Thread Sizing

[91bird]

As I'm trying to come up to speed on thread size, needles, machines, and material my head is spinning.  I've found guides showing thread to needle correlation.  Is there a correlation of thread size to material thickness?    

I'm going to be starting with making belts out of 2 layers of Type 13 nylon webbing, each layer 0.1 inches thick.  Then move into leather belts up to 1/4 thick.  I've not found a good guide of thread thickness to material thickness that would drive a sewing machine selection.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Kcstott]

I've never seen anything referencing thread size to material thickness unless it was concerning breaking strength. doesn't mean it don't exist.
My advice on belts is, Do you want to see the stitches or not? if you do then the bigger the thread the better. if you don't then a #96 or 138 Polyester thread for UV resistance.  

[nylonRigging]

8 hours ago, 91bird said:

As I'm trying to come up to speed on thread size, needles, machines, and material my head is spinning.  I've found guides showing thread to needle correlation.  Is there a correlation of thread size to material thickness?    

I'm going to be starting with making belts out of 2 layers of Type 13 nylon webbing, each layer 0.1 inches thick.  Then move into leather belts up to 1/4 thick.  I've not found a good guide of thread thickness to material thickness that would drive a sewing machine selection.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

also.. Running different sizes of thread on your Nylon webbing for a Belt,  is going make it less stiff or make more ridged depending on thread size. When your wearing and breaking the belt in to you body. Running heavy thicker thread and highs tension over time It will stay stiff ridged longer .
 I just did up a new 1.75" wide, 2-layers of type-13 a couple days ago for myself . Nylon heavy square weave webbing for belt, I usually just use 69 for just putting it together . If it a Belt for daily carry and adding stiffness rigidness.  I run #207 or 277 down both side and two straight runs down the inside . For making less ridged and more softer after the break-in wear, then use 138 or go smaller size thread . Instead of just straight runs, you can trick it up a little bit also and do things like Diamond pattern and things down the center area in different color tones.
.

[chrisash]

Often its the design that takes presidence over strength on leather made goods, a seam made with 69 bonded nylon is very hard to break as the pressure is across the whole seam rather than a single stitch. on other items strength is more important than design

[sandmanred]

What machine do you have?  That's a factor in choosing thread and needle as well.

 

[91bird]

I don't have a machine at this point.  I'm working to understand what machine I need before purchasing.  A Juki 1541S was on my radar, I'm questioning if v138 thread it's enough for my needs.   My understanding is V138 is max thread size for the Juki 1541.

 

My needs are to make nylon belts 2 layers ~.2 inches thick with cobra belt buckle and possibly some other buckle options in the future.  The use for the belt is competition, range, inner waist band conceal carry, and outer waste band carry.  I would also like to expand this idea into leather belts for the same purpose.

[91bird]

I was able to dig up this thread talking about the same subject matter with a CB4500 using 138 in nylon webbing.

277 thread in leather. 

https://www.rw-leatherworks.com/blog/2019/03/watch-a-cowboy-cb4500-sewing-with-inline-presser-feet.html#more

 

#69 may be too thin for the type of belts I want to make in nylon, still undecided.  Unfortunately I don't have an industrial sewing supplier near me to test out.  I'm at the chicken and the egg point needing a machine to do a few test pieces to decide thread size and needing to buy a machine to make the test pieces.

92-277 thread may be the target.  Aside from dumbing down the CB4500 for 92 thread, is there another machine that fits better in this thread range?  Otherwise it's a Juki1541S  to start and a CB4500 later when needed for leather.

[DonInReno]

For the kinds of webbing belts you’re talking about most that I’ve been around are sewn with 138, but it’s very much a design decision.   Some webbing with smooth textures might look better with 92 if you are after a sleek look, but I’d still start with 138.  When I see webbing sewn with 92 the first thing that comes to mind is they are trying to save money or their machine won’t sew 138.

Once you have a big machine you’ll find some webbing looks better with thread larger than 138.

Needles are pretty straight forward - use ball nose for fabric or webbing since you don’t want to cut the fibers.

There are some good looking cobra-type buckles out there!  

 

 

 

[toxo]

On 12/10/2020 at 5:57 AM, nylonRigging said:

also.. Running different sizes of thread on your Nylon webbing for a Belt,  is going make it less stiff or make more ridged depending on thread size. When your wearing and breaking the belt in to you body. Running heavy thicker thread and highs tension over time It will stay stiff ridged longer .
 I just did up a new 1.75" wide, 2-layers of type-13 a couple days ago for myself . Nylon heavy square weave webbing for belt, I usually just use 69 for just putting it together . If it a Belt for daily carry and adding stiffness rigidness.  I run #207 or 277 down both side and two straight runs down the inside . For making less ridged and more softer after the break-in wear, then use 138 or go smaller size thread . Instead of just straight runs, you can trick it up a little bit also and do things like Diamond pattern and things down the center area in different color tones.
.

This has made me think about my Adler 69. Going through leather I suppose the upper thread limit is #138. Would this be the same on webbing? Never sewn webbing.

[91bird]

I appreciate the insight given in this thread.

 

When using a CB4500 with #92 thread in Webbing ~0.2 inches total thickness would I have issues with needle deflection and breaking?

[Wizcrafts]

27 minutes ago, 91bird said:

I appreciate the insight given in this thread.

 

When using a CB4500 with #92 thread in Webbing ~0.2 inches total thickness would I have issues with needle deflection and breaking?

Yes, deflection is very possible with extra long, #19 needles in a quarter inch of tight webbing. However, if you use #21 or #22 needles, deflection is less likely. Nobody is going to notice the bigger holes in webbing. Just increase the stitch length to offset the larger holes.

PS: I would recommend using #138 thread in .2 inches of webbing. Then use a #22 or #23 needle which is the right size for this thread.

[91bird]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Yes, deflection is very possible with extra long, #19 needles in a quarter inch of tight webbing. However, if you use #21 or #22 needles, deflection is less likely. Nobody is going to notice the bigger holes in webbing. Just increase the stitch length to offset the larger holes.

PS: I would recommend using #138 thread in .2 inches of webbing. Then use a #22 or #23 needle which is the right size for this thread.

Thank you. Looks like a CB4500 would be a better choice than a Juki 1541 for making belts and slings out of webbing and leather.

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, 91bird said:

Thank you. Looks like a CB4500 would be a better choice than a Juki 1541 for making belts and slings out of webbing and leather.

Yes, the CB4500, or the CB3200 will sew belts and slings all day, every day. Just keep the minimum thickness over 6 or 7 ounces of medium or hard temper materials. I personally keep my sewing on a CB4500 to 8 ounces and up using #138 thread and up.

Note that the standard CB4500 or CB3200 setup includes a 3:1 speed reducer for slow precision sewing on leather. This really slows down the machine to the point you may waste valuable time on long runs in webbing. In that case you can buy an extra long belt, debelt and bypass the reducer and go direct from motor to machine.

[91bird]

I dug deeper into the material specs. Type 13 webbing is 2.90 oz per yard.  0.080-0.120 inch thick.  Not sure how to classify its temper.

 

Seems to be a material at the minimum material density of a CB4500 and the top end of thread capability of a Juki 1541 when using #138.  

[nylonRigging]

16 hours ago, toxo said:

This has made me think about my Adler 69. Going through leather I suppose the upper thread limit is #138. Would this be the same on webbing? Never sewn webbing.

In a way, It is kind of like leather. as in soft and hard .
Punching Nylon webbing is same. It Not necessarily how 'thick' a nylon webbing is, ..but It all really depends on just how tight 'dense'  a weave is milled to .
With the Adler 69 . I think you can do it with using 138 and using a type 13 webbing and be GTG with it in 2 layers . the type 13 nylon webbing, is a little softer weave ( not to say loose) but it not as hard to punch threw as some of the other heavier tight weaves of webbing out there .
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