Recommendations?

[sonnyboone]

Hi Leather working friends!  This is my first post on the forum.  I'm happy to be here and to be getting more involved in leather work.  I'm sure this question has been beat to death, and if there's a comprehensive thread please point me there!  Otherwise, here it is :

I've been diving in head first and have purchased a wide range of tools, from Tandy (Craft tool) and CS Osbourne to Sinabroks.  I'm seeing a huge disparity in quality and also a lack of transparency in the materials used, especially in steel and heat treat but also place of manufacture.  I've seen that Chartermade has this info available... but I'm wondering if you can make other recommendations on where to buy good quality, long lasting tools that hold their value and have specific info on the materials used.  Having dabbled in knife making, I've ended up making some of my own knives because of this - but I'd rather not!  It seems crazy to me that with so many excellent tool steels available - I'm having to strop my leather tools with every use. Surely there's a better way!

Right now I'm specifically looking for a high quality #0 edge beveler.

Thanks in advance!

Edited September 26, 2020 by sonnyboone

[tsunkasapa]

You ALWAYS strop your tools for every use. That is just a fact of life.

[sonnyboone]

1 hour ago, tsunkasapa said:

You ALWAYS strop your tools for every use. That is just a fact of life.

I don't mind stropping, and do so for upkeep of all my cutting tools.  The core of my question is more about quality and transparency, specifically concerning leather cutting tools and the steels and heat treats.  If you have some recommendations It'd be great to check them out.

[Hardrada]

Kyoshin Elle for the edger. Get it at goodsjapan.com.

[chrisash]

Really it's impossible to say, few will give what steel is used. some of the well known names make good workmans tools that will last for years and generally have quite basic Beech handles etc, whilst some have fantastic high prices and it appears your paying either for the name or the fancy wood

Of your choice Craft tools are run of the mill items that are reasonably priced and do a basic job, where as Abbey,England or Osborne are what you would call tradesman's tools sold under their name but who knows where they were made

Nigel Armitage does a good series on tools and is a master leatherworker so his selection may be a good guide for you and he also has a vimeo site https://www.youtube.com/c/NigelArmitage/videos

[sonnyboone]

3 hours ago, Hardrada said:

Kyoshin Elle for the edger. Get it at goodsjapan.com.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check them out.

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

Really it's impossible to say, few will give what steel is used. some of the well known names make good workmans tools that will last for years and generally have quite basic Beech handles etc, whilst some have fantastic high prices and it appears your paying either for the name or the fancy wood

Of your choice Craft tools are run of the mill items that are reasonably priced and do a basic job, where as Abbey,England or Osborne are what you would call tradesman's tools sold under their name but who knows where they were made

Nigel Armitage does a good series on tools and is a master leatherworker so his selection may be a good guide for you and he also has a vimeo site https://www.youtube.com/c/NigelArmitage/videos

It seems strange that so many leather hand tool companies don't put that information up front.  I'll keep digging.

Thanks for the link to Nigel's channel.  I've come across it a few times but will have a deeper dive into his videos.

[chrisash]

I doubt that if you posted a steel type that you considered the best for the job, there would be loads of posts that say something else is better

For the leather workers does it make any difference as long as it does what they want after all most tools are not stupid money, its not like you are spending on a top sports car

Are not some Hermes bags now made in the Far East but sold as Hermes France just like many other items, I doubt Cowboy sewing machines are made in the USA

[sonnyboone]

For me it's just about making an informed choice and knowing the type of tool steel and the hardness is part of my personal decision making process when buying cutting tools.

It's been hard to come by on many leather tool seller's sites but it's nice to see that a lot of the Japanese tools on the Goodsjapan.com site have that info.  I'm going to have a look a Barry King's tools too.  It seems like they come highly recommended.

I'm not too concerned about where something is made as long as the quality is there.

No doubt some tools will work better for different people and their preferences.   I try and stay way clear of those arguments!  Thanks for the input!

[chuck123wapati]

11 hours ago, sonnyboone said:

I don't mind stropping, and do so for upkeep of all my cutting tools.  The core of my question is more about quality and transparency, specifically concerning leather cutting tools and the steels and heat treats.  If you have some recommendations It'd be great to check them out.

back in the day tools , even knives didn't have much info on the steels used nowadays the trend by consumers is that every detail of an item is considered before purchase. As for steels the relevance of steel type isn't as important as how the steel was tempered during the construction process but most folks dont realize this aspect and tend towards opinions rendered on line by the most votes. As for stropping, polishing, sharpening whatever you want to call it depending on method of choice of leather tools i will say leather is very hard on edges so the process is needed more frequently than some tools less than others. If your tools seem to soft tempered you can re temper them if you still have your knife making equipment. My beef with the tool selection is the quality of stamps and the quality of the imprint they leave, some you buy are the direct result of the manufacturing processes now a days i feel most mass produced tools are the product of people who never use them or understand just what they are trying to do with them besides making a buck selling them. If you want quality tools your going to have to spend the money for quality tools i haven't found a middle of the road good leather tool company as yet. 

[sonnyboone]

16 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

back in the day tools , even knives didn't have much info on the steels used nowadays the trend by consumers is that every detail of an item is considered before purchase. As for steels the relevance of steel type isn't as important as how the steel was tempered during the construction process but most folks dont realize this aspect and tend towards opinions rendered on line by the most votes. As for stropping, polishing, sharpening whatever you want to call it depending on method of choice of leather tools i will say leather is very hard on edges so the process is needed more frequently than some tools less than others. If your tools seem to soft tempered you can re temper them if you still have your knife making equipment. My beef with the tool selection is the quality of stamps and the quality of the imprint they leave, some you buy are the direct result of the manufacturing processes now a days i feel most mass produced tools are the product of people who never use them or understand just what they are trying to do with them besides making a buck selling them. If you want quality tools your going to have to spend the money for quality tools i haven't found a middle of the road good leather tool company as yet. 

I do have some knife making tools still but to re-do the heat treat and temper I would still need to know the steel since some are oil hardened, air hardened, brine etc, etc.  I've been playing around a bit making some leather knives and ended up making a edger to test this morning to try to hold me over while I'm trying to decide what to get.  I do notice a big difference in hardness from the O1 that I'm using vs some of my Tandy mystery steel.  Maybe making is the way to go?  I feel like buying the tools is a good way to get a point of reference if I do decide to make more.

I haven't jumped into stamping yet but it's next on the list.  I have a small Sherline mill and am wondering about converting it to cnc to try and cut diy stamps.  Like I need another hobby....  While on that topic, if you have any recommendations on shops that produce stamps I'd love to hear those too. 

I definitely agree, if you want quality you usually have to pay.  If there's no middle of the road leather tool company maybe there's a market opportunity there!

[chuck123wapati]

12 minutes ago, sonnyboone said:

I do have some knife making tools still but to re-do the heat treat and temper I would still need to know the steel since some are oil hardened, air hardened, brine etc, etc.  I've been playing around a bit making some leather knives and ended up making a edger to test this morning to try to hold me over while I'm trying to decide what to get.  I do notice a big difference in hardness from the O1 that I'm using vs some of my Tandy mystery steel.  Maybe making is the way to go?  I feel like buying the tools is a good way to get a point of reference if I do decide to make more.

I haven't jumped into stamping yet but it's next on the list.  I have a small Sherline mill and am wondering about converting it to cnc to try and cut diy stamps.  Like I need another hobby....  While on that topic, if you have any recommendations on shops that produce stamps I'd love to hear those too. 

I definitely agree, if you want quality you usually have to pay.  If there's no middle of the road leather tool company maybe there's a market opportunity there!

your right about not knowing the steel or tempering techniques for sure but the way i figure it is if the tool is junk it may be worth the try and you may get lucky. My self i make my own cutting tools, awls and even some of the basic stamps, my mill is a set of hand files lol. If you do buy Tandy stamps then try and get older ones as they were much better quality, same with the cutting tools IMO. Once the mass producing world turned to relying  on minimum standards for manufacturing  stuff the quality went way down they simply don't test every tool for temper but rely on the sendit back method. I think there is a niche for leather tools made well with no frills but it may not be big enough to pan out.

[sonnyboone]

3 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

your right about not knowing the steel or tempering techniques for sure but the way i figure it is if the tool is junk it may be worth the try and you may get lucky. My self i make my own cutting tools, awls and even some of the basic stamps, my mill is a set of hand files lol. If you do buy Tandy stamps then try and get older ones as they were much better quality, same with the cutting tools IMO. Once the mass producing world turned to relying  on minimum standards for manufacturing  stuff the quality went way down they simply don't test every tool for temper but rely on the sendit back method. I think there is a niche for leather tools made well with no frills but it may not be big enough to pan out.

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!

[mike02130]

I see a lot of knives that are D2 steel.  Japanese blacksmith made knives are made with Hitatchi blue or white steel.

[johnv474]

I recommend Kevin Lee tools, kevinleathertools.com  

Most of his cutting tools are made from D2, which is a real workhorse.

Sure, it would be nice to have CPM-S110V or CPM-M4, but even with those, the specific heat treatment makes a big difference.  I own some knives with some nicer metals, but not all of them are necessarily good for an edger.

I would be surprised if many tool makers would give out the details of their process, considering the R&D they put into it and how giving out that information arms their enemies.  It's also expensive information to give out for relatively inexpensive tools.

You might be able to get a category of steel, and the resulting hardness after heat treat, perhaps.

Frankly, any of the edgers on the market can work just fine, and the cheapest and the most expensive can get identically sharp.

[chuck123wapati]

49 minutes ago, johnv474 said:

I recommend Kevin Lee tools, kevinleathertools.com  

Most of his cutting tools are made from D2, which is a real workhorse.

Sure, it would be nice to have CPM-S110V or CPM-M4, but even with those, the specific heat treatment makes a big difference.  I own some knives with some nicer metals, but not all of them are necessarily good for an edger.

I would be surprised if many tool makers would give out the details of their process, considering the R&D they put into it and how giving out that information arms their enemies.  It's also expensive information to give out for relatively inexpensive tools.

You might be able to get a category of steel, and the resulting hardness after heat treat, perhaps.

Frankly, any of the edgers on the market can work just fine, and the cheapest and the most expensive can get identically sharp.

Hardening and tempering details are easy to obtain from the steel manufactures they aren't secret by any means. Its how well  the tool makers can reproduce with certainty the process every time that create better tool makers than others. Type of high carbon steel used is just a part of the equation imo and not as important as in the end its a mater of the finished hardness and temper being correct for the tool and work it will be doing. I agree with you the cheapest and most expensive can be just as sharp. 

[sonnyboone]

3 hours ago, johnv474 said:

I recommend Kevin Lee tools, kevinleathertools.com  

Most of his cutting tools are made from D2, which is a real workhorse.

Sure, it would be nice to have CPM-S110V or CPM-M4, but even with those, the specific heat treatment makes a big difference.  I own some knives with some nicer metals, but not all of them are necessarily good for an edger.

I would be surprised if many tool makers would give out the details of their process, considering the R&D they put into it and how giving out that information arms their enemies.  It's also expensive information to give out for relatively inexpensive tools.

You might be able to get a category of steel, and the resulting hardness after heat treat, perhaps.

Frankly, any of the edgers on the market can work just fine, and the cheapest and the most expensive can get identically sharp.

 

I would agree that you can likely get a comparable edge on most tools, assuming that they have a decent amount of carbon in the alloy.  Edge retention results would vary though.  I've had great experiences with D2 so I'll have to check him out. It's a solid tool steel.... Thanks for the recommend.

 

2 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Hardening and tempering details are easy to obtain from the steel manufactures they aren't secret by any means. Its how well  the tool makers can reproduce with certainty the process every time that create better tool makers than others. Type of high carbon steel used is just a part of the equation imo and not as important as in the end its a mater of the finished hardness and temper being correct for the tool and work it will be doing. I agree with you the cheapest and most expensive can be just as sharp. 

Agreed.  All the manufacturers have spec sheets for the heat treat.  With a digitally controlled kiln it's fairly easy to get repeatable results.  I was an avid knife collector and have tried most of the steels out.

I'd say there's an cavernous difference between good and bad, but less of a difference and more preference between all the good steels.