Skivers

[toxo]

Can I assume the TY801/CB801/JS801 etc are all the same machine? There's a decent looking used one in my area for sale but I know nothing about them. Being a skeptical sort of chap whose only luck seems to be bad I'm imagining the knife being wore out and all sorts. How much would a new knife cost? I seem to vaguely remember that they're not cheap. Thanks guys

 

[jimi]

Yes they are all the same one and a knife from Ali costs about €20 i think, maybe someone here has this 801 type model and can say what they are like performance wise??

[Scoutmom103]

Here's a link to a review of an Aurora 801.  It's in Russian, but has English Subtitles.   I turned the sound off (I don't speak Russian) and read the subtitles.

Машина для спуска края кожи | обзор машины А-801| Skiving machine - YouTube

[toxo]

1 hour ago, jimi said:

Yes they are all the same one and a knife from Ali costs about €20 i think, maybe someone here has this 801 type model and can say what they are like performance wise??

Thanks Jimi. That's reasonable, they should last a while cos I won't be doing any production runs.

Good link Sheila. I also looked at Harry Rogers on YT. They seem to do what they're supposed to do.

[Matt S]

I've used what was described as "the cheapest Chinese skiver on the market" once. It was definitely not as well made as my 60-ish-year-old Fortuna, but it did the job.

[toxo]

4 hours ago, Matt S said:

I've used what was described as "the cheapest Chinese skiver on the market" once. It was definitely not as well made as my 60-ish-year-old Fortuna, but it did the job.

There's two on ebay at the moment. This one which looks like the basic with a clutch motor.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284452986412?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D672e2d912e9f49aaacbf11707c7ead24%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D265437153878%26itm%3D284452986412%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af4f61d19-5ad0-11ec-91c4-82881963cab4%7Cparentrq%3Aab97ff3d17d0a7b21ce5cb2efff15e97%7Ciid%3A1

And this one which is dearer with bells and whistles What do you think neighbour? Car won't do the first one unless I pay ulez I think the second one is outside.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265437153878?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D672e2d912e9f49aaacbf11707c7ead24%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D265437153878%26itm%3D265437153878%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af4f61d19-5ad0-11ec-91c4-82881963cab4%7Cparentrq%3Aab97ff3d17d0a7b21ce5cb2efff15e97%7Ciid%3A1

[RockyAussie]

The part cover that goes over the bell knife in the first one I don't like. The cover in the second one is a full cover but all the same you sometimes have to do a bit of fiddling around to get the clearance down to as close to the bell s possible. Less than a mm and about  the thickness of a piece of paper is great. The second has an end cover which you need for good waste material extraction but how effective the extraction is I could only guess. If you can see it in action would be best. The reason for the pneumatic switch set up running down to the vacuum set up is a mystery to me and I can only think it is there as a safety to stop the vacuum working whilst any sharpening of the bell is being done. Stopping any sparks getting into the waste bag with a set up like this would be important I think. The Fortuna and FAV ones I have, the vacuum set ups are drawing after the collection points. I would be getting the second one myself. I would ask them why the pneumatic switch is needed because if you can do without it I would. It also may be an air driven impeller as I can not see any electrical connections to it up close.

Edited December 12, 2021 by RockyAussie

[Matt S]

 

14 hours ago, toxo said:

There's two on ebay at the moment. This one which looks like the basic with a clutch motor.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284452986412?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D672e2d912e9f49aaacbf11707c7ead24%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D265437153878%26itm%3D284452986412%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af4f61d19-5ad0-11ec-91c4-82881963cab4|parentrq%3Aab97ff3d17d0a7b21ce5cb2efff15e97|iid%3A1

And this one which is dearer with bells and whistles What do you think neighbour? Car won't do the first one unless I pay ulez I think the second one is outside.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265437153878?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D672e2d912e9f49aaacbf11707c7ead24%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D265437153878%26itm%3D265437153878%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af4f61d19-5ad0-11ec-91c4-82881963cab4|parentrq%3Aab97ff3d17d0a7b21ce5cb2efff15e97|iid%3A1

I'm no expert on skivers but Brian makes a great point -- that vacuum extractor would be very handy. It's something my skiver lacks, and while it's not a problem doing lap skiving strap turnbacks (my main use for the thing at the moment) on long skives it can get rather tangly.

 

9 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I would ask them why the pneumatic switch is needed because if you can do without it I would. It also may be an air driven impeller as I can not see any electrical connections to it up close.

I concur -- looks like the vacuum fan/pump is air powered. Not having oodles of compressed air laid-on in my shack I think I'd pull that off and put in something electric.

[toxo]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:43 AM, RockyAussie said:

The part cover that goes over the bell knife in the first one I don't like. The cover in the second one is a full cover but all the same you sometimes have to do a bit of fiddling around to get the clearance down to as close to the bell s possible. Less than a mm and about  the thickness of a piece of paper is great. The second has an end cover which you need for good waste material extraction but how effective the extraction is I could only guess. If you can see it in action would be best. The reason for the pneumatic switch set up running down to the vacuum set up is a mystery to me and I can only think it is there as a safety to stop the vacuum working whilst any sharpening of the bell is being done. Stopping any sparks getting into the waste bag with a set up like this would be important I think. The Fortuna and FAV ones I have, the vacuum set ups are drawing after the collection points. I would be getting the second one myself. I would ask them why the pneumatic switch is needed because if you can do without it I would. It also may be an air driven impeller as I can not see any electrical connections to it up close.

Well God help me, I've provisionally bought the second one. The seller knows nothing about it. What's the chances of the air system being just a switch that can be changed or will the vacuum not work without air? I won't be holding my breath on there being any accessories like extra feet (are they standard and will I need more than the standard one)

If it has to have a compressor, what kind am I looking at bearing in mind it needs to be fairly quiet?

Edited December 18, 2021 by toxo
Details

[RockyAussie]

On 12/18/2021 at 12:44 PM, toxo said:

What's the chances of the air system being just a switch that can be changed or will the vacuum not work without air?

I highly doubt there will be a switch to just change over. First see if they provide any manual to advise the air pressure requirement. I would not go with the air driven set up unless you only intend to do short runs occasionally. As far as the feet go there are a lot available but I would be getting a roller foot version pretty early as I do almost any thing I want with a roller foot with the least problems. One of the dealers here has agreed to pay me some $ to do up a manual with pictures on how to set up and use these 801 type skiving machines which I will probably finish by March or April 22. Most of the manuals out there are not very helpful I am sorry to say. This here link if you check will show some of the feet available (you can see in my youtubes where I made one like the number 18 fit up and I would get the number 20 in case it was any better. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33049213271.html

Get a whole lot of scrap leather and take notes as you trial. (make sure you get a dressing stick for removing the burr occasionally inside the bell)

Let me know when you have it in hand

Edited December 19, 2021 by RockyAussie

[toxo]

3 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

I highly doubt there will be a switch to just change over. First see if they provide any manual to advise the air pressure requirement. I would not go with the air driven set up unless you only intend to do short runs occasionally. As far as the feet go there are a lot available but I would be getting a roller foot version pretty early as I do almost any thing I want with a roller foot with the least problems. One of the dealers here has agreed to pay me some $ to do up a manual with pictures on how to set up and use these 801 type skiving machines which I will probably finish by March or April 22. Most of the manuals out there are not very helpful I am sorry to say. This here link if you check will show some of the feet available (you can see in my youtubes where I made one like the number 18 fit up and I would get the number 20 in case it was any better. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33049213271.html

Get a whole lot of scrap leather and take notes as you trial. (make sure you get a dressing stick for removing the burr occasionally inside the bell)

Let me know when you have it in hand

Thanks Brian. I plan on picking it up on Tuesday. There are a lot of 801 vids on YT but they don't seem to go beyond the basics. For example the angle of the sharpen as the stone wears down or doesn't it matter? I don't suppose it'll come with a stone dresser. Thanks for the link. Looks like spares are not hard to find.

The only reference I can find for the "Eagle" brand is in London so that might be good. I'll call them tomorrow. Hopefully they'll have some info on the vacuum side.

It won't be getting a lot of use so maybe a cheap compressor will be a cheaper option than changing to an electric motor.

 

[RockyAussie]

12 hours ago, toxo said:

For example the angle of the sharpen as the stone wears down or doesn't it matter?

It does matter and thankfully a lot of these machines have an adjustment underneath to move the stone back a little if need be. The width of blade angle you can see should be around 5mm wide or a bit more if possible. The wider bevel makes it less of a problem to get thicker leather to to pass through. If it is too short it will jam up more often and the feed stone will have trouble pushing it through.

With the machine head opened back you can see me undoing the 12mm bolt to move the stone back in order to achieve a wider skive bevel.

This pic shows the shaft is now fully back.

[AzShooter]

I just did a bag using a hand Skiver.  That's a lot of work.  If I get to the point where I'm making a bunch I guess I'll have to get a machine.

Watching this thread is helping me decide which machine will work.

[toxo]

6 hours ago, AzShooter said:

I just did a bag using a hand Skiver.  That's a lot of work.  If I get to the point where I'm making a bunch I guess I'll have to get a machine.

Watching this thread is helping me decide which machine will work.

Is why I'm buying this one. Doing it by hand is time consuming, inconsistent and easy to make a mistake especially on soft chrome tan.

[toxo]

10 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

It does matter and thankfully a lot of these machines have an adjustment underneath to move the stone back a little if need be. The width of blade angle you can see should be around 5mm wide or a bit more if possible. The wider bevel makes it less of a problem to get thicker leather to to pass through. If it is too short it will jam up more often and the feed stone will have trouble pushing it through.

With the machine head opened back you can see me undoing the 12mm bolt to move the stone back in order to achieve a wider skive bevel.

This pic shows the shaft is now fully back.

Great info as usual Brian. On the vacuum side, you got me thinking about sparks in the bag. Maybe it has an air driven impeller to avoid that. Thinking about the feed roller, I've noticed there are different types, is there a preference for thinner leather? The one I'm getting was apparently used by an upholstery firm so should be ok. Also I watched one video that said the carborundum feed stone is used to take the burrs off the inside of the knife, that's not right is it?

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, toxo said:

Great info as usual Brian. On the vacuum side, you got me thinking about sparks in the bag. Maybe it has an air driven impeller to avoid that. Thinking about the feed roller, I've noticed there are different types, is there a preference for thinner leather? The one I'm getting was apparently used by an upholstery firm so should be ok. Also I watched one video that said the carborundum feed stone is used to take the burrs off the inside of the knife, that's not right is it?

The second drum thing after the impeller may be a spark arrester? There are quite a few different feed roller versions. In the stone versions you have a fine ,medium and course grit to choose from and I would suggest that the medium is what I would start with. The fine grit is not great at picking up and pulling through medium to heavy weight leathers and the course is more liable to have soft leather stick to it and wrap around. This link from Campbell Randall shows quite a few of the possible types - https://www.campbell-randall.com/shop/fav-fratelli-alberti

The rubber feed  types can be good on soft stuff but if you accidentally have the feed roll touch the bell blade it will cut right in and that's the end of that one. Had that happen. The steel fluted ones can be good on heavy weight leather but can leave a ripple up and down look and again if it touches the bell knife ......not good. As a general practice using the feed stone to clean up the burrs inside the bell after a sharpen is not normal except if for some reason you have had to grind out a large chip from the blade and there is a heavy burr inside the bell. I do it when I sharpen a bell for the first time but rarely after that. You do NOT want to do this and end up with any bevel inside the bell as it will make getting a predictable skive near impossible. The leather will dive downward. Cleaning the burr off with a stone tipped dressing stick is the normal practice and only takes a few seconds of pressure. There should be a brass dish shaped deflector in the bell which should be set about 15mm in from the edge, this you have to careful not to touch with the dressing stick when you are cleaning up any burrs.

When you have it in hand I would post a few pictures showing underneath of the machine head mostly around the bell area and in from the end and straight on at the front around the bell area again.

[toxo]

OK, a bitter sweet day. The seller wanted £750, I offered £600 and he accepted. When I got there today to pick it up (£30 in fuel) I found a machine that had seen better days  and didn't work. The belt that operates the sharpening stone was de-laminating in various places but it did sharpen the blade. The feed roller was smooth - looks like someone drove it into the blade, and wasn't turning. Turns out the linkage that turns the feed roller was missing. found it in the drawer, looks like the pins at each end were too short so I'm guessing wasn't staying in place. Wasn't able to assess the vacuum system because no air available. A couple of more minor things need attention. All in all it needs some TLC but should be able to bring it back for very little cost. He sensed I was about to walk so we got to haggling and in the end I paid him £350 which I'm happy with. Will clean it up and take some pics tomorrow and try to get some air to the vacuum.

[RockyAussie]

8 hours ago, toxo said:

Will clean it up and take some pics tomorrow and try to get some air to the vacuum

Show me some pics of the pins in the shaft as well. To be safe I will try and get some pics on here showing the gear section behind that shaft. You will need to take off the top cover and check that there is some grease in there and that the cogs are not all broken in there. Having that shaft not connected does not sound good. This is what

that shaft should look like -

This gear box at the back shows a top cover plate that can be removed with three screws - Inside you should see oily grease and if it looks dodgy you will need to clean it all out to inspect.

 

[toxo]

OK, spent most of the day looking for air line connectors if one was the right type it was the wrong thread. I was determined to find out if the vacuum system worked.  Ended up having to bodge it.

Eventually got some air into it via the compressor by the back door and an airline going up the stairs.

 

This is the vacuum pump. Don't know what's inside it yet.

Nothing happening at all. Looked everywhere for a switch of some sort, Nothing. Was beginning to think it might be blocked up and then I noticed this under the table top.

That spring is on the end of a lever and goes down to the treadle. Pressed the treadle and away it went. I was so happy. Felt a proper nana for not spotting it earlier. Good suction too.

Don't know if there's a spark arrester in there somewhere. If not just have to make sure the sharpening stone is well clear when in use.

Better pics later when I've cleared everything up.

[toxo]

After cleaning it up a bit I started to put it back together. The safety guard over the bell knife was severely out of shape and was was actually touching the blade in places. A few clumps with a hammer got it in reasonable shape. The drive belt was much too loose so sorted that. There is only two presser feet one 1 inch and one 2 inch. they both have a severe sloped profile which I think is unusual. The waste bag had foam in it so maybe the sloped feet is for foam. I gingerly switched it on and tried a piece of leather. The feed roller is smooth and slightly out of shape so I helped it along with hardly any force and blow me down it did a very nice skive first time. I'm proper made up.

[toxo]

More tweaking today. The safety guard was way too high for the leather to climb once it left the blade so I bashed it a bit so it can work by feeding it in rather than waste an inch so I can pull it. still some work to be done and pieces to replace but it's working as it should.

Most of this afternoon was taken up by the vacuum system. There's a sort of elbow by the blade and I'm not sure which way it should be pointing. There isn't much room in there. I think I'll end up cutting the elbow off at the table level unless someone tells me different. The other frustrating thing about the vacuum is that it doesn't come on if using the skiver at low speed.. There's a chain connecting to the treadle and I tried various links to no avail. One link is on all the time, the next one up doesn't start the vacuum at low speed. I think the answer is gonna be some sort of airline switch.

[toxo]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:25 AM, RockyAussie said:

Show me some pics of the pins in the shaft as well. To be safe I will try and get some pics on here showing the gear section behind that shaft. You will need to take off the top cover and check that there is some grease in there and that the cogs are not all broken in there. Having that shaft not connected does not sound good. This is what

that shaft should look like -

This gear box at the back shows a top cover plate that can be removed with three screws - Inside you should see oily grease and if it looks dodgy you will need to clean it all out to inspect.

 

Please help me out here Brian. There seems to be something wrong with the clutch mechanism. Maybe somethings missing but I can't stop the sharpening stone turning and I can't get my head around the way the clutch is supposed to work. You can see in one of the pics that a pin or something is sheared off.

 

[toxo]

OK got some good stuff done today and everything's working well except the whetstone turning. I will try to get to the bottom of it but for the amount of use it'll get it's not a big deal if it stays the same. Messed around with the vacuum, changed the shape of the nozzle and tried it in different places. Ist time, saw the leather coming off the back of the knife so positioned the nozzle there, well blow me down everything came off the front of the knife so changed it and it caught everything except one piece but that was probably down to a different speed. First off skived 2mm VT down to 1mm and that was ok except the backside was very slightly furry so I sharpened the blade and it was really good. It even took a piece of 2.5mm VT down to 1mm in one pass. Well happy. Now I have to clear up the bombsite that used to be my project room so I can do some proper work.

[RockyAussie]

On 12/26/2021 at 9:44 AM, toxo said:

There seems to be something wrong with the clutch mechanism. Maybe somethings missing but I can't stop the sharpening stone turning and I can't get my head around the way the clutch is supposed to work. You can see in one of the pics that a pin or something is sheared off.

Sorry for the delayed answer mate ...been having a bit of a holiday. I don't see any pics with the broken pin you mention. The clutch should disengage normally when you lift the lever up and it should want to sit in the hollow beneath it. When the clutch is engaged it should look like this pic

To disengage it you should only need to push it upward like as shown

To engage you just pull the lever forward and push it down ( in this pic note that there is a tab underneath that can be adjusted to hold the lever higher up if needed). Is the pin on the back of your lever missing??? Does is disengage when you hold the lever up??

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by RockyAussie

[RockyAussie]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:45 AM, toxo said:

Most of this afternoon was taken up by the vacuum system. There's a sort of elbow by the blade and I'm not sure which way it should be pointing

Here are a couple of pictures from the set up up on my Fortuna that may help ....

Re the vacuum ...consider just letting it run always when the machine is on. Just put a switch to turn it of or on when you need to sharpen perhaps. The Fortuna and the FAV machine I have have the vacuum always running when the machine is running.