Alan Bell

Hey Linda, I guess I could braid something up showing the other 6 plait or I could just tell you that it is under two over one, and it is called a 'half round'. I've never found a reason to braid it but in Robert Woolery's book he claims it can be used to braid up a reata or lasso rope. When I met Ron here in the states he said you Aussies don't use a rawhide rope much and he explained how they dehair one if they make it by basically breaiding it up hair on and then tying it to the bumper of a truck and dragging it around the station (ranch) until it dehairs and softens! He also did some quick sketches for those of us in the class and he IS an exceptional artist. I use the under, over 6 plait for hobbles and fancy reatas but that is about all that is really practical to braid. I bet that the 'half round might make a nice bracelet or wrist band though. Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell [Don't worry about a thing cuz every little thing is gon' be alright] Bob Marley

Robert Woolery mentions that braid in his book on Cowboy Horse Tack. It is one of 3 ways to do a 6 strand round braid. If you are in Australia you should inquire about Ron Edwards. He has written more books on braiding than anyone else on planet Earth! Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell [One Good Thing About Music.... When it hits you, you feel no pain] Robert Nesta Marley

I added my votes but my situation doesn't really fit the answers I gave perhaps there should be a "more than" for each item. I drive a semi truck over the road for a living. I raise and train Spanish Barbs and that lead me to rawhide braiding. Basically, I have been braiding rawhide for about 10 yrs or so. Mostly self taught but I did get a scholarship from the Traditional Cowboy Arts Association to study braiding with Nate Wald. The braiding lead me to leather work and in that brief time when Tandy closed their stores ( they were bought by The Leather Factory) I bought one of each stamp for about 30% of regular cost. That lead me to saddle making. I did my first one mostly by myself but had a couple of folks to question it was pretty rough going but I am still riding that saddle! I prefer Wades which makes things difficult here in Texas but I did get another TCAA scholarship that I used to attend the Saddle making Seminar by Dale Harwood and Steve Mecum at the Cowboy Museum in OKC. To date I have built 4 saddles. I like being able to ride a horse I raised and trained sitting on a saddle I made and using a bosal I braided! Apart from family life seldom gets much better!

Thanks a lot Rod, that is just the info I was looking to hear! The 5 days or so in the lime and then the 3 more days neutralizing in the vinegar rinse was really too much time to spend making rawhide when you consider it still had to be cut into strips, the strips skived even, then cut into strings and the strings need both edges beveled! Whew, I get tired out just typing the description! Braiders end up making about $.50/hour when all is said and done! You probably gave me a dollar raise! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell [Don't worry 'bout a thing, Cuz every little thing is gon' be alright] Bob Marley

Thanks for the reply Rod. I think Dale had mentioned sodium sulfide too but I couldn't remember what exactly he had said. Are you using one of those Home Depot type cement mixers? Can you fit a whole hide from a mature bull in those things or am I reading you right and it is a side at a time? Nate Wald uses one of those old industrial size washing machines. I'm doing everything in 50 gal. plastic barrels and elbow grease to agitate. Also, I have been using vinegar to neutralize the lime. Does the soap take the place of the vinegar? I use bulls and mature cows for reatas and some heavy bosals or maybe even hobbles. I know the books talk about old skinny cows but not many braiders get the oppurtunity to have an old skinny cow to hide we all end up with what ever get down at the neighbors or a calf or 2. Most of the time I go to the rendering plant and pick one out and let them skin it! Saves me a lot of time. Seems like I never get enough calf hides but last year I actually got two horses to skin out that had died at neighbors. Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell [Why not help one another on the way?, Makes it much easier] Bob Marley

OK I have been curing my own rawhide for a couple of years and have been using the lime bath method. I know there are more than one ways to skin a cat (pun intended). What method do saddle tree makers use and do you think the rawhide is of a good quality for braiding? Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell [if you get down and you quarrel everyday, you're sayin' prayers to the devil I say] Bob Marley

Hey Jane, Glad to have you here, too. I just returned from getting a new stud and a couple of mares from Roeliff and we had a little discussion of saddle fit in regards to our Spanish Mustangs and Wade saddle trees. On your saddle and tree it looks from the picture that the top edge of the bar is above the horses back which suggest that the full width of the bar is not in contact with the horses back. Roeliff had a Steve Mecum saddle built on a Ray Hunt tree and the bars are actually wider and the gullet width narrower and we compared this to another Mark Byrum Wade built on a Warren Wright tree by placing both saddles on a Spanish Mustang, a Lusitano and a Quarter Horse without a pad and having Roeliff mount without having the girth tightened. While the saddles all fit each horse's back they fit each horse differently. Roeliff was able to mount them fairly easily with little movement and little stress to the horses withers because the saddles all 'fit' even if they fit differently for each horse, Roeliff's weight was evenly distributed while mounting. I also noticed that the rear girth is pulled forward towards the front girth, is this by design or did it slide there because of movement? I believe that Dave's is trying to move the rider as far forward as possible to maintain the position over the horses center of balance so he has a fair amount of flair to the bars to not interfere with the shoulder movement but it appears dangerously close to applying too much pressure at the point where contact with the horses back ends and the bars flare away. This would become evident if the horse doesn't stand still for mounting. It would also be nice to see where you end up sitting when you are mounted. I wish I had taken more pictures when we were farting around up there! Say hello to the folks up there and hope to see you while the weather is nice!

Thanks for the info on tree makers. I have gotten trees from Warren through Karin Harwood I was hoping to find someone in the US that I could maybe call if I had special request or the like. I like Warrens trees and I know that in the last 20 + yrs Dale has only built one saddle on a tree he did not make and it was a Warren Wright tree at the Seminar Greg and I attended. He had to modify his patterns very little. I will try and find someone in the fall when I caught up and maybe if Rod isn't to swamped I get a chance to use his tree! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Hey Greg, I met you at the seminar with Dale and Steve in OKC. I would love to see how Mr Genadek's saddle trees compare to the Wade trees that are being made in the Great Basin. As you may recall finding a good tree maker was a big concern for me. It is nearly impossible to find a true Wade tree made east of the Rockies! Most are "Wade style" trees at best. I have found that a lot of the issues Mr. Genadek is speaking of are solved in the Wade trees of the Great Basin including bar width which is one of the main changes Dale made to the Wade at the suggestion of Ray Hunt! I don't think Ray used 3D imaging to come to this point he has just saddled and ridden literally thousands of horses! The Wade saddles I rode made by Great Basin makers on Great basin trees ARE different than what I can find in Texas and further East unless they were shipped from somewhere West of the Rockies (Wyoming is kinda a cutoff point east of the Rockies) I am not a "saddlemaker" but I have made saddles. I am not a Buckaroo but I ride a Wade and rope with a 60' rope and train Bosal a Freno here in the Heart of Texas! I like to be able to say I am riding a horse I raised and trained using a bosal I braided and roping with a reata I braided and sitting a saddle I made. My main issue is that Mr Genadek seems (in my view) to talk down to the others in this forum even when he makes an effort to not do this. Just my point of view. He may be the humblest man God ever put in front of a piece of leather I am just speaking of his post here. I would however like to inquire one thing of him if I may. I read his post saying he is a "Master" Saddle maker and has been considered a "Master" leather carver since his teens. Who bestowed these titles on you and What are their credentials in bestowing these titles? As a martial artist I am wary of folks that claim to be "Masters" (this has nothing to do with my being an American of African descent) In college everyone said I played drums BETTER than the guy that had his "Masters" in percussion because I played Jazz with more feel so since then I have always questioned what and why someone is considered a "Master". A high school drop out once explained music degrees like this "The first person to give out a Degree didn't have one; he was just good at what he did!" Made sense for music; makes sense for leather work! Not trying to offend and I would love to have another source for good quality Wade trees so hopefully David's trees will be just what I have been looking for! Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Hey folks, Bruce Johnson and I seem to be having a closed conversation on the rigging posts! I think that these two post are virtually one and the same check out what we've written so far and see what you think. Alan Bell

Hey Bruce, I'm really enjoying this!! I think the old Visalia builders probably did know about Jineta vs la brida as they were Californios and especially back then saying a person was 'muy jineta' meant not only that he rode well but was kinda gutsy. Used mostly in S. America but still used. What I would like to see is the saddles of the N. African Moors that invented this style of riding. I do know that the Ethiopians used a toe stirrup and only your big toe was in the stirrup. I imagine this made it easy to keep your heels down! I came aobut all this by way of raising Spanish Barb horses and all this relates back to the breed and how they have been used historically. I think the Moors made the 5 inch stirrups so this affected how they sat the horse too. I noticed on the pics you posted that the more centered seat also has more leather in front of the swell so I guess I am trying to find that medium between the leather in front of the swells (minimal) the rise of the seat (moderate) and the rigging position (placing the rider as far forward as possible with out interfering with the horses movements) Oh yeah and on a Western saddle! I guess this is why Wades are becoming more popular. As far as roping livestock they are designed to give the most consideration to all these factors. Alan Bell

While not getting into all the finer points of this discussion I will say this and I think it is part of what plays into Susans last post in the other message about fitting Spanish Mustangs. If we were to sit on the horse bareback we find ourselves sucking up behind the withers. If you bend your legs for grip you can feel the horses shoulder beneath your knees if you stretch them down to hang straight and flex your heels to obtain a deep seat your legs are about where the girth would set. On western saddles we have the swells in front of this point and the bars go even further in front of the swells. The slick fork saddles were to my knowledge designed to adress this problem and allow the rider to have a more "forward seat" more in line with where the bare back rider sits. You failed to mention properly built in skirt rigging. Now I have limited experience as a saddle maker and even as a horseman I've haven't been riding that long compared to some but I did make a study out of all that I have done involving horsemanship. From what I have gleaned a properly built inskirt rig with 3 way will just about allow the rider to adjust for the most forward position on each particular horse with minimal bulk, minimal weight, maximum weight distribution, maximum strain distribution, maximum comfort for the horse allowing for free musclo-skelatal movement as far as is possible giving that we are still trying to put a structured frame between the fluid moving back of a horse and the fluid moving hips of a human. The saddle can find its sweetspot and the rigging can be adjusted to find its sweet spot and hold the saddle in place with less bulk and it can still be made either to wrap more fully around the horses barrell by shaping the skirt kinda like a drop plate if desired. Just my pennya and a half?? Quien Sabe? I'm just a newbie still wettin' my under britches! Alan Bell

Hey Susan, I can't send a current pic of the bare tree because it is no longer a bare tree! But it is probably very similar tothe tree Rod has pictured on his home page setting on the horses back. Rod could tell if there are any differences or not. I really like the colt and I really liked his sire. I rode Thunder when Roeliff still had him and liked him then. I think Roeliff has a full brother to Thunder that he is going to geld. I couldn't use him as a stud because he is to closely elated to my Medicine Hats. So I'm getting this colt whose complete pedigree I don't know but he is by Tarkio. I'm also getting some bred mares that are heavy in foal to Tarkio so I'll be back in the breeding game soon!

Howdy Folks, I had been posting on the braiding board and had left this discussion only to find out it has indeed grown quite interesting. I too raise and train SM's and know most of the folks involved in this discussion and their horses and am quite familiar with some of these issues. I also know a fellow that has several saddles built of Warren's trees and I have built on Warren's trees and had not had these issues with my horses nor do I think my buddy has and I will be building him a saddle with one of Warren's trees. I attended the saddlemaking seminar with Dale Harwood and Steve Mecum last year and also have visited with Chuck Stormes and Cary Schwarz a bit on these and other issues. One of my goals was to find a tree supplier to get 'REAL' Wade trees from and not have to wait so long for Warren's trees. In my quest for a tree manfacturer Rod your name was mentioned. From the pic on your home page, Rod, that is pretty much what Warren's trees looke like sitting on my SM's back! Oddly enough I had a 3 yr old QH stud at the time and placed the bare tree on his back and Lo and Behold it set in a slightly different spot but still fit him! Maybe a little further back as I recall because of the angle of his withers front to back. I should have taken pics! I guess i'm in effect lending a little credence to what Dusty Johnson said regarding horsemanship. I built a saddle for another SM owner on Warren's tree and he is also involved in Throughbreds so I know that the same saddle goes from one to the other and he also has little trouble with fit he just rides what is beneath him and he has no legs. I believe it is akin to your spoon discription and the saddle finds it's spot and the rider adjust to ride the horse NOT the saddle. In my discussion with Dale he basically builds 2 different trees; one for Ray and one for the rest that can afford one and the tree for Ray has only slight differences to the width of the bar and where the swells attach or gullet width. At least that is what he was willing to share with us at that time! Quien Sabe? I videoed the entire seminar and will review the info presented and try and post bits of it here when I have the time. Alan Bell

Hey Jim, As you can see there is no way around that imagine you did the stitch on a straight line then bent it. You would in affect be making the outside of the bend longer and thus spreading your lace and the inside shorter and tightening your lace. Just working off the top of my head I might experiment with either adding 4 more holes (or a multiple there of if that is your pattern) to the outside arc and running through the holes on the inside an extra time to make it all come out in the same place when it runs straight OR I might try making the distance from hole to hole slightly LESS than the width of my lace. This would make each pass overlap and appear extremely tight but on the curve it may look just right OR try to figure the spacing on the outside curve to fit each hole the width of the string or less and then adjust the spacing on the inside as tight as possible and then even it out on the straightways. Just trying to think "outside the box" and have know idea if any of these things will work!

I just started on this board so I was reviewing to see if there was something I could learn or could help on and noticed noone had responded to this post so here goes my penny and a half!; I use some form of latigo to do the slit braid. Weaver sells a bleeder knife that i recommend if you are going to do a lot but then I have done quite a few with a sharp knife and then used closed scissors to spread the slit open. I prefer to soak the latigo in water until saturated then use a towel to draw off the excess moisture and this also draws off a lot of the extra dye. Al Stohlman has made a "finessing" tool which is basically a piece of skirting leather with a hole punched in it. The lace is drawn throuh the hole to "round" the edges, it rolls the edges towards the flesh side and smooths them up (you may or maynot want to skive the flesh side edge of the length of the string) Oh yeah when using either a knife or the slit braid bleeder it is best to hold the knife with the point stabbing the lace and lift the lace to slide it onto the knife point as opposed to slicing the lace with the knife. Easier to control and less chance of cutting through to the outside of the lace and ruining your string. To finish simply pound the lace with a flat face hammer or you can use one of those lace rollers from Tandy (never tried one). Anyway hopes this helps! Alan Bell

Thanks folks, I'm just happy to be here! Alan Bell

Figured I might as well post pics of some of my gear as well.

I don't know a whole lot about formula's and logrithims, just a simple cowpoke from Texas. If you are doing a braid like a 12 strand flat you can also do two passes per side. If you have 7 strands in your left and 5 on the right you can start on the left and go under 2 and over, under over then again from the left go over 2, under 2, over 2, then do the same thing from the right to the left and repeat the pattern ad infinum. This style is the national braid of Argentina the 'Trenza Patria' and it has several variations. You could also divide a nine strand flat into 6 and 3 and do 3 passes per side so that basically you are shifting the larger side back and forth like a pendulum. That is how I look at it. I find it easier to visualize that memorize and I look at groups instead of individuals so I wold look at how we are building groups for any braid or knot. Don't know if that helps any but it is how I have managed to get things done. Alan Bell

Hey Matthew, a general rule is that you need the length plus one half the length so for 20" you would need strands 30" long. If your core tapers you could maybe use less but if you are a beginner you might add a bit to the lengths. By the way, why a six plait? An eight plait makes a nicer looking braid and is not that much harder to do. The six plait will end up an over one under one in order to be easy. The other patterns are a little harder to do at first and do a nice looking job. . Anyway's I hope this helps and good luck. Alan Bell

Just wanted to introduce myself, I'm a braider in Texas mostly rawhide and some leather. I make mostly cowboy gear like bosals, hobbles and reins and such.