Two coin pouches and some questions

[Alaisiagae]

I made two coin pouches. I used the Tandy "2 pocket coin purse" as a template, but only did one pocket because I wanted to keep the thickness down. I used some oil tan scraps I bought at the store and cut them out using razor scissors. The first pouch I did is in black with black thread. I wasn't happy with it because the margin on one side is wider than the other side. So I made a brown one (after 3 failed attempts). I used diamond chisels to make the holes. The thread is not anything special, just what I bought at Tandy. 

Despite reading many tips on how to make the holes in the corners, it is much easier said than done! Despite using my oversitcher wheel, I did have to fudge some holes along the bottom right of the brown pouch, and when I used my single-point chisel I was not aware that I was holding it the wrong way and thus have a vertical diamond hole. Oops.

Question: why does my saddle stitch look like zig-zags (slanted with a gap) on one side and normal (straight, no gaps between stitches) on the other side? On the black piece, the stitching looks normal on the back and zig-zag on the front. On the brown piece, the stitching looks normal on the front and zig-zag on the back.The only thing I can think of is that I did the "cross over" of the needles wrong. I did not put them in the hole simultaneously, because in the past I have broken needles that way. So I threaded one hole first (needle #1), and then played "catch up" with needle #2, while holding down needle #1's thread so that it didn't get in the way (both needles' threads being on the same side of the hole when I started to "catch up"). On the black pouch, I did this on the front of the piece; on the brown pouch, I did this on the back.

Do you think I should get more leather and try again? Or do you think these are okay enough to be gifts? I am my own worst critic!

Edited September 18, 2020 by Alaisiagae

[blue duck]

Welcome to the world of saddle stitching. For starters i would go to Nigel Armitage on youtube and vimeo. An excellent teacher! Once you learn the basics the main thing is to make sure no matter how you do it, it is done the same every single stitch. Each needle goes in the same place, same side first, thread crosses, etc. After that it is just practice.

[Tugadude]

Couple of things might be going on.  First, which diamond chisels do you have?  And how many teeth?  Do you have a 2-tooth chisel?  You'll want to use a 2-tooth chisel to do the radiused portions.  Corners only exist if you square off the stitching really, like a 90 degree angle.  In that case, you want a round hole, not a diamond-shaped hole in order for the stitching to look the same on both sides of the hole.  Nigel Armitage calls this a "hinge" and trust me, it looks far better than trying to use a flat awl or a diamond-shaped chisel.

So use your big chisel, 4 to 10 tooth or whatever up until it begins curving and then you switch to the 2-tooth until it flattens out again and repeat as necessary.

As far as the orientation of the stitches, you have to choose which side of the work you wish to be the "front", even if technically both sides could be considered a "front".  Then stay consistent with your needle priority.

There is usually a difference between the front and the back stitching lines.  It can be minimized using various techniques and adding a cast to the stitching process, basically a half-knot.  This is explained in Nigel's videos on stitching.

Another thing that greatly affects the angle of the stitching is the overall thickness of the leather.  Very thin leather makes it hard to get a good angle on the back.  I find the more layers I'm working with the better the backside is going to appear.  

So if you haven't already, please take the time to go to youtube and look at Nigel's videos.  He talks at great length on stitching chisels, how they are properly used, how they differ from pricking irons, etc.  He covers the basic saddle stitch in detail and you'll find it very informative.

Good luck!

And by the way, your projects would be cherished if you were to give them away "as-is".  They were lovingly handmade.  What's better than that?

[Alaisiagae]

@Tugadude I have the Craftool diamond hole chisel set. It comes in three spacing widths, with 2, 4, and 6 teeth (and a single 1 tooth). I used the tightest width (3/32") for the brown pouch, and the middle width (1/8") for the black pouch. I did use the 2 tooth chisel when making the corners, but I may have lined it up poorly or at a suboptimal angle along my stitching line (I'm thinking of the left front radiused corner on the brown pouch. The right side looks good). 

Okay, so it's normal to have the front and back stitching look different? That's a relief, at least I know what to expect now. I think the pieces I worked with are in the 4/5 oz range (I'd have to use my thickness gauge on it to be sure). Much thicker than the thin veg tan that came in the Tandy kit, and thus why I opted for a single pocket rather than a bulkier 2 pocket pouch. I could buy thinner oil tan (I really enjoyed working with it, so flexible and pretty!)...

I plan to give them to my uncle for the holidays, and fill them with those chocolate coins you see at Christmas time. ^_^

I admit, I was wanting for a better cutting implement when cutting out the leather. Keeping my scissors from skewing (yaw or pitch?) was hard, and I don't like using my utility knife (pull-cut). But those round/head knives look intimidating with a hard learning curve. Even the tools I used for these pouches had their own learning curves that I'm still working on, and they are not as finicky as a knife blade. Are 1/4 round/head knives easier? I saw Jo on JH Leather use one, it didn't look as scary as a head knife.

I will try to watch some Armitage videos. Sometimes I like watching videos, other times it is hard for me to sit still (depends if my meds have worn off or not). 

 

[Retswerb]

Did you hammer your stitches flat once you were done? That can help the overall presentation of your stitching lines too.

Keep going, learn from each piece and improve as you go - but these that you’ve made are lovely gifts.

[Tugadude]

43 minutes ago, Alaisiagae said:

@Tugadude I have the Craftool diamond hole chisel set. It comes in three spacing widths, with 2, 4, and 6 teeth (and a single 1 tooth). I used the tightest width (3/32") for the brown pouch, and the middle width (1/8") for the black pouch. I did use the 2 tooth chisel when making the corners, but I may have lined it up poorly or at a suboptimal angle along my stitching line (I'm thinking of the left front radiused corner on the brown pouch. The right side looks good). 

Okay, so it's normal to have the front and back stitching look different? That's a relief, at least I know what to expect now. I think the pieces I worked with are in the 4/5 oz range (I'd have to use my thickness gauge on it to be sure). Much thicker than the thin veg tan that came in the Tandy kit, and thus why I opted for a single pocket rather than a bulkier 2 pocket pouch. I could buy thinner oil tan (I really enjoyed working with it, so flexible and pretty!)...

I plan to give them to my uncle for the holidays, and fill them with those chocolate coins you see at Christmas time. ^_^

I admit, I was wanting for a better cutting implement when cutting out the leather. Keeping my scissors from skewing (yaw or pitch?) was hard, and I don't like using my utility knife (pull-cut). But those round/head knives look intimidating with a hard learning curve. Even the tools I used for these pouches had their own learning curves that I'm still working on, and they are not as finicky as a knife blade. Are 1/4 round/head knives easier? I saw Jo on JH Leather use one, it didn't look as scary as a head knife.

I will try to watch some Armitage videos. Sometimes I like watching videos, other times it is hard for me to sit still (depends if my meds have worn off or not). 

 

Have you tried a Fiskars rotary knife?  They don't drag or stretch the leather.  

[fredk]

Are you pulling your threads through in a consistent way.

Supporting the project in a sewing clamp; When I sew, as the thread from the right side goes though the hole to the left side I pull the thread back towards my body, and the thread going from right to left is fed through the hole on the side away from my body and is then pulled tight away from my body. Then this right-left thread becomes right to left on the next hole

[jcuk]

6 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

I admit, I was wanting for a better cutting implement when cutting out the leather. Keeping my scissors from skewing (yaw or pitch?) was hard, and I don't like using my utility knife (pull-cut). But those round/head knives look intimidating with a hard learning curve. Even the tools I used for these pouches had their own learning curves that I'm still working on, and they are not as finicky as a knife blade. Are 1/4 round/head knives easier? I saw Jo on JH Leather use one, it didn't look as scary as a head knife.

Try a single head knife a lot less daunting than a double head knife/round knife spend a day cutting shapes out of scrap leather also pratice skiving with it just remember to keep you're free hand behind the cutting edge, it is the right tool for the job. Be mindful of some of of the videos on youtube of people using a round knife, have to say some frighten me watching them. There is another knife that might be easier for you working with lighter weight of leather  its called a clicker knife but it is a a pull cut type of knife.

single head head knife

https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk/product-page/saddlers-head-knife

clicker knife the curved blade, good for tight corners.

https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk/product-page/extension-clicker-handle

Hope this helps 

JCUK

 

[Alaisiagae]

I watched the Armitage video and I think I know how to do it correctly now. But I also have a choice - I can make the stitching line a "proper" zig-zag, or I can do a straight line, which is probably what most laypersons think of as "regular/proper" stitching. When you make stuff for other people, do they like the zig-zag or are they all "why is your stitching slanted"? Because I'm thinking maybe I will purposefully make the stitching line flat/linear so it looks "normal." 

[fredk]

1 hour ago, Alaisiagae said:

. . . But I also have a choice - I can make the stitching line a "proper" zig-zag, or I can do a straight line, which is probably what most laypersons think of as "regular/proper" stitching. When you make stuff for other people, do they like the zig-zag or are they all "why is your stitching slanted"? Because I'm thinking maybe I will purposefully make the stitching line flat/linear so it looks "normal." 

Actually, my customers/clients don't care a sausage. As long as the sewing is neat and fairly consistent

[Retswerb]

In my experience people may not be expecting the zig zag stitch but if it is done well they love it. If anyone questions it you can say it’s a sign of handmade stitching done with skill and care.

[Alaisiagae]

I pulled out and redid the stitching on the brown pouch, got it to mostly zigzag correctly except for that errant vertical hole (facepalm). Having my stitching pony would have been helpful! But it's not quite ready to be used until my dad and I finish putting varnish on it (he insisted on using the slow drying varnish with an air brush, which I have no idea how to use), it needs one more coat.

[tsunkasapa]

I would add; Use an awl and lose the chisels. You will NEVER regret it!!!!!

[Tugadude]

4 hours ago, jcuk said:

Try a single head knife a lot less daunting than a double head knife/round knife spend a day cutting shapes out of scrap leather also pratice skiving with it just remember to keep you're free hand behind the cutting edge, it is the right tool for the job. Be mindful of some of of the videos on youtube of people using a round knife, have to say some frighten me watching them. There is another knife that might be easier for you working with lighter weight of leather  its called a clicker knife but it is a a pull cut type of knife.

single head head knife

https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk/product-page/saddlers-head-knife

clicker knife the curved blade, good for tight corners.

https://www.georgebarnsleyandsons.co.uk/product-page/extension-clicker-handle

Hope this helps 

JCUK

 

The quote attributed to me is incorrect.  That is what the OP said.

[fredk]

10 hours ago, Alaisiagae said:

Do you think I should get more leather and try again? Or do you think these are okay enough to be gifts? . . . .

1. No. not really, but practice does make us better at this lark

2. Yes, but slick those edges first

[Danne]

Regarding the cutting. To avoid the leather stretching make one primary shallow cut and make sure to put some extra pressure on your ruler (or template) at the end of the cut. When you have made your first primary cut you make one or more cuts until you go through the leather. And make sure you always have a sharp knife. If you use as "snap-off knife" I like Olfa Black max blades. 

Regarding the stitching, personally I think it looks best with a stitch where you cast the thread, but there are several factors that decide what you should do. I give a couple of examples.

If you stitch a pocket edge and the back side of the stitching is inside the pocket (not visible) then it's better to stitch "regular" without casting the thread. (Especially if it's thin leather)

If I stitch a top edge on a wallet and the total thickness is around 1.3-1.5mm and I use let's say red thread and the exterior is black and interior red, I would stitch without cast, inside will be straight, but the exterior will have a similar look all the way around.

Let's instead take my latest wallets I shared here with black exterior and orange interior and the outer stitch is black, here I choose to cast all the way around (stitched from the outside) Why, and how? I cast and I don't use extreme angles when I tension the thread which gives me a nice slant on the inside (where I have a large contrast between leather and thread. On the exterior top part the stitch straightens out because it's relatively thin, but since the thread have the same color as the leather it still looks good. Is it possible to stitch a edge around 1.5-2mm  in total thickness with a nice slant on both sides? yes with thinner thread in combination with slim holes, or with (X-punching, punched holes with the same iron from both sides before assemble and stitch without cast) And it's even possible with slightly thicker thread (which for me is 0.45-0.51mm (Two weights of thread from Meisi and Sajou) but it's not easy, and requires different tension angles and tension depending on the stiffness of the leather you are using.

I always decide what will get the best result. Let's say I would make a super thin strap around 1.5-1.8mm and I use a thread with the thickness around 0.3-0.35mm the exterior is red, and lining is black, and I stitch with black thread, I would not cast the thread to make sure I get a nice even slanted front on my strap. A straight stitch on the back side doesn't have to look bad if you are consistent (and when you stitch a new type of leather make a test piece where you try different angles and tension. I hope this help a little bit (Ps. I still struggle with stitching, sometimes the result is really good, other times it doesn't really look like I wish it would, but NEVER change tension angles while you stitch if you are not satisfied, a consistent stitch is still the most important part. 

[Alaisiagae]

21 minutes ago, fredk said:

1. No. not really, but practice does make us better at this lark

2. Yes, but slick those edges first

I tried using gum trag on a spare piece, and the edge just wouldn't slick like veg tan. 

@Danne what does "cast" mean in this context?

@jcuk the knives look good! I wish that single head was sold in the US, shipping from UK costs as much as the knife.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Alaisiagae

[Danne]

I forgot to say something. A perfect result is not the important part, BUT to always try to improve is important. When you have made something, and you look at it and see a couple of things you feel you need to improve, you don't need to improve everything, instead focus on one thing, and think through "How can I improve this?" if you feel unsure, maybe take some small off cuts and make some test pieces, like cutting a small rounded corner and mark it with your wing divider and stitch it. And in a year you can look back and compare and you will see how much you have improved. 

Also the second coin pouch with the pronounced grain makes it harder for you, choose a flat leather like a slightly stiffer flat veg tan, which will be a lot easier to work with.

[fredk]

5 minutes ago, Alaisiagae said:

I tried using gum trag on a spare piece, and the edge just wouldn't slick like veg tan. 

try rubbing some bees wax on it.

Place the pouch down on a board or slab with just a couple of millimetres sticking over the edge. Hold it down really tight with one hand and with the other run a block of beeswax along the edge.

Edited September 18, 2020 by fredk

[Danne]

4 minutes ago, Alaisiagae said:

I tried using gum trag on a spare piece, and the edge just wouldn't slick like veg tan. 

@Danne what does "cast" mean in this context?

@jcuk the knives look good! I wish that single head was sold in the US, shipping from UK costs as much as the knife.

Here in the first and second stitch he show the difference between not casting the thread and casting the thread. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQK8R0oYT8o

[Alaisiagae]

19 minutes ago, fredk said:

try rubbing some bees wax on it.

Place the pouch down on a board or slab with just a couple of millimetres sticking over the edge. Hold it down really tight with one hand and with the other run a block of beeswax along the edge.

My beeswax is so hard and old, I don't think it will work like that. Good tip, though, thank you.

@Danne interesting, thank you for linking that video. 

[fredk]

2 hours ago, Alaisiagae said:

My beeswax is so hard and old, I don't think it will work like that. Good tip, though, thank you.

get a small heat proof dish, like a ramekin, put your wax in it, add a very, very, very  small amount of either neetsfoot oil or a vegetable oil such as extra virgin olive oil - no, not Popeye's gurl friend! - melt together in an oven or on top of a cooker. Stir it as it melts. Pour it into something like a silicon ice cube tray so as it sets you'll have a block of softer bees wax

I keep a cheap silicon ice cube tray to pour molten beeswax into to make wax blocks. I usually leave them in it until I need one.

[tsunkasapa]

3 hours ago, Alaisiagae said:

I tried using gum trag on a spare piece, and the edge just wouldn't slick like veg tan. 

@Danne what does "cast" mean in this context?

@jcuk the knives look good! I wish that single head was sold in the US, shipping from UK costs as much as the knife.

Try rubbing the edge with a bit of saddle soap.

[jcuk]

12 hours ago, Tugadude said:

The quote attributed to me is incorrect.  That is what the OP said.

Sorry about that did not check where i got the quote from did not scroll up enough.

JCUK

Edited September 19, 2020 by jcuk

[jcuk]

11 hours ago, Alaisiagae said:

I tried using gum trag on a spare piece, and the edge just wouldn't slick like veg tan. 

@Danne what does "cast" mean in this context?

@jcuk the knives look good! I wish that single head was sold in the US, shipping from UK costs as much as the knife.

Not sure if this helps.

JCUK