katsass

Very nice work. Mike

well guy, I learned to hand stitch a long time ago, with waxed linen thread. After trying some different synthetic threads, I still used waxed linen. I make holsters and items associated with shooting sports and a #6 overstitch is ideal for most jobs. As to stitching my advice is to take your time, concentrate, and make every stitch EXACTLY the same as the one preceding it. Here's a sample of my hand stitching. OH, I just purchase Waxed Linen Thread from Springfield Leather. Mike

Thanks greg, the thing takes a little time to hand stitch though. Mike

I'm with BearMan on this. Denatured alcohol is the proper way to go. Easily procured from the local Lowes, Home Depot or lumber yard. Mike

You are right! BUT we can still go to Lowe's or the Home Depot and get the Weldwood. But you sure can't get any decent leather dye unless you order out of state.. Mike

From the grumpy old guy; I'm right in there with Greg, didn't know that this type of shooting had jumped 'across the pond'. Here's my take on the 'Wild Bunch' holster. Mike

From the grumpy old guy; I lurk here a lot, and add a comment or two when I feel it warranted or when I feel that I may add an idea or experience which may assist someone. I get the hell out leave the thread alone when my voice would just be reiterating the same advice in repetition, or when someones 'knowledge' and/or ego seems to be getting in the way of constructive comment --- I just see no reason in that sort of thing. One thing I seem to have noticed is that many different styles of rigs are presented on here, and certain styles seem to be in vogue regionally, ie. that which is popular in the mid-west may not do as well in the mountain states or out here in the desert. I personally have had but one request for and IWB holster in the last five years. That one was changed to an inside the belt rig, and a year or so later the customer met me and thanked me for the suggestion.and the change. Of course, I'm but a dinky little outfit that makes items to order and in no way am I 'THE EXPERT' on the ergo-dynamics and geometric relationships between anatomical structure of the human creature and a chunk of dead cow skin. I just know (think that I know?) what I can make work well for my customers. One thing I do know however, is that lack of age or experience really is no block for ideas. Thinking along a different line than tradition dictates is the seed of invention.and I dislike seeing contention rear it's uncomely countenance in, what I would expect to be a positive, or at the least, a non confrontational congress of ideas. Mike

FWIW, Not knowing if it's available 'down under' but I have used 'Weldwood Contact Cement' for a whole bunch of years and am totally satisfied with the stuff. I use it to bond two layers of 4/5 or 5/6 (or in combination) veg tanned to make my holsters from, and have never had a problem. Mike

OK, the old grumpy guy will give it a go; I don't use that stuff, never have, BUT almost all of my holsters are smooth inside from my method of construction. Tight stitching and good molding take care of retention. Mike

Well, the worst I ever heard of was a LEO from my Dept.that just always seemed to step in it. He hit a public restroom, jumped into a stall, and dropped his trousers. His off duty shooter somehow fell and skidded into the next (occupied) stall. That patron beat feet it out in a hurry and called the Dept. to report a strange man playing with a gun in the restroom. Mike

tk, I think you are correct in the variable factors effecting the longevity of holsters. Leather, stitching, design, care and environment all come to my mind. It seems to me that over the past 50 or so years, commercial construction of holsters has leaned toward lighter leather. I'm not sure, however I have a suspicion that commercial makers 'introduce' firmness in their rigs in the molding stage, possibility with an alcohol bath., to make up for the lighter weight, along with much more 'boning' type molding. I do use lighter leather than most, however I use two layers of it, bonded together to reach the weight I feel sufficient to the task. John Bianchi started out doing this, however I am sure that this type of construction can cause difficulties in the mechanized manufacturing process --- as well as increased cost. I don't see any commercial mass produced pieces made this way. As to stitching I feel that hand saddle stitching will hold up better than the machine lock stitch. Hand stitching however is generally not compatible with modern machinery and construction techniques --- if for no other reason but cost. Many outfits like to use synthetic stitching thread, I just don't care for it. Some years ago while involved in the testing of commercial holsters which may be issued to the troops, a unique problem arose with a new model holster from a large, well know manufacturer. The holster was a 'sandwich' style, stitched (by machine) on both edges with a monofilament thread. A small (around 100 #) female clerk was recruited to do nothing more than firmly grasp the butt of the holstered (blue) gun, then fall to the ground while holding on to the shooter. That holster unzipped like tearing a postage stamp from a perforated page. Naturally it was not selected by the Dept. The upshot in my mind is that many of the synthetics will cut through leather easier than good old waxed linen thread. Now, I was taught to stitch by a WWI cavalry soldier, and a grumpier, louder and more profane speaking old man there never was, but he taught me how to stitch well --- at least I believe so. He swore that no machine stitch will hold up as well as a well done saddle stitch. Later I heard the the Army (back then) would not even purchase tack for their horses unless it was hand stitched. Actually I believe what he said, after fully understanding the machine made lock stitch. Care and environment go hand in hand, in my opinion. The type of care for a rig worn along the gulf coast will differ from one worn out here in the desert. Different climate = different needs for the leather. As to design, I'm very much a traditionalist. I don't care much for straps, multi-carry options or 'adjustable' things. To me, less is more, generally speaking. Along the lines of design we get into concealed carry. A truism for concealed carry is that "you dress to conceal". A whole bunch of folks argue this point, swearing up and down that they can carry a full sized 1911 while clad in shorts, a tank top and flip flops while the shooter remains totally concealed. They even point to the fact that 'George' down the street, or the wife just can't see their gun while clad this way. That may be so, but George nor Mama are the bad guys. The real bad guy, one that has spent time in the joint or even a County jail, has learned to OBSERVE. They watch everyone and anything going on while sitting,behind bars, walking the yard, or on a work detail. They note the slightest things, and often the biggest give away to a person carrying concealed is the person himself. With the weight of a shooter on your hip, forward in your appendix,or in the small of your back, unconscious movements will give you away. It actually takes years of constant carry to become (almost) unaware of that thing on your belt or in a shoulder rig. I don't know how often I have observed a LEO unconsciously reach down and reposition that heavy Sam Browne rig on his waist, but it's a lot.. Most folks don't even pay attention to the folks around them. Who looks at the guy standing outside the market as you enter. What is different about someone sitting and relaxing in the mall. If they are the bad guy, they are watching people, and nobody notices them. as they look for victims --- AND the plain clothes cop. OK, I'm off the soapbox. Thank you for your opinion of my work, I appreciate it. We do have different styles and that's just as things should be. All of my stuff is made to order, however a local sporting goods store has asked me to make a couple of samples. They feel that an actual holster or two would assist in sales for me, and I'm sure that they are right. As soon as I can clean up what orders I do have I'm considering making one for a 1911 and possibly one for a Smith K-Frame. When that occurs I wouldn't be too opposed to shipping one to you to play with for a week or two prior to getting it over to the store. Good luck in your leatherwork. Mike

KAYAK; Since malabar and I were speaking of an entirely different holster set-up, the original post was completely out of my thoughts. Your kind and courteous elucidation should be a fine example to us all. Thank you. Mike[/url]

Well KAYAK, from the old grump; I don't use any metal in my work, and I don't think that malabar does either. The pic of the little rig I enclosed was made by Smith& Wesson or possibly Bucheimer (spelling?). It was made back in the late '50s but ended up being discontinued. Mike

From the grump; As to a firm holster, I use two layers of 4/5, 5/6, or a mix of each. I bond them together on their flesh sides to form a single piece of workable material. With two grain layers, when properly molded, warmed and dried, I get very firm holsters --- much more rigid than a single piece of equal weight. It does take a bit more stitching, however, but you end up with a lined holster in effect, along with the ability to dye different colors. I agree, a 'forever' rig doesn't seem logical, however by looking through the book "Packing Iron" I see quite a few holsters that sure look serviceable --- at 100+ years of age. If mine last anything close of that long I'll be happy --- and long gone. Maybe someday down the road someone will find an old one of mine, see the 'katsass' logo, and scratch his head in curiosity. OTOH I don't think much of Kydex for holsters, it just goes against the grain, sort of. But, as a paddle attached to the back of the holster, that goes inside the belt (and trousers) and is molded roughly to the thigh, it might provide some (enough?) stability against 'fall-out' --- just a thought. Mike

The little paddle was (is) a steel belt loop, the belt goes through it --- no straps. The pic I found on Google showed up after I looked for '1950 style semi-shoulder holster'. As I said before it isn't too good a pic. I'm digging around to see if I can find a better one. I think that that was the biggest problem --- everything rode on the belt. and the addition of a paddle would have made it work --- maybe. OH, this rig was made by Smith & Wesson. Mike TIME LAPSE - I found the pic again and got a better one to see, so disregard my statement(s) on the belt loop.. OK, I guess that I'm getting old and my memory is fading --- among other things. It looks like the damned thing is attached to the belt with (narrow) straps, not quite how I remembered it.--- but, as said, I must be getting old. I would think that maybe a Kydex paddle (similar to AKER's type) would do he rig a whole bunch of help, along with heavier straps.. As I mentioned, these rigs had interchangeable holsters, all the way up to 4" Colt and S&W wheelguns. S&W may have made them for their 39 series auto's at the time but since LEO's in the Dept I was in were not allowed auto's back then,(officially) we didn't carry them anywhere that the brass could see them, so I never saw one for an auto.. Mike P.S. These 'pull-through' holsters would loosen up after time, even with the tension screw. I have an old Hoyte shoulder rig in my junk somewhere that I ended up puting a safety strap on to ensure that I didn't lose a Mod 19 Smith while leaning out of a helecopter --- as a friend of mine did. An old lady found his shooter on the edge of a dry lakebed and brought it into the office about two weeks later. He took a bunch of crap over that one.

Well, the holster was available in the late '50's sometime and into about '61 or so, i don't remember who made it. Actually it was a 'pull through' holster in that the gun was pulled through where the welt would be. Adjustable spring tension helped hold the shooter in the holster. Any auto with a bunch of weight in the grip will be difficult to keep in tight I expect. I carried a Glock 21 for a while on duty and it did well in a duty holster, but I could carry my S&W 539 (all steel) which actually weighed more than the loaded Glock, while off duty because the balance was better. Anyhoo, I do hope that you have the answer to carrying a hi-rise rig. Mike P.S. I actually carried a 3" S&W M-24 more than anything else off duty. P.P.S. There is a pic of a semi-shoulder rig on Google Images. It shows a J Frame Smith in it but doesn't show the setup very well. With anything larger than the litte Smith the thing just didn't work too well --- especially for the money back then.

From the old grump; malabar, let me first say that I have absolutely no kicks with your workmanship in any way, you've done good, however, being old enough to have seen high ride holsters of many designs come and go, I think that you'll find that your rig MAY (notice that I say MAY) begin to 'fall-out' fairly soon. You have two (nice and wide) straps which are a weak point IMO, but not the only one. Being as low down as they are they will tend to have the weight of the shooter trying to pull away from the wearer's body from the start, thus applying a stretching torque to them right from day one. Being replaceable you have obviously taken this into consideration, but may not realized how fast the stretching may take place, and also where it may take place. High ride holster have a limit and apply a different type of pull to the belt carrying them, the belt will also try to stretch away from the body, more so as the gun rides higher. Years ago there was a rig (one of the best designed IMO) called the 'semi-shoulder' rig, that utilized high riding, cross draw, breakfront holsters. It was two piece (with inter-changeable holsters) which consisted of a 4" to 5" leather covered steel belt loop. It had a steel lined tang which rose about 2" above the belt. To this was attached the holster (with steel lining in it's back) by use of 'pull-the-dot' snaps. The holsters rode with the gun's muzzle just below the bottom of the belt --- as does yours. Those puppies sold like hotcakes! They then went the way of the unicorn. The 'fall-out' just could not be controlled, the belt was also under tension and stretched. 'Fall-out' ultimately reared it's ugly head and the holsters (luckily convertible to standard belt wear) ended up down on the wearer's waist. Now I'm considered a somewhat grumpy, old (some say that when I was born the Dead Sea was only a little bit sick) and a bit pessimistic. I'm not saying that your design will ultimately fall prey to 'fall-out', however, I'd wear one for five or six hours daily for some months to prove the design. Actually, I hope it works. Mike

FWIW from the old grump; I only use shoulder leather for my holsters, and generally, that's about all I make. I don't buy from Tandy anymore, although I did for a number of years prior to their re-structuring. I use lighter leather than most, as I bond two layers together to make a single thickness of leather, smooth on each side, for most all of my work. A back has a lot of leather that could be used, but also a lot that I wouldn't use for holsters. JMHO. Mike

Shooter, the color is Fiebing's 'Cordovan' Leather Dye, mixed 50/50 with denatured alcohol and (in a one oz spray bottle) four drops of Fiebing's Dark Brown Pro Oil dye. I use a real cheap Harbor Freight airbrush to apply. When dry, I shoot it with a light coat of neatsfoot oil from the same airbrush. 24 hours after the oil is applied, I use a 50/50 mix of 'Mop and Glo' and water and MIST on two coats with the airbrush, with about a 1/2 hour between coats. Finally, when dry I hand rub (no applicator or rag etc.) in a very light coat of Kiwi Neutral polish and buff with a soft rag.

Thanks to all for the kind words. Seems odd, but lately I have been getting more calls for western style stuff. Mike

FWIW from the old grump; You have a few problems. Right off the belt loops are way too low. That shooter will start to lean out away from you --- SOON. The muzzle will dig into you and the butt will hang out away from you. The leather covers the mag release which can leave you with egg on your face as the mag drops to the ground as you come on target. Bad if you are working on the range --- deadly if you were to be in need as a personal defence weapon. Your stitching is nonexistent along the top of the slide and isn't any better on the lower side. Stitching on both sides needs to be close to your shooter --- it provides the initial portion of the retention, molding adds the rest. The 'contour' inside the trigger guard Is something I would do with only a gentle hand. Too much and you CAN cause the trigger to do things at times you would not like, and to totally rely on mechanical safeties is not always wise. Also, if you think about it, every time you draw or reholster the weapon, you push that deep molding out of shape anyway. I enclose a pic of a little pancake holster done by me way back in the '60s ( before I was more informed on some things) but it shows where the stitching needs to be. This one rode a bit too high also, but being for a Llama .380 (a mini 1911 in most ways) shows some of what I have mentioned. There are other things, but these items are the most important I feel. Hope this helps. Mike

A little while ago I was contacted by a gentleman that 'needed' a holster and belt for a 'Ruger single action sixgun'. We spoke over the phone and finally met to discuss his ideas. Finding out that he had no specific thoughts on the rig, I showed him my copy of "Packing Iron" from which he finally selected a 100+ year old belt and holster. He said that he would like it to be as close as possible to the one selected. I figured that the gun was a standard Ruger Blackhawk and felt that it would be a good choice for him --- then he produced the shooter, a Ruger Super Blackhawk in stainless steel and with a 7 1/2" barrel. After some playing with the design for a bit, this is my result. Mike

From the grump; You done good! I'm very traditional in my ideas of how leather stuff should look and be done, and this really the type of stuff I enjoy seeing. Mike

From the grumpy old guy; Dwight has it down pretty darned well. I make my holsters a bit differently than most. I use two layers of lighter leather bonded together on their flesh sides to produce a single workable piece of leather for construction.. I do this for a couple of reasons, but one is that all of the rigidity and firmness of the leather is formed in the grain layer of that deceased cow's skin. In my method, there are two grain layers, which produce a very firm holster. I use the gun for which the holster is being made when molding (the gun is placed in a plastic freezer bag). I stuff that shooter down in a FAIRLY wet holster, mold carefully by hand and, most of the year (as I live in the desert) I stick the thing in the bright sun until mostly set. Notice that I didn't mention 'boning'. My method of construction precludes boning, and molding and boning are two different things IMO. I then carefully ease the shooter out and allow old MA Nature finish off the drying. In winter I usually have to resort to a cardboard box with the wet holster sitting up off the surface of the cardboard, and place a small space heater facing into it, fan on 'HI', thus blowing warm air over the rig in question. The idea is to remove the moisture as rapidly as possible while heating the thing to a point NOT TO EXCEED 150 degrees, 130 is good. Use of the kitchen oven is NOT recommended. The combination of the rather rapid removal of moisture and heat firms up the leather. As Dwight says, correct stitching is also a must. Mike

From the old grump; I use an old Osborne awl with a blade of 1 1/2 long and about 1/8" wide.It fits well within the groove and works well for the #1 and #0 needles that I use. Mike