D.A. Kabatoff

Hi, I was hoping to get some opinions on the connecting strap that runs between the front and rear rigging dees that are pictured on this saddle ii'm finishing up. About 95% of the saddles that I've made in the past have had flat plate riggings or been single rigged. Of the few saddles that i've used this style of rigging, I have always used a connecting strap between the front and rear rigging dees... mostly because that is how the style of rigging was shown to me. The questions I have about the connecting strap are: do you always use a connecting strap with this style of rigging, what is the real purpose behind it, and what ill effects have you seen when the connecting strap isn't present. The reason this saddle gave me pause is because it's intended purpose will be in the reining arena and I'm wondering if there may be a slight advantage to leaving it off. thanks, Darc

Hey Brent, I had to send a saddle to England last year and when I checked all the rates I found calling an airline to be the cheapest method. The only problem with this is that you have to drop the saddle off at the airport and the customer has to pick it up at their airport. D.

Hi Blake, I hope you don't mind but I posted all the photos I have of the only one of your saddles that I've seen on Ebay. Nice clean work that I thought others might want to see. Is this the saddle you were thinking of? Darc

Hi Blake, I'm sorry but I don't have item numbers with the photos I've saved from Ebay. If you can give me a description of the saddle you are thinking of and possibly the maker, I could check and see if I have the photos. Darc

Hi Steve, great idea for a topic.... I have been following saddles on Ebay for about six years now and have been saving the photos of every decent rig i've seen on there to my computer. I now have about 500 photos of saddles ranging from the most obscure old makers to some of the best modern makers; They make for great reference material. Here's an item number for a nice looking Meanea saddle: 360004046450 Capriola saddle: 140190748724 I've posted a photo of an interesting saddle that was on Ebay last year. It's an old Frazier saddle that the seller claimed had been bought new and sat in the attic it's whole life, never been on a horse. Darc

Hi Ryan, thanks for posting the mailing address. The photo you posted is inspirational in a few different ways. For myself, never having met Forrest or even previously seen his work that photo seems to speak volumes about who he is and what he has contributed to saddlemaking. I sincerely hope he pulls through for his and his family's sake, for you as his friend and his student, and for all of us who he inspires. Darc

Hi Figthnbullrider, there was someone asking the same question in the "Members Gallery" section of the forum... you might want to check out the replies there. Darc

Hi BevJones, starting out in saddlemaking is certainly a large endeavour. As was mentioned before, building your first saddle with someone who is experienced would be the best way to learn. Understanding what you are trying to achieve before starting a saddle is very important. If you follow a video and mimic what is being shown without any real understanding as to why things are done a certain way and what the end result of a process is meant to achieve, you really aren't learning all the skills you need. Working with an experienced saddlemaker would give you a better chance of learning what makes a good saddle a good saddle. Recently I was getting some help with ground seats from one of the finest saddlemakers around and he told me over the phone that before starting the ground work I needed to have a clear picture of the final seat shape I was trying make. After I hung up and thought about this, I was sure that on previous saddles I had built, an image of the final shape I wanted was in my head before I started. It wasn't until I was in his shop watching him put in a groundseat that I realized I really didn't have the clear picture in my head that I thought I did. This thought process extends to every part of making a saddle; Being able to ask questions really clarifies a task and can make the whole learning curve much easier. If it is absolutely impossible for you to spend time with a reputable maker, I'd suggest at least having a clear understanding of the mechanics of a saddle before trying to build one. By mechanics I mean what makes a good saddle perform correctly as far as fit for the horse (trees), comfort for the rider (seat shape), and safety and security for both the horse and rider (rigging). If you don't understand these aspects of a saddle, you can mimic a video all you want and still not produce a useful saddle. Darc

Hi Bruce, thanks for the insight, very interesting and accurate. I understand where you are coming from because I come from a similar situation... my original goal was not to become a saddlemaker... just make myself a saddle and maybe a couple more. Things changed somwhere along the line and I realized I enjoyed saddlemaking and wanted to improve. Everyone has their own goal where saddlemaking is concerned and as you say time will tell who stays and who goes and for what reasons. I find coventional wisdom interesting because I think there are generation gaps involved. My grandfather's generation was one that accepted coventional wisdom with either blind faith or a smack to the back of the head and which ever it was, they ended up learning the way things were done. I think I'm part of a generation of people who don't act on blind faith and tend to question conventional wisdom... trying to find out for myself the best way to do something may encompass trying several methods (including the best way) before I decide how I will do something. This said, there is still some of the old generation in me which probably comes from a kick in the ass when I screwed up... I have a blind respect for previous generations and what they accomplished and I tend to listen when they talk. I have visited a number of really good saddlemakers over the years whose opinions I highly respect but it wasn't until the last couple of years that I had the opportunity to watch some of the absolute best saddlemakers in North America work. Seeing how they use their tools efficiently, effortlessly, and produce the finest work possible really takes away any lingering doubt about their being a better way to do something or a better tool for the job. It makes you realize your own shortcomings and that perhaps we are a little too quick to look for an easier way or an easier tool instead of putting in our time and learning the conventional wisdom. Perhaps this doesn't apply in the same way to someone who only wants to make one or two saddles, but on the other hand, why would someone who is highly skilled in saddlemaking want to share their knowledge with somebody who's not serious about the craft? As an example, I used to hate skiving leather when I started and tried every tool imaginable to make it easier. When I skived a leather seat strainer for a ground seat, I'd get out my potatoe peeler and a half hour later I'd have shavings covering half my bench, the floor, the hall and every nook and cranny of my shop...seemed easier and I wondered why the heck anyone would use a round knife. It wasn't until a number of years later that I gave thought to my logic when I saw someone who was highly skilled with a roundknife do the same job in under ten minutes with only a handful of shavings. It was enough for me to put away the potatoe peeler and learn to use a round knife properly... this included learning how to sharpen and maintain the knife. It's now a number of years later and I find it highly amusing when I see someone else trying to find a better way to skive leather My point to all this rambling is that when I went to visit a saddlemaker to try and learn something, I didn't have the audacity to suggest to them that a potato peeler was a better way to skive leather or a pizza cutter was a better way to cut their hides. I sat there with my mouth shut and listened. It was probably the old-school parenting that guided my correct assesment that highly skilled people don't need or want some green behind the ears wannabe trying to show them a better way to do something. I think I am still open to new ideas, it's how they are presented that determines whether or not I give them my consideration. Darc hope we aren't hijacking your thread Denise, this stuff seems to fit in with what you are asking.

Denise, I recently was visiting a saddlemaker who has been in the business alot of years and apprenticed with a couple of the old saddleries while they were still operating. We talked about the topic of saddlemakers sharing information freely nowdays and how that compared to the way it used to be. One of the primary reasons saddlemakers were so secretive about their skills is because of the dog eat dog environment they existed in. In the early days especially during the depression when jobs were scarce, a saddlemaker maintained his job and was able to feed his family by protecting his skills from others competing for his job. This saddlemaker I was visiting mentioned that large saddleries would often have one large water bin for wetting leather and if a saddlemaker at one end of the bench had to wet leather, every other saddlemaker would stop what they were doing and cover their work till the person had wet their leather and returned to their station. I imagine that saddlemaking isn't the only trade that people needed to hide their knowledge and skills to survive. Nowdays, a good saddlemaker can do fairly well in this business if the quality of their work is good. As they gain experience and their work becomes more refined, they are selling much more than a good saddle... they are selling their name and reputation. When your skills are such that people want to buy your reputation, you are no longer competing with other saddlemakers for your customers and it becomes easier to share some of your knowledge when you have a year or more of orders in the books. In one of your previous threads about what to charge a potential student, someone made the comment about sharing your skills with a student who in turn undercuts you in the market. I'm sure you and Rod realize as much as any good treemaker that between the two of you, there is a maximum number of trees you can make in a year; because of the quality of your trees and your reputation, this puts you in the unique position of not being able to meet the demand of everyone who wants one of your trees. Your customers are willing to wait for one of your trees for as long as you tell them they have to wait because of the quality of of your work and in the case of new customers, because of your reputation. . I personally don't think someone new to treemaking would affect your business at all even if their prices were half of what you charge. This is not to say you shouldn't charge someone for your time and knowledge if you were to train them in the whole process, but if someone who had been building trees for a number a years and already had a grasp on the fundamentals came to you to ask about a specific cantle pattern or wanting to learn a new way of shaping wood, you might view this differently than the person with no skills who wants everything from you. The same is true in saddlemaking. As far as having to "prove yourself", I think this exists but it might not be as blunt as it sounds. I remember the first few saddles I made, I took to a number of good saddlemakers for critiquing and hoped to learn a few tricks of the trade. Most of these saddlemakers were gracious enough to give me their comments on my work, but beyond that I really wasn't learning any actual skills. I don't think this was because they were being secretive with their skills, it has more to do with not knowing who someone is and what they are trying to accomplish. Over the years I met these same saddlemakers at shows or in different places and as my own work improved and these saddlemakers started to recognize me, they were much more willing to share different ways of doing things with me. I remember reading that when Dale Harwood was just starting out he would go to saddleshops and engage different saddlemakers in conversation about fishing and hunting and then try and bring the conversation around to saddlemaking whereby he could learn something. In the end he had learned everything there was to learn about fishing and hunting, and a little bit about saddlemaking. Perhaps this is the modern equivalent of an apprenticeship. I think there is value in "the old cowboy way" of learning; it's an effective way of bringing people into the trade. Because learning the correct skills is so drawn out, it helps moderate the number of good saddlemakers in the industry. Instead of college type courses putting out 100 new saddlemakers each year, you might have twenty new people trying to learn how to make saddles... mainly because the other 80 couldn't find anyone to teach them how to get started. Of the twenty who try and learn, there might be a handfull who have some talent and enough perseverance to perfect the skills needed to make a living. This maintains a market where good saddlemakers can flourish without the worry of hundreds of new guys trying to undercut them. just my two cents worth.... Darc just read Bruce's post and mention of questioning conventional wisdom. In the last couple of years I have had a few people come visit me trying to learn a little about saddlemaking. Although I am not an old timer or completely stuck in my ways, I find it irritating as hell when someone with little or no experience comes to me and starts suggesting I use a drill to sew my cantle bindings or some sort of new factory tree. I can't imagine some of the crap the older, more experienced saddlemakers have listened to over the years... would certainly turn you off sharing your skills.

Tonyc1 About seven or eight years ago I was looking for a splitter and couldn't find an old one in decent shape... I wound up buying one of the newer Osborne splitters from Seigels of California. I was quite disappointed with it and had a heck of a time splitting anything with it. I was trying to split some rawhide string with it and that's when I really had enough of the thing. The blade on it was made of pretty good steel but the grind was completely useless. I took it to a professional sharpening outfit and told them to put a hollow grind on the blade that bevelled up about 3/4" to 1" from the edge. This splitter now splits leather and rawhide better than anything I have ever used and all I have to do is polish the blade from time to time on my bench grinder (green rouge on a muslin cloth wheel). I am convinced that any modern splitter that is mechanically sound and square (blade is even and square to the roller) and has decent steel for the blade, can be made to split effectively with a hollow grind. Darc

Hi Andy, thanks for the words.... hopefully they are looking a little better than the first few I brought by for you to look at a few years back. I'm sure you've probably heard already, but if not, they are adding a juried saddle show to the Kamloops Cowboy Festival for next year with Chuck Stormes as the judge... think you might try and submit something for it? I still remember the fully carved saddle you had at the show in Edmonton a number of years back... quite stunning. Hopefully they can turn this show into something like they had going in Edmonton. I ran into Scott in Chilliwack at the Mane Event... he had a few saddles there on display and it looks like he's doing really nice work (not a big suprise really). He was saying he might try and get something together for the show as well. We probably aren't going to get out your way until the show so we'll either see you up there or we'll stop in on the way if you aren't planning on going. Darc ps. your website has been quite helpful for a saddle I'm finishing up. It's a wade style tree for a fellow who will be using it primarily for reining. I haven't used big D type rigging up front for quite a number of years, so seeing how you cut your seats has been quite helpful. I've been trying to set the rigging back a bit from full position without interfering with the stirrup leather/fender movement... been a bit of a challenge but Greg Gomersall gave me a few good ideas to try.

Steve, I was out visiting Chuck.. trying to streamline a few process' and learn some new ways of doing things... it was an excellent trip! If I make it out that way again I'll be sure to give you a call. As for the carving, I know what you mean... I recently carved a gullet cover which is the first carving I've done in about a month... I can't bring myself to glue it down and I still have to carve the rest of the saddle. I know when I haven't carved for a while my work suffers in three areas in particular; the swivel knife work, the bevelling, and the backgrounding. Probably in a few other areas as well, but those are the areas that really stand out to me. Beaverslayer, the show is the Kamloops Cowboy Festival which is probably the largest show of it's kind in Canada. They've had a trade show for quite a number of years which has gone the way of most trade shows attached to poetry gathering; more crafts and tourist type trinkets than horse gear. Last year they add a sponsored western art show which was set up like a gallery but they only allowed flat work (paintings and such) to be displayed. This year they've added saddles to the show and are making it a juried show meaning examples of your work have to be submitted to a panel of judges who will deem whether or not it is good enough to be in the show. They are only allowing six entrants to display work so hopefully they will end up with some fine saddles on display. Chuck Stormes will be the final judge of the show (I forgot to try and grease his palms while I was out that way) and there will be a few prizes awarded. I'm hoping some good saddlemakers make an effort to submit work so the show has a chance to survive... Canada doesn't really have any gear shows of this kind, so it'd be nice to see it work out. Info about the show can be found at: http://www.bcchs.com/art.html Darc

Hey Steve, smooth work with some nice carving... did you pattern those after Chuck's? I didn't realize you were in High River or I would have given you a call... I just spent two nights at the Heritage Inn there about a week ago. Was visiting Millarville for three days and wound up having dinner with Glenn and Jan in Claresholm. Darc ps. are you going to try and get a saddle in the show in Kamloops next March?

Hidemechanic, I usually don't do any kind of hidden stitch on the back of my bindings but thought I'd give it a try on that saddle. The leather was split in the thickness and the edge rolled up for sewing. Not really sure what people call that method, but that's how I did it. Darc

Cyrus, I agree with Greg on this issue and sure hate to hear people quote that test... especially when the people conducting it didn't know how to hand sew properly. There is an important aspect that was overlooked in the test and that is the compression of the leather by an awl. As Greg mentioned, first the awl has to be used on the correct angle so that the point to point from hole to hole causes the stitch to pull on an angle. When an awl makes a hole it doesn't remove the material but instead compresses it making it more dense and harder. A drill bit has the opposite affect by removing material, leaving a hole with broken fibers around it's circumference; The leather will definitly be weaker. I have attached two photos of a good size to give you a close up of what handstitching should look like. You should be able to see that the holes made by the awl were made on an angle and that the stitches do no pull in a straight line. Instead they are pulling towards one side of the diamond shaped hole made and pulling on firm, compressed leather. As Greg mentioned, people can do whatever they want with their goods, but it is simply incorrect to say that drilling holes is stronger than traditonal handsewing. Incidentally, do you have any pictures of handsewing done with a drill that was sewn with white thread? I'd be curious to see it next to the photos I have posted to compare the tightness of the thread through the hole. The reason this is important is that when you remove leather with a drill and create a hole that is slightly bigger than the thread, dirt will build up in that hole and the grit will wear on the thread. By using an awl, the memory of the leather will cause the leather to expand slightly after the awl is removed. This means the hole will tighten up even more around the thread which is obviously impossible when you remove leather with a drill. Darc

Thought I'd add my two cents worth... I agree with Jordan about the idea of keeping knowledge alive. As saddlemaking goes, I am not at the point of feeling like I am qualified to teach someone how to make a complete saddle. When I do reach that point, I think the most important aspect to me will be about being able to trust someone with the knowledge and skills you show them. I'd sure hate to teach some "young buck" the finer points of saddlemaking only to see them not really put their heart and soul into what they are doing, turning out second rate work and telling people they learned saddlemaking from me. In this respect, knowing the student and their intent would be more important to me than anything. While getting paid for my time would certainly be a consideration, I tend to remember the days of eating popcorn for the last few days of the month while waiting for my next paycheck. During those lean years there were a number of people who helped me and I'd like to think if someone in a similar situation approached me with a strong desire to learn and carry on the traditions of skilled craftsmanship, I'd be reasonable in my efforts to help them. I suppose it just adds a couple more considerations on what and how to charge them for your time. Darc

Hi Steve, I place mine like photos A or B. I know some people have their reasons for having the top edge of the skirts on the spine of the sheepskin, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe it makes a difference. I always run mine with the front of the skirts towards the front of the sheep, but again, I'm not sure it makes a difference as long as both skirts are running in the same direction. I haven't had any problems with my skirts this way so I see no reason to try anything else. One thing I do like is for the most visible edges of the skirts to have consistent thickness to the wool, simply for appearance sake; I usually get this with the bottom edges of the skirts toward the spine. Darc

Hey Greg, Absolutely stunning saddle. Nice balance of floral and geometric. Really like the rawhide buckstitching on the fork very subtle. When are you going to sell me that four heart Don King border stamp... I got a nice 3 heart one I might consider trading you for...I think it's probably more valuable than yours so I might need something extra with the deal. Just joshin... thanks again for the stamp... probably going to use it on my current project. Darc

anyone looking for a stitching pony might want to check out this Ebay auction... http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-SHAKER-WOOD-TO...1QQcmdZViewItem Darc

A friend recently emailed me a link to this website... thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion. This organization which is led by some well known people in the saddlemaking business is offering a certification to interested applicants who meet their criteria. I've always had an aversion to the term "Master Saddlemaker"... I've always felt it was used either for self promotion or by people to improperly describe someone who gives a damn about what they are doing. Another reason the term doesn't appeal to me is that Western saddlemaking isn't like English saddlemaking where there are still long apprenticeships and actual certifications that deem who is a master and who isn't. Some of their certification skills require the use of traditional methods and tools... if the end result is achieved through different methods, does this mean they are not "masters of the trade"? From reading posts on this forum and talking to other saddlemakers who turn out fine saddles, it's evident that many people find different tools and methods to achieve the desired end result... how do we decide if this excludes or includes them from a title? Alot of us learned a little from others and alot from trial and error... I'm not sure I need a title or someone to tell me that I know what the heck I'm talking about. Many customers find me by word of mouth and are increasingly educated when it comes to recognizing quality; A title or lack of title won't change this. Perhaps it limits who my customers are a little, but I'm not sure I want to deal with people who get caught up in titles. It seems this organization is trying to make saddlemakers legit which is probably a good thing for the industry as a whole... I'm just not sure it's right for me. Here is the link: http://saddlemakers.org/id107.htm Darc

Nice work Elwood, looks like a good seat shape and smooth work. Darc

Hi Don, that is some really nice clean work you did. Your floral carving is beautiful and really stands out, but my eye tends to wander to all those little areas like ear cuts and fork covers, etc... that show the maker's talent. Good job! Wish more people would post photos of saddles they are making. Darc

Hi Don, I use Hermann Oak leather in all my saddles. When I order it from the tannery, I always specify that the flesh side be "buffed"; it costs a little extra, but saves me having to sand the fuzz, a job I really hate. On areas that are skived, like the lip of the fork cover, I take a piece of sandpaper and try to blend it in with the unskived areas. After you oil the saddle you can hardly notice it was ever skived. Darc

Thought I'd post a few photos of a roughout saddle I just finished for anyone who prefers them to carved saddles. This one's built on a Warren Wright tree... really like his horn and fork shape. Darc