Consew 206RB-5: Not picking up bobbin thread

[MtlBiker]

I'm fairly mechanically inclined, but not with sewing machine mechanics, unfortunately.  At least not yet.  My Consew 206RB-5 isn't picking up the bobbin thread.  And I don't know how to fix that, or even to figure out what the problem is.  I have had thread jams a few times, usually caused by the bobbin holder popping out.  Which seems to happen more often than I think it should.  I always insert the bobbin holder until it clicks in place and even pull on the thread a bit to make sure the case is properly inserted.  Yet from time to time it still pops out causing a jam.

I've had the rotating hook out a few times to clear out threads and have always managed to put it back together properly, and this time I just can't see what's wrong or how to fix it.

Could it be hook timing?  (What would make that go out of adjustment?)  Is there a way to check that without removing the needle plate, feed dog etc?  What's the most common cause of not picking up the bobbin thread?

Thanks for any help.

[SARK9]

25 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

What's the most common cause of not picking up the bobbin thread?

Around these parts, its:

1. Working on other machines, getting distracted, and threading the needle right-to-left

2. Not noticing the needle is installed backwards.

3.Make sure the safety clutch didn't trip out....

4. Aftermarket bobbin cases.

IF you have had the hook out, and the simple stuff all checks good, you probably can't get out of double checking your hook timing and needle position by the numbers. Mine has always been extremely forgiving. It DOES prefer that you insert the bobbin case when the dot on the handwheel is aligned with the dot in the main casting.

The 206RB5 was promoted as a machine you could just pop a new bobbin in and start sewing, without the usual ritual of drawing the bobbin thread up first with the needle, so yours should be as forgiving as mine if its all healthy. Habit occasionally forces me to draw it up and hold back the needle thread tail for a couple of stitches anyway, just because.

-DC

Edited July 5, 2021 by SARK9

[kgg]

51 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Could it be hook timing? 

Yes it could be but I would suspect that since you are having this problem with the bobbin popping out more often that it has more to do with the mechanism that keeps the bobbin case in place is worn or misaligned. I would check out the video on "How to fix a Juki DNU-1541S that is jammed or stuck" ( youtube.com/watch?v=6PGPtkjsqus&t=68s ) even through it is for a Juki it may help you see how the bobbin assembly is kept in place for your machine. Also it could be as simple as when replacing the needle in a hurry it wasn't installed all the in or backwards. Done that a couple times.

kgg

Edited July 5, 2021 by kgg
wording

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, SARK9 said:

Around these parts, its:

1. Working on other machines, getting distracted, and threading the needle right-to-left

2. Not noticing the needle is installed backwards.

3.Make sure the safety clutch didn't trip out....

4. Aftermarket bobbin cases.

IF you have had the hook out, and the simple stuff all checks good, you probably can't get out of double checking your hook timing and needle position by the numbers. Mine has always been extremely forgiving. It DOES prefer that you insert the bobbin case when the dot on the handwheel is aligned with the dot in the main casting.

The 206RB5 was promoted as a machine you could just pop a new bobbin in and start sewing, without the usual ritual of drawing the bobbin thread up first with the needle, so yours should be as forgiving as mine if its all healthy. Habit occasionally forces me to draw it up and hold back the needle thread tail for a couple of stitches anyway, just because.

-DC

I'd never heard that before, nor had I ever even noticed those dots.  I had to go looking for them and at first thought there weren't any as the only way to see them is to peek through the little oval opening in the belt cover.

All the other things you mentioned check out, so I'm now in the middle of trying to check and adjust the timing, thanks to the YouTube maintenance video.

I'm attaching a small video... I blackened the scarf with a sharpie to make it easier to see, but would you say I'm right that this looks like bad timing?  Should the point of the hook be higher up centered on the scarf?

@kgg - Thanks, that video was helpful earlier on when I had to remove/reinstall the hook to clear a jam.  But now it seems the issue is that the timing is off.  Could the timing get changed by having a jam?

 

[SARK9]

29 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Should the point of the hook be higher up centered on the scarf?

 

My impression is the needle bar is too high at the point the hook rotates past the needle...sort of common on other machines if your needle has had an impact with something solid. If you have the manual for the 206rb5, page 13 and 14 pretty much line out the procedures for verifying or recovering the correct adjustments.

-DC

Edited July 5, 2021 by SARK9
included scan

[CowboyBob]

These hardly ever go out of time,you should double check the safety clutch & make sure you can see the BB in the hole of the clutch.

Edited July 5, 2021 by CowboyBob

[MtlBiker]

51 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

These hardly ever go out of time,you should double check the safety clutch & make sure you can see the BB in the hole of the clutch.

Thanks @CowboyBob If the safety clutch has activated, the machine wouldn't turn, right?  It's turning and running fine, so if I understand correctly, the safety clutch is fine.

I'm so lost with this at the moment.

@SARK9 Thanks for that scan.  Following the maintenance video, I've got the needle bar height adjusted correctly.  And the clearance between the point of the hook and the needle is just like a sheet of bond paper.  It looks to me that timing of the hook is also correct (although I can't say I'm 100% certain it is).  But still I cannot pick up the bobbin thread.  Dumb question time (again!)...  is it the rotating hook that's supposed to catch the bobbin thread?  It's not happening.  The bobbin thread just hangs there, sticking out from the bobbin holder like it always has and like threading videos show.  Something (whatever it is) just isn't catching hold of the bobbin thread.  Or does the hook catch the top thread to form a loop to catch the bobbin thread?  Neither is happening.

 

[MtlBiker]

Progress... of sorts.

I can now pick up the bobbin thread, and can turn the wheel by hand or power, but when I try to sew something it's not forming stitches.

[CowboyBob]

19 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Thanks @CowboyBob If the safety clutch has activated, the machine wouldn't turn, right?  It's turning and running fine, so if I understand correctly, the safety clutch is fine.

I'm so lost with this at the moment.

@SARK9 Thanks for that scan.  Following the maintenance video, I've got the needle bar height adjusted correctly.  And the clearance between the point of the hook and the needle is just like a sheet of bond paper.  It looks to me that timing of the hook is also correct (although I can't say I'm 100% certain it is).  But still I cannot pick up the bobbin thread.  Dumb question time (again!)...  is it the rotating hook that's supposed to catch the bobbin thread?  It's not happening.  The bobbin thread just hangs there, sticking out from the bobbin holder like it always has and like threading videos show.  Something (whatever it is) just isn't catching hold of the bobbin thread.  Or does the hook catch the top thread to form a loop to catch the bobbin thread?  Neither is happening.

 

Yes,the machine will turn & so will the hook unlike the 111w type machines,but when the clutch kicks out it will appear to be out of time like your machine is.

 

[MtlBiker]

8 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

Yes,the machine will turn & so will the hook unlike the 111w type machines,but when the clutch kicks out it will appear to be out of time like your machine is.

 

Thank you!  You were right (it seems) because when I held the little button on the top for the safety clutch and turned the hand wheel, I did hear/feel a sort of pop.  It must have been out.  And now it looks like I've really messed things up... I can pick up the bobbin thread but the machine isn't forming stitches.  When I try to sew, everything is working perfectly but no stitches are formed.

A little knowledge... is a dangerous thing.  SIGH

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by MtlBiker

[CowboyBob]

2 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Thank you!  You were right (it seems) because when I held the little button on the top for the safety clutch and turned the hand wheel, I did hear/feel a sort of pop.  It must have been out.  And now it looks like I've really messed things up... I can pick up the bobbin thread but the machine isn't forming stitches.  When I try to sew, everything is working perfectly but no stitches are formed.

A little knowledge... is a dangerous thing.  SIGH

 

Tilt the machine back,look @ the clutch & then turn the machine until you see the hole in the outer part & make sure you can see the BB in there B4 doing anything else.I'm sure it's in there BUT we need to know for sure.

[Constabulary]

if not the safety clutch then IMO the NB is too high AND the hook is too far away from the needle scarf.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Constabulary

[kgg]

 

12 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

the hook is too far away from the needle scarf.

I looked at your video and agree with Constabulary that the hooks to far away from the scarf. I figure you have either a damaged hook like the tip missing or the rotatory hook assembly moved away from the needle as a result of a needle overload, strike or the abrupt kicking in of the clutch. I would check and see if the hook assembly set screw has become loose on the shaft. I would reposition the hook assembly forward on the shaft and re time.

kgg

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

Tilt the machine back,look @ the clutch & then turn the machine until you see the hole in the outer part & make sure you can see the BB in there B4 doing anything else.I'm sure it's in there BUT we need to know for sure.

Yes, it's there.  (Took me a bit to find it, because I was looking right below the reset button on the flatbed.  I didn't realize the safety clutch bearing was 3.5" to the right of that.)

 

1 hour ago, Constabulary said:

if not the safety clutch then IMO the NB is too high AND the hook is too far away from the needle scarf.

I had already adjusted the needle bar height according to the YouTube maintenance video.  So as @kgg suggests, it might be that the hook is damaged, although it doesn't appear to be but I have nothing to compare it with, or something else.

 

[MtlBiker]

37 minutes ago, kgg said:

 

I looked at your video and agree with Constabulary that the hooks to far away from the scarf. I figure you have either a damaged hook like the tip missing or the rotatory hook assembly moved away from the needle as a result of a needle overload, strike or the abrupt kicking in of the clutch. I would check and see if the hook assembly set screw has become loose on the shaft. I would reposition the hook assembly forward on the shaft and re time.

kgg

I'm not sure what set screw you're talking about.  Do you mean the 3 set screws on the shaft just by the safety clutch?  That's what I need to adjust to set the hook timing, right?

And I'm a little confused by what I've read in a couple of places... one said the point of the hook needs to be centered within the scarf of the needle (once the needle bar is properly adjusted) and another said the top of the needle hole.  On the video it looks like it's not really the sharp point of the hook that's centered on the scarf, but a little ways back from the point that's centered.

Obviously, I don't get it (yet).

[kgg]

 

2 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

'm not sure what set screw you're talking about.  Do you mean the 3 set screws on the shaft just by the safety clutch?  That's what I need to adjust to set the hook timing, right?

I think this video around the 52 minute mark should help you with moving the hook assembly forward, set screws and timing the  "Consew 206RB 5 Maintenance Video Part 1" (youtube.com/watch?v=y4ACNMX65zE).

kgg

 

[MtlBiker]

14 hours ago, kgg said:

 

I think this video around the 52 minute mark should help you with moving the hook assembly forward, set screws and timing the  "Consew 206RB 5 Maintenance Video Part 1" (youtube.com/watch?v=y4ACNMX65zE).

kgg

 

That's the video I've been watching.  But parts of it aren't entirely clear to me (novice that I am) and many parts are out of focus so it's hard to see exactly  what's going on.  But overall those videos (there are two) are superb.  I imagine someone with more experience than I would have no problem at all.

Still not clear on whether the pointy tip of the rotary hook is what has to be centered vertically on the scarf, or closer to the top of the eye of the needle.  And if you advance the timing, doesn't it mean the point passes the needle sooner than if the timing is retarded? 

I gave up last night and now I'm at work all week with very little time in the evenings to work on this.  Might have to wait until Sunday/Monday (which is my weekend).

[Constabulary]

The instruction manual is pretty clear with the timing values - SARK9 posted an extract above. If you do not have the complete manual download it.

[MtlBiker]

Chances are that my rotary hook is damaged, but I don't have the experience to know for sure.  Nor do I have a new one to compare with.  So I thought I'd buy a new one just in case.  Supposedly it's part #18033.

Online I see them for $35-50.  My Consew dealer just quoted me $374 plus taxes!  Is that even possible?  Could there be some misunderstanding of "rotary hook part #18033"?  Could the dealer be quoting me for some kind of complete assembly?  Geez, that makes the hook about 30% of the price I paid for the machine!

 

[Wizcrafts]

I run a Consew 206rb-18, which is the same thing but longer. I time this machine so that when the needle has risen about 3/32" the very tip of the hook meets the center of the needle 1/16" above the top of the eye. If I encounter skipped stitches after that I move the hook saddle closer to the needle and bend the deflector if necessary so the hook comes as close as possible but doesn't actually hit the needle.

Did you know that a left to right threaded needle tends to get pulled to the left as you sew? The amount of pull varies with the diameter of the body and how tight the top and bottom threads are tensioned. A number 16 or 18 needle will be pulled more to the left than a number 20 or 21. This explains why a perfectly timed machine might still skip stitches. Other factors come into play, but needle pull can't be ignored. Obviously, if you reduce the thread tensions to the minimum that still gives a good stitch, the deflection will be minimized.

Lastly, observe the check spring as you hand wheel the machine. It should rest all the way down against the bottom stop bracket (adjustable) then pull up smoothly as the take-up lever moves up. As the take-up becomes let down, the spring should keep the top thread taut until the needle has fully pierced the material, then it should stop against the stop bracket. The spring tension should be strong enough to bring the spring down to its resting position, but not much more than that.

[Wizcrafts]

3 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

Online I see them for $35-50.  My Consew dealer just quoted me $374 plus taxes!  Is that even possible?  Could there be some misunderstanding of "rotary hook part #18033"?  Could the dealer be quoting me for some kind of complete assembly?  Geez, that makes the hook about 30% of the price I paid for the machine!

OEM parts are always more expensive than aftermarket parts from Wuhan. They are warranted against defects and more likely to be a perfect fit for your machine. Sometimes they are not stocked by your dealer and have to be special ordered.

Since you are not using the machine now, why not remove the hook and examine the tip and ramp for burrs from needle strikes. The point should be well defined and sharp. The ramp portion that carries the thread around the bobbin basket should be smooth. If these things are true there is no need to replace the hook.

When you reinstall the hook (current or replacement), set the opener arm so it stops before pulling the tab all the way back. It needs a bit of clearance. And, make sure that when the hook picks off the thread loop, it carries it smoothly around the bobbin basket. There shouldn't be any hangs in this motion. If the thread makes a snapping sound, move the check spring disk to the right in its slot to give more slack thread. Do this until the snapping stops. You may also need to reduce the thread tensions to accomplish this. The machine will be happier, like the Canadiens fans were last night.

[MtlBiker]

17 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

OEM parts are always more expensive than aftermarket parts from Wuhan. They are warranted against defects and more likely to be a perfect fit for your machine. Sometimes they are not stocked by your dealer and have to be special ordered.

Since you are not using the machine now, why not remove the hook and examine the tip and ramp for burrs from needle strikes. The point should be well defined and sharp. The ramp portion that carries the thread around the bobbin basket should be smooth. If these things are true there is no need to replace the hook.

When you reinstall the hook (current or replacement), set the opener arm so it stops before pulling the tab all the way back. It needs a bit of clearance. And, make sure that when the hook picks off the thread loop, it carries it smoothly around the bobbin basket. There shouldn't be any hangs in this motion. If the thread makes a snapping sound, move the check spring disk to the right in its slot to give more slack thread. Do this until the snapping stops. You may also need to reduce the thread tensions to accomplish this. The machine will be happier, like the Canadiens fans were last night.

Thanks for your help, Wiz!

But my inexperience makes it difficult to understand what you are suggesting.  Opener arm?  Tab?

In any case, tonight when I get home I'll remove the hook and examine it.  But again without experience or something to compare to, how pointy should it be?  How sharp?  You'd probably know instantly.  If I don't see anything obvious, I'll try to take a close up photo.

I sure don't want to spend $400 for a new hook if it's not needed.

 

[chrisash]

Half a dozen photo's of the needle v hook may well help others decide whats wrong, the old saying a image is better than a thousand words (or something like that)

 

[Wizcrafts]

55 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

But my inexperience makes it difficult to understand what you are suggesting.  Opener arm?  Tab?

In any case, tonight when I get home I'll remove the hook and examine it.  But again without experience or something to compare to, how pointy should it be?  How sharp?

Oi Vey!

Leave it alone and have a professional come over, or bring the head to a sewing machine mechanic.

[TurnerSew]

Here's a couple of pictures you might find helpful. Just note, that if you get this too close, you run a risk of breaking something and needing new parts. At that point, it'd likely be more expensive than paying someone else to do it. 

First is a picture of hook point clearance. Needs to be close. The manual excerpt above is spot on. As is the YouTube video. Set the hook point to be within the scarf, not on the eye of the needle. As far as sharpness on the hook, think of the tip of a good pair of pointed shears. The point should be like a triangle point, not beveled or blunt.

Second is the physical location of the thread release finger / bobbin case opener. The YouTube video is as well.

 

If you are confident with both of these being correct, start with tension next, as described by Wiz.

IMG_4861.HEIC IMG_4857.HEIC