Alan Bell

I was taught to build a ground seat with a strainer and cut the hand hold as I went along but saw Dale Harwood do it by cutting the hand hold after the ground seat was done. I am wanting to try it this way for the first time and want to make sure of the steps before I do it. 1) I stretch the strainer cover and glue it in place. 2) I tack down the strainer 3) I poke reference holes in the strainer cover at the corner where the strainer meets the swells?????? 4) I apply glue to the first piece only where it touches the strainer and behind where the stirrup slots are 5) I apply glue to the second piece but leave a gap for the stirrup leather 6) I apply glue to the final piece leaving the gap for the stirrup leather 7) I cut the strainer cover loose using the reference marks forward along the back of the swell and moisten???? 8) I cut the hand hold out of the dry ground seat and cover the cut with the strainer cover 9) I cut the stirrup leather gap leaving the top ground seat cut on an angle with a bit of a "flap" for the transition 10) I proudly say "I did it! All by myself!!" Am I missing any steps or completely off target? Thanks in advance for any help. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Mort, I think you are having a bit of trouble reading what has already been written. If I may be so bold as to speak for Rod and Denise (most of the time it is Denise you are talking to but Rod does touch the keys occasionally) They have said they use Dennis Lanes system to measure horses to get body type; they have said they do not change the tree for different disciplines. And you contradict yourself http://leatherworker.net/forum/style_emoti...usa_naughty.gif because on your post on Dec. 3rd you said Double Diamond's owner found that the industry was wrong about bar types and fitting the tree by type was not the way to go and they found this by using the pressure pad system and here you are saying the exact opposite was found by using the pressure system! That's the problem with re-inventing something .... it get's confusing (believe me I know just check some of MY old post!!) The bottom line as I see it is there are already solutions to the problems you seem to have with the saddle industry whether it is fit, cost, time or material and unless you can get a voice out of the burning bush or bring a plague of frogs or your staff can turn into a snake and eat all of the Pharaoh's magicians snakes you won't get any followers when you cross the sea. This is not a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" it's just simply "IT AIN'T BROKE"! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

When Rick puts those saddles up for auction he also offers a photo book that shows every step of the saddle construction and every day, every step, every detail is described by Rick in rhyme!!!! On that saddle (i believe) the inside of the stirrup thread had over 7000 swivel knife cuts! He's got a great wit and is a happy kind of person and still fairly quite. His art and saddles speaks volumes though! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Hello Sittinguphigh, I guess you are trying to re invent the wheel! I am a novice saddle maker and I like to do a lot of research too. If you found 1 endurance rider that felt the manufactured saddle fit her horse better than a custom saddle I can find 2 with custom saddles that say just the opposite so that argument becomes mute. If you are looking for a "better cheaper" way I'm reminded of what Neal Armstrong, the American test pilot said when asked what was the last thing he thought about before he flew in and experimental aircraft (he was the first to fly the 4000 mph X - 15)! They were expecting him to say he thought about his mom or maybe that he would be making history or the great achievement it would be for mankind but he said: "The last thing I think about before flying an experimental airplane is that it was built by the lowest bidder!" Cheaper isn't always better! If you are using pressure mapping to create the perfect bar shape it will only work in the imaginary "perfect world" where the rider is sitting perfectly balanced and the horse moves perfectly balanced. I've yet to see that. I've seen some really good riders and really good horses but at some point the rider will shift his/her weight or the horse will lean this way or that and your pressure map is all wrong. The best you can do is TRY to have the most bar surface you can in contact with the horses back MOST of the time. Unless I'm missing something and that is quite possible too! If you are trying to cut down on the wait time for a custom saddle most folks will by the cheap cheap saddle to ride for the year that they are waiting for their custom saddle and then sell the cheap cheap saddle....you can see them for sale on Ebay right now....Lots of em. If YOU are happy with the factory saddle you have now then that is great for you but you seem to be 'pushing' , 'peddling' , 'endorsing', 'recommending' , 'suggesting' that carbon fiber trees are the answer to all the horse world ailments and Xenophon would have ridden one if he had only been a little smarter. In other words...where is this conversation leading to? And by the way how is flipping the casting you've done for the bottom of the bars over going to make anything worthwhile for the shape on the top of the bars unless your butt is the inverted shape of the horses back? Just curious? Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

The rod is a piece of all thread and the wood at the top has either a nut counter sunk into it at top and bottom or a little deal you tap into the wood at the top and bottom. The handle or crank can be just about anything that the all thread is set into and held in place so that when it turns the all thread turns. Mine is a big round piece of wood from Home Depot that was supposed to be a knob on the end post of a hand rail for a stairwell. Really a great design and pretty simple. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Thanks for taking time to explain all that Bob, I do have the Likewise book but not right here in front of me so when I get home I will get it out and look for the elements you are talking about and compare. I gives me a better understanding of Sheridan to understand what Don King was trying to create when he created "Sheridan" from Traditional. It also helps me know what I am doing when I am trying to do some "Sheridan" tooling practice. I know what i want to do but for some reason I can't seem to re create it myself. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

I am curious Hidepounder, what design elements do you feel exclude this piece from being Sheridan and would make it Traditional Western and what elements take it from Traditional Western to Stohlman. I am having trouble finding my own niche. I prefer/like what I see as Sheridan as opposed to what I see as Stohlman but I would have thought this piece was a Sheridan piece mostly because of the thin "bouquets" and the size of the leaves. As I understand things Don King used finer "bouquets" than was Traditional in creating Sheridan and hence the need for sharper angled bevelers and finer shaders. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

I use those little razor blades although you can use just about anything that is kept sharp. The soap will make the roo stretch but you have to get things just right and it will make the braiding come out smoother. As far as I know regular saddle soap is the thing to use preferably white but it could be yellow. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Very nice job Rawhider. The only thing I really notice is the two extra ring knots on the reins that are not on the romal and a question did you bevel the flesh side of the 'roo? I think a lot of 'roo braiders soap the strings pretty good while braiding just like rawhide and that may be something to try also. I'm working on a set of rawhide reins now so I may have pics to post soon. Very good looking set of reins!! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

That test just proves the superiority of the hide covered tree for making saddles to put on horses! The carbon fiber tree has no 'life' to it. You might as well use a piece of steel across the horses back! As Johanna points out the test is not really a fair one if we are judging how well the trees would perform for their intended uses. If we want a tree that will not flex and is rigid and has no life to it then we are not considering the horse IMHO. Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Hey Rawhidelady, Were you at the Rawhide braiders roundtable in OKC with Pablo and Armando and Ron that Leland and Nate and Mike hosted for the TCAA? Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Cattle and horses mostly but you can use a part of most animals hide for certain types of braiding such as buttons from the belly or cores from the rump just depends on what you are wanting to do. Also how you de hair is a factor in the quality and type of string you will get. And remember.... your neighbor may miss their cat! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

While I'd be willing to host an event and possibly even conduct it we would have to work out the logistics including cost, materials, type of projects, boarding, time spent braiding, skill level of participants. I live outside of Dallas in Greenville Tx. So my question is how serious is everyone that may be interested in this? How would you address the above logistics one by one. You can answer either on this post for others to see or in a PM if you want. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Rob, Things are looking really nice! Very Good Job! Question, is the center of the noseband the same size as the end of the noseband? I try and do that for a little better symmetry but it is a little deceptive in photos. Other than that purely personal observation Excellent work! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

The closet I can recommend besides Gail live in the San Diego area. Mehl Lawson in Bonita CA and Sharon Paulin in Pine Valley Ca. Let me know if you need more info. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Most of the items sold this year and Dale's rig went right away for $96,500! In addition to the time and effort they put in for things that may not sell think about what it is like to work for weeks on something and have it turn out "not quite" and still have to have something to show for the auction! Each piece is still voted into the sale by a rotating group of members and the piece you labored over may be rejected for the sale! And a lot of the saddles and leather work is a collaboration between leather worker and silversmith so you may also have to help another member turn out some work and you really don't want your contribution to be the pieces weak spot! And Mulefool is right at some point you have to have the time to invest in a piece that pushes you artistically a notch or two beyond what your normal clientele may be able to afford with the hopes of not only improving your talent but of making a piece of gear that is functional yet has an intrinsic value as a work of art! And hopefully you can sell it! I have decided to lock off my orders for braiding in order to make pieces using the Argentine techniques that I've spent the last couple of years learning even though there is not really a market for them here in the US. I see it as an investment in my self. from what I've seen of Darcy's work I know that he occasionally challenges himself with a saddle that is a bit "outside the box" The things we make are increasingly become a "luxury" item and not so much of the necessity of the previous centuries so in a way it makes sense to stretch our abilities because the time in history that we are in allows us to more so than any previous time. We kinda owe it to ourselves! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Dang, I guess I should keep up with things! Thanks everyone. This forum has been invaluable to me and I have learned much more from the folks on here than I have shared so thanks to each of you for that. Rob, I just spent a few days at Nate's but we got to ride out and check for calves each morning as the sun rose and then braid all the rest of the day! What a life! The TCAA is an excellent group of craftsmen and they are very generous with their knowledge and skill and I am fortunate to know the folks that I have met through the organization. I encourage each of you that are serious about learning and improving to inquire about the programs the TCAA offers. I just got back from their 10th annual exhibit and auction and the gear was spectacular this year and they really out did themselves. Dale Harwood and Nate Wald collaborated on a "Vaquero" package that included a saddle with 20" tapaderos, a bridle with a spade bit (the fifth bit Dale has ever made!), a reata, bosal, slit braid hobbles and romal reins and a 25 yr old mecate and the whole package SOLD for $96,500 ! Someone is very happy! I was gonna bid $96.499 and can you believe someone out bid me?! Oh Well maybe next year! Vaya Con Dios, Alan

Crow, My friend you have it just right in the first pic. There is no way to tie a knot that will fill those different sizes perfectly. What you do now is to increase the interweave on the larger part to over three under three. This you do in the same manner as the increase to over 2 under 2. If you are unsure how many to go under when you start back down the other direction you can look ahead at where the pattern of your "V" will be and cross under till you come out in the right place. Adding the 3rd interweave will tighten everything up quite a bit (even the smaller diameter) and by the final pass you will barely be able to fit the lace in the space left but that is how you end up with a nice, smooth and tight covering. It should turn out quite nicely if you do this. Looks good so far! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Crow, the simple answer to your question is that to make a knot longer (not more bights or interweaves) you will take more wraps around the core. For instance you are use to going around the core and coming back and crossing over your standing end. Well the next level would have you go around your core twice cross over in the back and then up and cross over your standing end. What ever you do on the front you do on the back and now you have two halves to the front and two halves to the back so you cross over on the back-you cross over on the front. You go o1 (bottom half) and o1 (top half actually the previous pass) on the front and repeat this on the back, then you go u1, o1 on the bottom and you go u1,o1 on the top of the front and repeat the sequence on the back. Each pass you will increase by 1 top and bottom. By the third pass you will be making a pair of parallel passes that the fourth pass will split and this repeats for every 2 passes thereafter so you can finish with either a 4 bight, six bight, eight bight etc.. The closer your foundation gets to completely covering your core without interweaves the closer each set of parallel passes get to each other. You are covering from lets say left to right bottom to top on the front and from right to left top to bottom on the back and obviously this front will eventually meet the back in this fashion. This is the easiest way I can explain it in words with out using pictures. Hope this helps. If you can visualize what I have written it will help you not get lost no matter what you are building. Try it with the six bight knot you are use to and look at it in this way as building up in overs and unders with each pass and building from the top to bottom and left to right and front to back. If you can see all this as you progress then all the knots become easier to learn. Hope this helps some. For a longer knot you could take one more wrap and build things up from there or any number of wraps for any length of knot but it will take a longer and longer string so for a nose band of 7+" we will use the multiple string method. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

I thought this might also be the case but am not able to check it out. There are so many different knots and ways of doing them and such that it is hard to keep them all straight in your head. I was trying to tie one that is one less turn in the foundation than your and I have tied it countless times but I started over twice before I finally looked it up in a book to see where I was messing up! Plus, it is easier to see what is going on when you are the one that just tied the knot other than looking at the pic of a knot from someone else. At any rate I think you will get it figured out and having been through this will help you understand HOW knots are built up from one level to the next. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

I'm in the middle of a set of romal reins and a bosal so I don't have time to do it either but if you think about it the answer is easy. I told you it looks like you are basically one row over from where you need to be. You are coming out at the bottom of the start and you should be at the top of the start so..... at the top when you do the first cross if you went under 4 that would move you over to the next row so you will end up at the top of the start. Actually I think on the first one it is an under 3 just like the previous pass and then the next time is under 4 with the 4th string being the string from the 1st pass of THIS interweave! Again sorry I don't have time to braid one that size up too show you but I think you can follow the logic. You are always building things UP and there is never a pass where things are less than before because you have added a string. They are at least the same as the previous pass or greater. So your U2 cross can not be right. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Hey Mike, if you look at your second pic there is a pair that should have been split. Also, It is hard to tell but it looks like a 6 bight knot with an X=4 so basically you should have 24 rows of lines going up counting the "v" or at least the up leg of the "v" from bottom to top. When you go to the first interweave you are making an O2 U2 pattern and the ends are U3. The next level of interweave should be O3 U3 with the ends being U4 regardless of wether you are going all the way from top to bottom. The section you are "building" should be built in the same manner with the same formula of adding 1 to the pattern and 1 to the cross for each level of interweave. Make sure you are splitting pairs when you come to them. Seeing as this does not appear to be the first time you've come down the rows then you've made an error somewhere between the first and second pass. Make sure you are going up and down the same number so if you go O U O going up you should go O U O going down (this is leaving out the crosses at each end) and not O U O U O or some variation that adds one more row to the equation. From what I can tell you are basically one pass to the right of where you should be and you shoul be going down the row 3 strings to the right shich would put you coming to the pair that the start makes at the top of the pair. It also looks like you are too lose at the top and your interweaves are too far down the sides of the knot to fill in the gap at the top. This happens to me a lot. I REPEAT "A LOT" so don't feel too bad. just keep trying to feed those interweaves up higher realizing that you can braid the knot a little loose if you know that your next 3 interweaves are going to tighten everything up once they go on. Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Hey Crow, I start by getting the strings in 3rds and then I line them up with 2/3rds of the length going to my left and 1/3rd to my right. I have them all lined out in rows from top to bottom. In this case I had 8 strands and I take the top on and take the left end and weave it under one over one down through the others. Then I repeat with all the strands until the last strand goes back around the bosal and weaves through the first strand, under one over one. This is what I have done in the first three pictures of me putting the noseband braid on. I'm not sure if I can explain it any better but if you still don't follow I will try. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

WOW a lucky braided headstall!! Nice work! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell