to remove an odor you don't like then you can get by really cheaply. Get the MSDS they are free online or on the company site, here in the US they must provide you this info. and read it then you will have the knowledge you need to buy the products you need No one here can really help you until you know this info because they don't know either. 

I have the MSDS for all my solvent based glues. But with tests I have probably decided which one I will use. And the hazardous solvents are Xylene, Ethyl acetate and acetone. I have a A1-filter right now but I have to look for something else because acetone have a boiling point below 65c

 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Danne said:

I have the MSDS for all my solvent based glues. But with tests I have probably decided which one I will use. And the hazardous solvents are Xylene, Ethyl acetate and acetone. I have a A1-filter right now but I have to look for something else because acetone have a boiling point below 65c

 

Thats good most folks dont know what an MSDS is. i found this quote might help. Since tiny gas molecules such as Acetone and Formaldehyde will pass right through HEPA filters, air cleaners Acetone removal must contain advanced gas filters besides just efficient air purifier HEPA filters which catch the tiniest of particulates, but not gases.

[Danne]

55 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

Thats good most folks dont know what an MSDS is. i found this quote might help. Since tiny gas molecules such as Acetone and Formaldehyde will pass right through HEPA filters, air cleaners Acetone removal must contain advanced gas filters besides just efficient air purifier HEPA filters which catch the tiniest of particulates, but not gases.

Interesting.

I did a little bit more research about that fume extraction unit (BVX-101) and it seems like the HEPA-filter is not the suitable filter for solvents. But I can't find any data sheet on the filter. (I have looked on the producers website)

"For use in light to medium soldering and clean rooms, a 99.997% HEPA / activated carbon gas filtration main filter is recommended. For light duty organic solvent and adhesive applications, a deep bed, activated carbon filter is recommended. In both applications, a dual stage pre-filter is provided to retain the large particles that can reduce filter efficiency and life."

I mean "For light duty organic solvent and adhesive applications" that's a vague description, but we see when they answer my mail. I included MSDS when I asked about the product.

But as mentioned here in the thread, an exhaust fan that sucks out the fumes out the window will be so much easier, I don't have to think about different filters, replacing filters, and also it will be cheaper. I think I will spend some time thinking about a clean solution for an exhaust fan, in combination with a respirator mask with the correct filter and I certainly don't have to worry, I mean I will only use solvent based glue when making some types of watch straps (thicker padding), flat watch straps and I use a reinforcement that works fine with water based glue. 

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Danne

[Northmount]

As mentioned, HEPA filters are NOT for gases or vapours, just for dust.

Respirators have filters available for organic solvents.  If you use the same materials for recirculating air back to your room, you will find that it has to be capped off tight when not in use, otherwise next time you go to use it, its vapour absorbing capability has been used up just on ambient air.  Since you are moving more air than what you would with a respirator, it also needs to be much larger than the respirator filter! 

Activated carbon filters work, but again must be capped off when not in use to save its capabilities. 

Regardless of what your filter material is, you also need to test the filter to see if it is working.  So you put a fume source next to the inlet of the filter, and sniff the air at the outlet.  If you can smell the glue/solvent, the filter needs replacement.

The best has been mentioned above several times; extract the air and dump it outside.  Since you are only doing small jobs from time to time, the heat loss is inconsequential.  Not like you are using an auto spray booth with huge volumes of air removal that must be made up with filtered conditioned, heated air.

If you want to run something full time for 8 hours per day and are concerned about wasting all that nice warm air, then you should look for a small air to air heat exchanger.  Draw fresh air from outside, dump it into the room, exhaust from your gluing station to the outside.  Keep about 3 to 6 feet between fresh air inlet and the exhaust outlet to prevent recycling the fumes back to your work space.  Many high efficiency homes are now built with air to air heat exchangers, so they are available in many different sizes and different types of control.  Unless you are using it a lot, you will find that payback will likely be around 10 years or so at a guess. 

I have a residential air to air heat exchanger that was built about 30 years ago as a research project.  I have it installed in my workshop attic and use it to supply tempered air to a hood/helmet that I use when doing dusty wood work, or applying paint or varnish to projects.  It exhausts room air and exchanges heat with the incoming air to the helmet (works winter or summer).  Means I am tethered to a hose which is not all that convenient at times.  Means no one else can be in the shop at the same time as they have no protection.  It sure saves me a lot of headaches and sinus problems.

Tom

 

[Danne]

18 minutes ago, Northmount said:

As mentioned, HEPA filters are NOT for gases or vapours, just for dust.

Respirators have filters available for organic solvents.  If you use the same materials for recirculating air back to your room, you will find that it has to be capped off tight when not in use, otherwise next time you go to use it, its vapour absorbing capability has been used up just on ambient air.  Since you are moving more air than what you would with a respirator, it also needs to be much larger than the respirator filter! 

Activated carbon filters work, but again must be capped off when not in use to save its capabilities. 

Regardless of what your filter material is, you also need to test the filter to see if it is working.  So you put a fume source next to the inlet of the filter, and sniff the air at the outlet.  If you can smell the glue/solvent, the filter needs replacement.

The best has been mentioned above several times; extract the air and dump it outside.  Since you are only doing small jobs from time to time, the heat loss is inconsequential.  Not like you are using an auto spray booth with huge volumes of air removal that must be made up with filtered conditioned, heated air.

If you want to run something full time for 8 hours per day and are concerned about wasting all that nice warm air, then you should look for a small air to air heat exchanger.  Draw fresh air from outside, dump it into the room, exhaust from your gluing station to the outside.  Keep about 3 to 6 feet between fresh air inlet and the exhaust outlet to prevent recycling the fumes back to your work space.  Many high efficiency homes are now built with air to air heat exchangers, so they are available in many different sizes and different types of control.  Unless you are using it a lot, you will find that payback will likely be around 10 years or so at a guess. 

I have a residential air to air heat exchanger that was built about 30 years ago as a research project.  I have it installed in my workshop attic and use it to supply tempered air to a hood/helmet that I use when doing dusty wood work, or applying paint or varnish to projects.  It exhausts room air and exchanges heat with the incoming air to the helmet (works winter or summer).  Means I am tethered to a hose which is not all that convenient at times.  Means no one else can be in the shop at the same time as they have no protection.  It sure saves me a lot of headaches and sinus problems.

Tom

 

Thank you for this information, I also think the best solution will be to exhaust the fumes/air. Also if I would do this full time eight hours a day, I would need a larger place like a shop/atelier and then I could figure out a better solution if I would use solvent based glues a lot during the days.

[Frodo]

you need something in the range of 100 / 150 cfm's anything under 100 cfm is not going to be enough exhaust

You need to install a dryer vent vent cap outside the window.  it has a flapper that closes when the fan is off and does not let air back into the room from outside

 

[Danne]

10 minutes ago, Frodo said:

you need something in the range of 100 / 150 cfm's anything under 100 cfm is not going to be enough exhaust

You need to install a dryer vent vent cap outside the window.  it has a flapper that closes when the fan is off and does not let air back into the room from outside

 

Thanks for the air flow value. 

I think I will do like in the post I made earlier (see my link) Open the window just slightly and lock it so it's a small gap, take down the roller blind that goes in a channel on the sides, connect the the hose and start the fan. I can't think of another solution, because I have windows that you fold like this: