Wizcrafts

I think you have misunderstood me. The Puritan Alligator machine and its shorter arm brothers are designed to sew up the arm (left/right). The machines known as shoe patchers have 360 degree feed (18" arm max) and the old Singer Class 11 includes a model that sews up the arm. Unless somebody makes another machine with this capability, all the rest sew across the arm (forward/backward). All of the 441 machines sew across the arm. While there are other chainstitch machines made for sewing garments, only the Puritan is strong enough to sew leather bags and luggage. It uses an awl to pierce the material, then a barbed needle comes up to feed the material. As the needle descends below the material, a bottom lever loops the thread around itself, forming a chain. These machines have no bobbin. All standard leather sewing machines have bobbins and the top thread gets pulled around the bobbin, grabbing the bobbin thread and pulling it into the material, to form the lockstitch. Both sides are finished in lockstitch machines. They are the standard in most industries. You should visit some industrial sewing machine dealers and describe your project to them. Keep going until you find one who knows how these bags are sewn. Or, contact our member-dealers who advertise on this website. I suspect that Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines might have something you can use to sew up the arm.

It looks like the golf bag in your photo was sewn on a Puritan Alligator, with a 36 inch arm. This machine sews up the arm, as opposed to around the end. A second machine is used to sew the ends around a vertical post or the end of an arm. Puritan machines are chainstitch machines, used in professional factories to make bags, luggage and work boots, where the chain is invisible. They are capable of sewing through aluminum and plywood. All normal leathercraft work is sewn on lockstitch machines. If you want to duplicate the results of professional golf bag manufacturers, you'll need at least two machines (up the snout and across the snout). The $2000 you mentioned might be a down payment on just one of them! You might be advised to contact Puritan for their recommendations. Keep in mind that these bags are sewn up the arm and across the arm. This requires two different machines. If they are lined with wood, heavy plastic, or wood, you should use a needle and awl machine. Puritans meet these requirements and are the standard machines used in the golf bag industry. If it was me, I'd figure out a way to sew them on a standard cylinder arm machine.

I just read on the Puritan website that they make chainstitch cylinder arm machines that sew up the arm! The longest so far is a 36" arm!

Golf bags are usually sewn on Puritan chain stitch machines, with 36 inch high posts. The mechanism is needle and awl. The thread is usually linen and run through liquid wax, but bonded polyester will do fine. Puritan machines are made and sold in the USA.. If a Puritan is not in your budget, a long arm, big bobbin, Adler 30-70 patcher will do. It is also possible to sew golf bags on a 441 clone, like a Cowboy or Cobra. You would want at least a 16.5 inch arm, but the 25 inch arm would make it easier to sew along the center of the bag. The length would have to be sewn together, wrong sides out, then inverted to have the bottom plug sewn on with a French seam.

I am lowering my price for my Union Lockstitch machine to $2500, cash and carry, from Flint, Michigan, 48506. The full description can be found in my previous posts in this topic and on my leather works website. This is a needle and awl harness stitcher.

A close up photo would be a big help in IDing your machine.

I have two SewPro 500GR servo motors I bought from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. They have 3:1 gear reduction built in and a 2" pulley. These easy to control motors, which they now call the Toledo Sew Slow, have plenty of low speed torque and bolt into the same three holes as your clutch motor. The belt may need to be shorter, as this motor sits a little closer to the underside of the table. The boys are heading out to Wyoming for the big leather craft show this week, but are going to be checking messages. You can email them at: "information AT tolindsewmach DOT com"

As the last responder mentioned, servo motors are *usually* much more controllable at slow speeds than clutch motors. Unfortunately, some people are getting push button servo motors that are very touchy at slow speeds. These motors don't have a smooth taper from off to on, just a sudden drop out/jump in. The motor I like the best, and I've had quite a few, is the one now sold by Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines as the Toledo Sew Slow. It was previously sold as the SewPro 500GR and has built in 3:1 speed reduction/torque multiplication. This motor has a rotary knob on the back to limit the top speed and has a very smooth taper from off to on, with lots of slow speed range of motion. It even has a brake that releases with a slight movement of your toe on the floor pedal. I see no reason why you couldn't buy a new or used industrial sewing machine table on k-legs, with a standard 7" x 19" machine cutout and an oil drip pan, plus the slot for the belt, delivered knocked down in a box, or assembled on a pallet, for a couple and a half hundred bucks. Then, buy the aforementioned motor and 3L v-belt (length to be determined later) and bolt it onto the bottom of the table, using the existing standard three holes. The motor comes with three carriage bolts, and cable clamps for the wiring. The switch box screws onto the right front of the underside. As for the thickness the 111 can sew, that varies somewhat with the presser feet you use, but you should be able to get up to between 5/16 to 3/8 inch sewn with it. It easily handles #138 bonded thread. There are dozens of different types of presser feet available for the Singer 111. I prefer left toe only, which allows me to sew close to the edge of straps or cases (using a swing-away edge guide). The standard outer foot has a double toe. Upholsterers usually remove it and replace it with a piping foot set. These often-heavy feet can reduce the sew-able thickness a bit.

Art; That sounds like a good plan. I will work on it this weekend. I have to go make holsters and sew stuff today. Catch you later on...

Wait until I have time to review what all I've posted in this huge topic. I want to make sure there is nothing I left out that would be relevant to the topic. I'll let you know if/when to lock this topic. Till then I'll try to steer new posters into starting their own topics.

Please post your questions as a new topic on the forum. You will get all kinds of answers from our sewing members.

No, I don't. You should start a new topic and ask for other members who might know about that machine. This topic is for general information about types of machines for sewing leather, not specifics about any particular make or model (although it sometimes gets that way).

Ya got me figured out Pilgrim. I admit being addicted to old sewing machines.

Cheryl; I guess I like the little bugger, especially after all the time I put into rebuilding the motor and associated gears. It will still make a nice on-location machine for hemming things, or repairing dress belts on location (flea markets, bike shows, etc). It is in a carrying case, not a table. Now I understand the speed problem you have. That old pushbutton foot pedal is not easily controlled, especially when it is so old. The pot pedal that came with mine finally lost its slow speeds and I had to replace it. Wish I'd done that sooner.

My Singer 15-91 sews about the same as yours does on leather. It is okay up to about 1/8 to 3/16 inch, then it gets very hard to penetrate additional layers or feed them without dragging down the stitch length. It only uses thin #69 thread (11 pound test). I did try to use a #20 needle and #138 thread in mine and almost blew up the motor. You can buy a solid state control pedal that will give you much better control of the motor. I got mine from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. I had to wire it up, but from what I read from you, wiring a pedal won't be a problem. BTW: I bought my 15-91 from a local Salvation Army store for $75.00 plus tax. I now have about $175 in it, after buying replacement parts, an even-feed foot and the solid state pedal.

Neither of those machines has been produced in a very long time. The 7-25 is very ancient and you may have a hard time finding any parts for it, should it need any. Parts for the Singer 132k6 may be available from former Singer industrial sewing machine dealers. I once had a 132k6 and found it to be an excellent machine for sewing thick buffing wheels and nylon webbing projects. It was so-so on leather, due to the sometimes unpredictable snap action of the spring foot. If you can tame the spring foot, the 132k6 can stitch as long as 2 to the inch (12.5 mm), with #277 thread, into no more than 1/2 inch of leather, webbing, or cloth. Feed is via bottom feed dog and a spring loaded snap-forward outer foot that follows the top layer as it moves back. If the spring snaps forward too soon, stitch length varies all over the place. This happened to me when I tried to edge stitch belts that had been polished with Carnauba creme, or glossy wax. You would be better served with a modern, still in production, walking foot machine with triple feed and a large bobbin. Most of these machines can sew 3/8 inch (10 mm) of leather, with up to #207 bonded thread, using a #24 leather point needle.

That machine resembles a Cowboy CB2500 and Techsew GA5-1. If this machine has the same specs, it can sew up to 7/16 inch of leather, using needle sizes 23 through 26 (plus or minus a size). It can handle thread sizes 138 through 346. Like the aforementioned machines, it will be bottom feed only, with a flat fixed presser foot and has a large cylindrical bobbin. These machines are based on the ancient Singer 45k25. They are good machines for sewing just under a half inch, but where the tooth marks on the bottom are not normally seen, or considered unacceptable by the end buyers of the goods produced on the machine.

If any of you are going to the Sheridan Wyoming leather show this month, I could get the Union Lockstitch to the show with a friend who will carry it for $200. I'd need to know by Tuesday, May 8, to have time to break it down and get it to him. Otherwise, the deal is cash and carry from Flint, Michigan, or you pay someone to have it picked up and trucked to you. Call me at eight one oh - four two two - five three oh one

Doug has informed me that he might be willing to trade the Randall R132 strap cutter (with all extra parts) for an Adler 205-374, complete, in good working condition. Otherwise, the machine is still for sale for $3500, cash and carry, Flint, Michigan. If you want it shipped, you'll have to pay him extra for palletizing it, etc. Since his business hours now vary, please leave a message on his machine if nobody answers your call. His name and number is: Doug Monroe 810-732-4907

A lot of the 29-4 patchers were built in the 1920s and 30s. They were used by cobblers for shoe and boot repairs. Most were badly worn out by their 50th birthday.

If you have $1200 to spend on a sewing machine, why are you looking at a century old shoe upper patcher? What do you intend to sew with your next machine?

Without seeing close-up photos and a report concerning the play in the presser bar/feed crank, I would have to advise you that, unless the machine has no more than a few dozen hours of use, $1200 is more than unfair; it is highway robbery. The machine is probably between 90 to 100 years old, and while that in itself does not determine its worth, the amount of slack in the feed and shuttle driver mechanisms and condition/absence of required tensioning components does. If you go and inspect the machine and find it to be in very good condition, with almost immeasurable slack in the presser foot feed mechanism, $500 to $600 would be a more than generous (private party) offer. OTOH, if there is considerable free movement of the lifted presser foot (forward/backward), or tensioning parts are missing, binding, or broken, $250 - $300 would be a fair price, considering what it will cost to have it brought up to specs. A worn out 29-4 patcher will have a small maximum stitch length, or may not feed at all. Even if it is as tight as the day it was built, 5 stitches per inch is all it will give, into about 1/8 inch of leather. At 1/4 inch, the maximum it can sew, the stitch length may drop to no more than 6 or 7 per inch. The 29-4 is not suitable for use with thread heavier than #92, top and bottom. The bobbins are very tiny and don't hold very much thread. The machine was made for repairing tears in boots and shoes (with frequent bobbin and top thread color changes) and is most frequently used to sew patches onto leather biker vests. The only way a 29-4 would be worth more is if it has been rebuilt by an industrial sewing machine mechanic who is selling it through a dealership with some warranty. The dealer would have presumably replaced all worn, broken and missing parts, timed it, tensioned it and tested it on leather. They will also be able to supply needles, bobbins and bobbin cases for it, as well as a threading rod and thread. Such a rebuilt to specs machine could go for upwards of $1000, treadle operated. Patchers mounted on cast iron bases are not easily converted to motorized machines, with the exception of using a 1.5 amp (150 watt) home style motor and solid state controller. The motor bracket would have to be custom fitted to a hole you would have to drill and tap into the lower back section of the machine. I have such a setup on my long arm Singer patcher and the motor can barely start the machine on its own. Perhaps it would be easier to turn over a little bitty 29-4.

I use #138 thread on guitar straps, sewn at about 5 stitches per inch, with a #23 needle. For belts, it depends on the style and thickness of the belt. Dress belts, as Art mentioned, are usually sewn with thin thread, like #69. The thread is only there to keep the glued thin layers from separating over time. The stitching is not usually noticed by the wearer or other people. Dress belts are often sewn at 8 to 10 stitches per inch, with a #16 needle and #69 thread. Move up to more serious 8 ounce veg-tan belts that are lined with 4 ounces of suede, and you need at least #138 thread (w/ #22 or #23 needle) to properly secure that package. 6 to 7 stitches per inch is about normal for these belts. Ramp it up a notch, Bam! If you build double leather belts, between 3/16 to 5/16 inch thick, the thread I use is #277, sewn with a #25 needle, at 4.5 to 5 stitches per inch. If you decide to enter the Stratosphere and make gun belts and weight belts that approach 3/8 inch thickness in areas, you may prefer to use #346 thread, sewn with a #26 or #27 needle, with a stitch length of 4 to the inch. All of the above examples are based on my own experience and opinion. Whenever possible, use an S point leather needle. Since your questions pertain to a Toro 441 clone, you are limited in the sizes of needle available with a leather point. Most of our dealers only stock S point, system 794 needles in sizes 23 and up. If you need to sew with thinner thread and smaller needles, they will probably be regular round point needles.

I hate to have to tell you this, but that machine is probably not ever going to sew with #346 bonded thread. Not unless the dealer changes the needle bar to take system 328 needles, which are available in sizes 23 up. It takes a #26 or larger needle to sew with #346 thread. The machine you linked to takes up to a #23 needle, which is for #207 thread, maximum. If you intend to sew with #346 thread, consider a machine such as the CB2500 or GA1-5

Check with any upholstery shops. They always have extra walking foot machines on the floor somewhere. Drapery shops sometimes use walking foot machines. Leather garment makers and repairers use walking foot machines. Other than these, you will be struggling with a straight stitch machine if you try to sew real leather, using #138 thread.