Help with sharpening my tools

[sonataworks]

Hey all,

Just wondering if you guys do anything special to sharpen your tools.

I've been using a leather strop with some green compound but it doesn't have the "great" effect that other people seem to be having. I just purchased a brand new L'indispensable knife but the edge came out blunter than my Stanley knife.

I haven't really moved onto stone grinding yet, as I'm afraid of ruining the edge by holding it at the wrong angle. Right now I've just been doing passes of the knife onto the strop for a little bit better of an edge, but not by much.

Another issue is definitely with my edge bevelers. Been having problems with the sharpness of those for a long time. And while I haven't bought Palosantos, I haven't been buying cheap tools either (Japanese variant of the Tandy Pro line).

I've tried using a tool like this with some 800 grit sandpaper, but I find it does not do much before the sandpaper rips on the tool. Not sure if I've ruined my beveler even with one of these tools, because these bevelers are not supposed to lose their edge this quickly.

I've also tried the sandpaper on needle method, and running the beveler down a strop.

Curious to know what works for you guys. Just a lil upsetting to have these beautiful projects marred by a crappy looking edge.

[Rahere]

Japanese tools need Japanese maintenance. Water stones are far more affordable these days, and shaped slips are available.

Keep the wider debate for western tools, please, folks. Different grades of steel.

[sbrownn]

I have a tool similar to the one you mentioned but I use it with 1500 grit wet/dry paper. 

The edgers from Ron's Tools come with a rod correctly sized for the edger you purchase.  I use the rod with 1500 grit paper as well.

I strop my edgers on the edge of a piece of leather I have beveled with the edger I am stropping.  I use the green compound as well.

Sometimes I finish off my edges with a buffing wheel in my dremel tool.  

If your edges are polished to a mirror finish with no scratch marks and they are still dull then you probably need to go back a step and reshape them on a stone.

 

[Bigfoote]

I use Rhynowet sand paper to sharpen my tools all the time. 800 grit is great to start with but way too coarse to finish. I use 2500 to finish my tools with. when you get your tools real sharp, strop them every use and then you won't have to sharpen ever.

[mike02130]

Keep in mind that stropping does not sharpen.  Most if not all new tools need sharpening.  They may cut but they still need work.  Most noticeable with skiving knives.  I bought a new single edged Chartermade blade for my L'indispesable knife.  It was sharp but not sharp enough. I worked it on a series stones starting with coarse.  Most knives don't meet at the point of the cutting edge (apex).  If that is the case you have a couple of options, 1, start with a coarse stone and work your way through the grits to get and maintain a flat bevel.  2, tip the blade so that you are putting a secondary bevel on the blade.  I prefer #1.

I see more people rounding over the edge by improperly stropping--seen too many barber movies.  Once you have a flat edge, find the sweet spot that your edge so it lies flat on the strop and with your index finger on the blade pull it along the strop keeping the edge flat at all times.  Go slowly.  At the end of the pull stop and lift your blade straight up.  Do not round it up.

How soft is the leather on your strop?  Many folks use too soft of a leather on them.  Soft leather does a back sharpen--for lack of a better description--and rounds the edge.  Other than Cordovan, compressed horse butt and kangaroo leather are considered the best.  I use horse butt.   Don't gunk it all up with compound.  I primarily use different grades of compounds on a piece of MDF.

It sounds like it may be time to break out the stones.

[sonataworks]

1 hour ago, Rahere said:

Japanese tools need Japanese maintenance. Water stones are far more affordable these days, and shaped slips are available.

Keep the wider debate for western tools, please, folks. Different grades of steel.

Could you expand on this a bit more? The tools I bought did not come with instructions, so I'm not sure what "Japanese maintenance" encompasses.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, sonataworks said:

Hey all,

Just wondering if you guys do anything special to sharpen your tools.

I've been using a leather strop with some green compound but it doesn't have the "great" effect that other people seem to be having. I just purchased a brand new L'indispensable knife but the edge came out blunter than my Stanley knife.

I haven't really moved onto stone grinding yet, as I'm afraid of ruining the edge by holding it at the wrong angle. Right now I've just been doing passes of the knife onto the strop for a little bit better of an edge, but not by much.

Another issue is definitely with my edge bevelers. Been having problems with the sharpness of those for a long time. And while I haven't bought Palosantos, I haven't been buying cheap tools either (Japanese variant of the Tandy Pro line).

I've tried using a tool like this with some 800 grit sandpaper, but I find it does not do much before the sandpaper rips on the tool. Not sure if I've ruined my beveler even with one of these tools, because these bevelers are not supposed to lose their edge this quickly.

I've also tried the sandpaper on needle method, and running the beveler down a strop.

Curious to know what works for you guys. Just a lil upsetting to have these beautiful projects marred by a crappy looking edge.

practice! and get rid of the 800 grit. I have never used a strop on my leather tools until recently and i'm still out on that. I have always used a piece of 2500 grit sand paper on my granite slab and it works fine. A strop if used wrong will round the edge.  same with the edge bevelers I fold a piece of 2500 grit and polish with that 800 is far to coarse. 

Stroping is for polishing and straightening the microscopic edge and doesnt remove material. sharpening or stone grinding as you call it is creating that edge. Now if your tool has a decent edge angle with no nicks but stroping or polishing with super fine paper wont help then you need to create the microscopic edge again with a very fine Arkansas stone. rough stones are for grinding the necessary angle finer stones create the edge after the angle is cut. 800 grit paper is more like a rough stone so you have went backwards a bit more than likely. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

31 minutes ago, sonataworks said:

Could you expand on this a bit more? The tools I bought did not come with instructions, so I'm not sure what "Japanese maintenance" encompasses.

you don't need jap water stones to sharpen jap made tools. water stones are excellent and if you can afford them buy them and learn to use them properly or they wont help either but the metal tool simply doesn't know where it was made and japan doesn't make or use steel any different than any other country has access to in their middle of the road tools. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by chuck123wapati

[jcuk]

These maybe of use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0aApSuDIX4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH5FmFNNZb4

Agreed 

1 hour ago, Bigfoote said:

strop them every use and then you won't have to sharpen ever.

Any cutting tools i use i strop before and after use no matter if it one strap or a hundred straps i have used it on, a good polished edge will make it better in use. If you have the means to make one of these you won't regret it saves a few pounds on fancy stones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVdwR6vJgg

Hope this helps

JCUK

Edited March 15, 2021 by jcuk

[Danne]

I'm no expert on sharpening, but keep one thing in mind there are no wrong methods if the knife gets sharp.

I use wet and dry from Mirka (There are a lot of good brands, I just have access to that here in a store close)

I have grits from 180 up to 2500 (I also use this for leather edges)

I have no idea what "Japanese tools need Japanese maintenance" means. But at least for my Japanese knives regular wet and dry sandpaper work awesome. I just wet it and put it on my granite plate. If they edge isn't chipped, I start with 1000 grit, and finish with 2500 grit. 

And between sharpening I strop with green chrome oxide. At first I didn't have good results with stropping, but after I lifted the knife a little bit (Like you would when you sharpen a secondary bevel on a knife) just a few strokes make the edge razor sharp again.

What mistake did I do in the beginning?

1. Hesitation when I sharpened, so I practiced on cheap Chinese knives (Like those 2€ knives)

2. When I needed to resharpen a knife I used 2500 grit (correct me if i'm wrong here) but for me it didn't work that great because when I had stropped my knife for a while I round off the edge. And I had to "define" the edge again with 1000 grit.

 

 

[Hardrada]

This is what I use:

https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/

Soft and hard. Does the job.

Japanese skiving knives are super easy to sharpen on those, as they only have one bevel and are straight, so just hold at your preferred angle and push. Even I can do it.

Round knives, on the other hand... require better technique.

[Danne]

Also one more tip. Something I did before, and it helped me to to learn how to keep the angle. In the beginning I leaned the knife against the "distance piece" but after a while I just had it there without almost touching it. And I could finally remove it. 

 

[Rahere]

8 hours ago, sonataworks said:

Could you expand on this a bit more? The tools I bought did not come with instructions, so I'm not sure what "Japanese maintenance" encompasses.

The history of Japanese metalworking was one where their available iron was low quality. What high-quality steel they had was excruciatingly expensive, so they hit on a successful combination of damascened blades which were very flexible but couldn't hold an edge, and a quality edge added. As a result, too much grinding could destroy it, and their tools are very forgiving. They also are very efficient (one saw I have cuts between the pencil mark).

As a result, their water stones are very effective. A gringing paste is formed on the surface, and you need to learn how to hold at a steady angle. You simply drizzle it in pure water (I live in London where it's possibly harder than the steel) and stroke it. A bead forms, rub it off, then maintain the edge.

[Danne]

8 minutes ago, Rahere said:

The history of Japanese metalworking was one where their available iron was low quality. What high-quality steel they had was excruciatingly expensive, so they hit on a successful combination of damascened blades which were very flexible but couldn't hold an edge, and a quality edge added. As a result, too much grinding could destroy it, and their tools are very forgiving. They also are very efficient (one saw I have cuts between the pencil mark).

As a result, their water stones are very effective. A gringing paste is formed on the surface, and you need to learn how to hold at a steady angle. You simply drizzle it in pure water (I live in London where it's possibly harder than the steel) and stroke it. A bead forms, rub it off, then maintain the edge.

Is it some special Japanese tools you are talking about? I have a cheap Skiving knives from Kyoshin Elle (Aogami #2 steel) and there are not need for water stones. Gets razor sharp with regular wet and dry and some stropping. And cuts leather like butter. As I said before i'm certainly no expert on knife sharpening. But I do know that my knives get really sharp and it's super easy to skive with a clean result. 

[Rahere]

17 minutes ago, Danne said:

Is it some special Japanese tools you are talking about? I have a cheap Skiving knives from Kyoshin Elle (Aogami #2 steel) and there are not need for water stones. Gets razor sharp with regular wet and dry and some stropping. And cuts leather like butter. As I said before i'm certainly no expert on knife sharpening. But I do know that my knives get really sharp and it's super easy to skive with a clean result. 

This is precisely the trolling I hoped to avoid. You took my comment, removed the context, and have turned passiva aggressive.

[Danne]

1 minute ago, Rahere said:

This is precisely the trolling I hoped to avoid. You took my comment, removed the context, and have turned passiva aggressive.

I wasn't trolling. And i'm not sure what context I removed. I'm not trying to be rude in any way, and if you took it that way i'm sorry, it was certainly not my intention. Im just trying to understand why I would benefit from Japanese water stones instead of sand paper (apart from the obvious thing that sand paper can get expensive if I sharpen a lot) or why I should choose Japanese water stones instead of for example diamond stones.

[Rahere]

I have asked for moderation on this. Sorry, I'd block you if I could. I was very specific to avoid this, but you went there regardless. I've learned from this, there are some subjects best avoided. And that's a pity, all things considered.

[Danne]

35 minutes ago, Rahere said:

I have asked for moderation on this. Sorry, I'd block you if I could. I was very specific to avoid this, but you went there regardless. I've learned from this, there are some subjects best avoided. And that's a pity, all things considered.

No need to block me, if you don't want to discuss this I respect this. Have a nice day.

[Retswerb]

@Rahere, I have no idea what you responded to here but unless something has already been moderated out I have no clue what you’re on about. Settle down.

[Frodo]

I agree that SOME Japanese knives are better than the west and I am not going to apologize for my opinion.

If anyone disagrees. THAT is OK. I love ya anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OP. WOW.  First before you attempt to sharpen. Screw this, It would take me typing all night

Lets CHEAT, and use youtube 

Blade Sharpening Fundamentals - YouTube

Edited March 16, 2021 by Frodo

[zuludog]

My Dad was a carpenter, and I was brought up on oil stones. I inherited one of his, and bought another from a second hand tool stall on the market. They are both double sided, but different, so I have 4 grades from coarse to very fine. I cleaned them by soaking in paraffin/kerosene overnight, and made a bench hook for them

Sometimes I use wet & dry paper on a sheet of glass, covering grits from 1,000 to 7,000 in a few increments. I lubricate them with water containing a drop of washing up liquid. Remember that with wet & dry paper you should only pull backwards, away from the cutting edge

I follow this with a strop made from 2mm natural veg tan leather, flesh side up, and green chromium dioxide stropping compound

I've tried Japanese water stones, and diamond plates, but I didn't take to them - you might. There's nothing wrong with them, and they are used by many people, but that was just my choice

There are loads of videos on YouTube about sharpening all sorts of tools - knives & chisels as well as leather working tools; also on making a stop. Watch as many as you have the stamina for, you must be able to find something useful and helpful

Again there are several videos about sharpening edge bevellers. You can make a stropping board with strips of leather glued flat or edge onto suit the tool, and/or pull through with some cord loaded with compound

Edited March 16, 2021 by zuludog

[mike02130]

Some thoughts,

As a user of Japanese woodworking chisels and Japanese high carbon steel kitchen knives I find that Japanese water stones work better than diamond or other stones.  They are softer steels than Hitachi white and blue steels found in better Japanese leather knives.

My Japanese leather knives are both white and blue steel. Both are very hard steel.  I find it difficult to use my Japanese stones without tiring and wearing down the stones and my arms.  I prefer DMT diamond stones from coarse to extra fine then on to a Spyderco ultra fine ceramic stone and strop with white compound.  I find the steel is too hard for the green (same with D2).  

I'm not one of these anal types looking at edges under a super microscope and while I respect others' opinions I usually don't give a damn for I know what I know works for me.

I really see no logical reason to use sandpaper unless one can not afford to buy a sharpening stone.  One can pick up a new two sided India stone for twenty bucks and is easier, more convenient and cheaper than sandpaper.

If one is to state a fact then they ought to back that up with some information supporting that assertation.

It disheartens me to see such bickering here.  Has "wokeness" and "cancel-culture" now infiltrated this forum?

Knock it off and let's learn somethings concerning leather work.

 

[mike02130]

9 hours ago, Rahere said:

I have asked for moderation on this. Sorry, I'd block you if I could. I was very specific to avoid this, but you went there regardless. I've learned from this, there are some subjects best avoided. And that's a pity, all things considered.

 Since you are saying this to the group and not direct messaging Danne I would like to ask what subjects did you learn that are best avoided?

[sbrownn]

12 hours ago, Rahere said:

This is precisely the trolling I hoped to avoid. You took my comment, removed the context, and have turned passiva aggressive.

I didn't see any trolling in the comment. 

 

[chuck123wapati]

man people are sure passionate about their sharpening.