D.A. Kabatoff

Hi Duke, guess everyone does things a bit differently... stirrups take a heck of a beating, especially for guys working around chutes, and fences and the sort. If you think Bob's explanation was hard to follow, this should give you a good laugh! I use about 13 oz leather on the outside and 10 oz on the inside of my stirrups. I like good, tight grain leather for the outsides and the best cut you can find from the belly for the insides of the stirrups. I only handsew my stirrups cause that's the way I was taught and if you see some stirrups that have been abused for a year, you'd probably want to do the same. I start by removing the stirrup bolt and spacer and make a paper pattern that runs from about an inch over the top of the stirrup to the middle of the bottom of the stirrup tread. You can use a couple spots of glue to hold the paper to the stirrup and then use a pair of calipers to trace the outside edge of the stirrup so that your paper pattern is about 1/4" wider all around then the stirrup. I do the same for the inside of the stirrup but I leave about 3/4" overhang all the way around. After I have my paper pattern I cut all four pieces (remember the pattern is only for half the stirrup). For the inside pieces I skive the whole edge down to about 6 oz and about 3/4" in from the edge. You will have to do a trial and error type fitting to get the stirrup bolt holes in the correct position on your inside leather pieces... if you measure carefully, you should be able to find the right spot. There are no holes on the outer leather pieces. If your stirrups have galvanzied metal, try to rough it up a bit with 80 grit sandpaper. Start by covering the complete outside of the stirrups with glue and apply glue to your four pieces of leather... I like to let it all sit over night and really cure, then add a second coat of glue in the morning. For the inside pieces of leather, I give them a quick dunk in a bucket of water so that they have just a bit of moisture in them... I put the second coat of glue on after I have wet these two pieces. I then carefully stick on the two inside pieces, lining up the holes you punched for the stirrup bolts. If you made your paper pattern right and you apply the leather carefully, you should have about 3/4"s overhanging the edge of the stirrup all the way around. Once the insides have been applied you can put your bolt spacer (pipe) and stirrup bolt back on and secure it... just a side note, I sometimes take the stirrup bolt nuts and hold them in a pair of pliers and grind them to half their original thickness so that they don't create as much of a lump under the leather (they will be covered by the outside piece of leather). After the bolt is back on, I take a piece of leather (6 or 7 oz) about 1 1/2"s x 1 1/2"s and skive the edges paperthin. I glue this piece over the nut of the stirrup bolt so that the nut's shape will not show through the outside piece of leather. I now carefully apply one of the out side pieces of leather so that the 1/4" overhang is even all the way around the stirrup. Press down the inside piece of leather so that it sticks to the outside... this is why I wet the inside... so it will bend down the edge of the stirrup... I then use a pair of cantle pliers and press all along the edge of the stirrup so that it is glued down as tight along the edge of the stirrup is possible (I hold a thin piece scrap leather on the perimeter of the outside leather so that the cantle pliers don't leave marks on the outside piece of leather.... This is where I fault the other method of applying the leather... If the leather is loose enough to be pulled down around the stirrup, it simply will not be as tight and as permanent a fit as doing it this way (no offence meant to anyone doing it the other method). Using the cantle pliers will pull the inside, wet, softer, belly leather down creating a 90 angle where your stitching will lay. Put the second outside piece on and you are almost ready to start handsewing... yes it will take a long time to sew these buggers but these stirrups will standup well to abuse. After all four pieces are glued down and you have pliered along the edges, you can take a stitchgroover and make a stitching groove around the perimeter of the stirrup on the outside layer of leather. I usually start my handsewing at the center of the tread and work up and around one side of the stirrup and end it in the middle. Then I do the same to the other side of the stirrup. When your sewing is done you can trim the excess overhanging leather of the inside pieces, sand the edges and run an edger all the way around the stirrup... nice touch if you burnish the edges as well. After all this is done, I make a paper pattern for the tread. I cut the tread out of the heavy part of the neck that is a bit pulpy... this softer leather is a little easier to mold around the stirrup and the 16 - 17 oz neck will last along time... It also covers the small space in the middle of the tread (top and bottom) between your two outside pieces and your two inside pieces. I usually use rawhide lace to lace the tread together on the bottom of the stirrup. Incidentally, I agree with Greg that covering stirrups that will have taps is a waste of time... It'll also make them extremely heavy and bulky.

hey 3arrows, before you go an misinterpret Andy's first comments, keep in mind all you posted was three photos and asked for opinions... based on that I think Andy gave you an opinion that many of us share. If you had sent the saddle to him and asked what he thought, you might have gotten a different answer... or maybe not! Darc

Hey Steve, if you use Oxalic acid be careful of a couple of things... first, it's extremely toxic and the warning label reads something like "if you use this, you will die". Don't put it in a spray bottle and be careful with rags that have dried after being in the solution as the residue seems to become airborn as soon as you do anything with the rag and will give you a severe choking reaction. As was mentioned before, it's very useful for taking out small stains, especially the kind you get from having iron in your water (small black spots). Trying to make a strong solution of it serves no use as you really don't need much of the crystals mixed with water... I think Bob mentioned two teaspoons mixed in a two litre bottle of water which sounds about right. If that mixture doesn't take out the stain, a stronger one won't have any effect on the leather either. I've noticed that the solution has some sort of effect on leather that makes it harder to carve with a swivel knife. I've even noticed the leather being harder when stamping with a basket stamp or geometric stamp. I've used the stuff quite a bit and now I only use it after I'm done any carving that needs to be done. It can leave water spots like plain water so make sure if you are using it on a fender or skirt or any part of a saddle that you wash the whole piece with it (that's when I learned you don't want to put the stuff in a spray bottle... just about sent everyone and the dog to the hospital because I tried spraying it). Darc

Alan, I've heard all sorts of wild ideas about how to fit a woman's anatomy to make the saddle more comfortable. My opinion is this... You need to understand what makes a good, balanced seat; not only is the shape from front to back important, but from side to side. The seat should allow the riders legs to make good, even contact from the crotch to the point the leg drops off the horse. The only modifications the bars need is to make them narrower from the stirrup leather slot back. (this is also debatable depending on the size of the woman) The reasoning for this is that a woman's legs are generally fuller (they don't like the term fatter) on the inside of the thighs. The narrowing of the bars helps to create a bit more room for the inside of the leg which in turn allows the leg to make more even contact from the crotch to the point the leg drops off from the horse. The bars are not narrower to help a saddlemaker build a narrower ground seat; a narrower groundseat will actually be less comfortable for a woman. If you looked at what we commonly call the "pin bones", on a woman you would see that by making the seat narrower, it will actually be putting pressure on the insides of the pin bones forcing them outward which will definitly cause discomfort. I won't address the idea of association bars being narrower than Wade bars because my treemaker's bars are fairly consistent through the thigh area with the most noticable difference being below the fork to accomodate the extra stock thickness and depth of the fork. Darc

An excellent book was put out by John H. Beck and was simply titled "Saddlemaking". It is a very difficult book to find and usually quite expensive if you can find a copy but the information in it is excellent. I would say it is the equivalent of the Dale Harwood videos in that a person needs basic saddlemaking skills to get the most out of the book. The man was obviously a saddlemaker who understood his craft and the small nuances that make a good saddle. Darc

I agree with what a few others have already mentioned about not using the center of the fork or horn as a reference. Like Troy mentioned, forks can be leaned forward or stood more upright and horns can be all over the map. I like the idea of looking at the front bar pad when the tree is in the position it would be on a horse's back. Imagining the front pad in a circular shape (even though it's not a circle) and then bisecting this circle gives me what I consider full position. This often corresponds to the lowest point on the bar with the trees I use but the low point can sometimes be up to an inch long so simply picking the center of it doesn't reliably give me the position I want. In a recent discussion with a long time saddlemaker the rear reference point came up and it was noted that the center of the base of the cantle as it comes down over the bar makes a good rear reference. This requires imagining the thickness of the base of the cantle from front to back and bisecting it. This rear point sometimes coincidentally ends up at the low point of the rear of the bars or it can be slightly forward or back from the low point depending on the treemaker, bar length and bar shape. Darc

just wanted to thank you guys again, I got my string cut to the width I need and am guessing it was the blade that was the issue. I had a pack of exacto blades kicking around which are a bit thicker than the injector blades and a heck of alot sharper! The rawhide I had in the fridge may have ended up a bit dryer as well. Elton, thanks for the utility blade suggestion... I usually use those blades in my drawgauge but as luck would have it I was on the last bit of blade I had and after cutting up a bunch of latigo last week my blade was dull as a hammer. thanks again, Darc

Thanks for the replies guys... I've had some more rawhide sitting in the fridge for a few days and am going to give it another shot today using some exacto blades new out of the package. Guess I'll try and polish them first as well and see if that helps, I'll let you know how it goes. Darc

Hi, Hoping someone with more rawhide experience than myself can help explain how to cut some rawhide strings. I have some string that is about 3/8" wide that I got from Hereford Byproducts and I want to split it down so it isn't as thick and not so wide. Splitting hasn't been a problem for me as my bench splitter does this no problem. Cutting the string narrower... down to 3/16ths has been more of a challenge. I prepared my rawhide by leaving it in some water for about an hour and then putting it in a ziplock bag in the fridge for a few days. When I took it out, I was able to pull the curl out no problem and I worked some white saddle soap into it until it was the consistency of under cooked spaghetti... a little softer than dry but flexible. Everytime I try running it through my string cutter (Hanson style but made by another guy) with an injector style razor blade doing the cutting, the string starts to curl upwards between the blade and the guide. I'm pulling with a pair of pliers towards me with a downward motion to keep it tight on the bar and I'm holding the tail down with my other hand. I thought maybe the rawhide was too soft so I let it dry slightly to several different dryness' but had the same results. The rawhide that was too dry either wouldn't cut or would flex the razor outward so that the string didn't have a consistent width. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but any help or advice would be appreciated. thanks, Darc

Hey Wood, I'd try what the others suggested, rough up that grain and apply the glue on dryer leather... something else that works if you're really having problems is to thin up some glue with thinner so that it's very runny. Apply that to the leather first cause it'll absorb into the leather better; let it dry for a good hour or more (overnight if you can plan your work around it). After that first coat is nice and dry you can wet your leather again to make it a little easier to work with; dry the water off the dried glue and apply a regular coat of glue to it and let it set as normal and it should stick to anything. Darc

Hi Jon, Those are some nice looking saddles... nice, clean work with pleasing lines. Got any closeups to show off the finer details like handstitching, ear cuts, etc...? Darc

Hi Marlon, I can't remember what I paid for those knives but I think it was around $100 - $140.00 per knife last year. I have another knife that came from Ellis Barnes (photo) that I absolutely love and thought I'd order a set of them before they were no longer available. The ones in the picture are quite different than the first one I got and I actually like them better because the steel is a little thinner. My understanding of the knives was that Ellis had the steel from way back when and he had some fellow making the knives for him. He is no longer making any more of the knives so whatever Ellis has left on hand will probably be the end of the knives. Darc

I guess everyone has their favorites, here's mine... these knives are marked Gomph and sold by Ellis Barnes. Not sure who actually made them for him but the steel is unbelievable. I've tried a good number of custom knives by modern makers and haven't seen anything that compares to these... plus they're real pretty! Darc

The blades that Bob is selling are without a doubt the best thing going... properly shaped, sharp, polished and ready to go. I agree with you JW about the handle being too pointed. When you run into some hard spots on a cantle binding you really start to feel that point. Bob, if you call Bob Douglas direct and tell him what you want, he may be nice enough to go through his blades and find one on the thinner side. They only make them in two sizes but they are handmade so they vary somewhat. A few months back I told him I needed one on the thinner side for 7 or 8 stitches per inch and he managed to find one that works pretty good for that kind of work. I've attached a photo for anyone wondering what the blades and handles look like. The groover also came from Bob Douglas. Ignore the leather piece cause the holes on it were made with a pricking iron and not the awl. Darc

Hi Tiffany, if you like the idea of using a pricking iron, look at the ones made by Vegez Blanchard. They are difficult to find and quite expensive but the quality is infinitly better than the modern Dixon version. Seigels of California sells both Dixon and Vergez and when you see them side by side you'll understand what I mean. They are available in a number of different stitches per inch as well as from 3 - 12 prongs. Darc

Does anyone know where yellow linen thread in thicker sizes (6 or 7 cord) can be found? thanks, Darc

Hi Bruce, I don't have all the answers to your questions but a few things I've noticed about covering swell forks... Forks that have more undercut to them tend to be more difficult or impossible to cover without a welt. Sometimes you can cover a difficult swell fork without a welt by really working the leather and stretching it every which way only to have the cover split when you stamp it because the leather is under some tension. Obviously belly leather is going to stretch more and be easier to mold over the swells, but it'll wear quicker is someone or something is rubbing on it. It also won't carve as nicely if this is a consideration. Trying to find a piece of leather that has some life to it, can still be molded, will wear relatively slowly, and can be carved, is an art. Darc

Here's a picture of Bob's awl and handle... ignore the holes in the leather because they were done with a stitching chisel and not the awl. The handle is nice wood and well made but some may find the end a bit narrow if you are sewing a few layers of 15 oz leather. I'd prefer a handle that was wider with a flat side on it. The stitch groover is also made by Bob Douglas' company. Darc

Hi Marlon, I've attached a photo which shows the granite slab that I use. I got it from a local quarry that does custom cutting... it's about 30"s wide x 36"s deep and 2"s thick. I paid $80.00 for it because it's unpolished. I use this slab for everything from stamping to slicking leather and have never had any problem with it marking leather etc... The only things worth mentioning are that granite is porous if not sealed and will stain If you have a raw piece of rock like mine you have to be a little careful of the edges which are not rounded, if your leather drapes over the edges of the slab, the rough edge can mark the leather. Darc

Hi Don, good job on that saddle... that's a fine looking piece of work. As a few people mentioned, that is a challenging style of saddle to put together and to do a nice job of it (like you did) is even tougher. Especially like the job you did with the square skirts... making them look square on the back end gives most people fits. Tell me about the thread you used... is that yellow linen? Don't see that much anymore, but it has a really nice effect on your saddle. Darc

Hi JW, I'm sure this subject is going to get talked to death so instead of giving all my thoughts on flat plate rigging, I'll just mention a couple of points I've noticed over the years. First, bulk is an interesting topic in that a working cowboy who has spent most of his time in a rig with a correctly built flat plate rigging is going to have a different perception of bulk than someone who has spent most of their time in a cutting or reining saddle and then is suddenly dropped into a buckaroo rig with a flat plate. Many people get used to what they ride and given enough time will tell you that even a poorly shaped seat feels good to them; This may be part of what Gerald was mentioning as the "psychological issues". Dale Harwood once mentioned that on a fishing trip he was on, the saddles that the guide provided were some of the worst built rigs he had ever seen, but by the end of the whole trip they felt just fine. Perhaps people adjust their riding style to the saddle or perhaps some people have just never experienced a properly built saddle, either way the bulk of a properly built flat plate shouldn't be an issue for most people. The other point I wanted to mention touches on skirt depth and how deep the flat plate is... it is quite important to give thought to your rider's body style. If you have a rider who is quite tall with long legs, you have more options as far as how deep you can make the flat plate. If your rider is on the short side, a dropped flat plate that has a knot tied in the latigo can start to interfere with stirrup leather swing. If you look at the photo Bruce posted an notice where the blevins buckle keeper is in relation to where the knot in a latigo would be, you can see there would still be a space between the two. If that same saddle was for someone with short legs (with shorter fenders and leathers) the blevins buckle would be on top of the knot which would probably cause the stirrup leather to catch on the knot. For someone with very short legs you would be better off not dropping the flate plat as low which means you'd need skirts that weren't quite as deep to keep the rigging and latigo knot off the skirt. You may also have to keep the twist in the stirrup leather as low as possible as well. Darc

Hi figthnbullrider, the horn wound up covered on that saddle... I usually cover them after I have stamped the fork cause you have a little more room to get your stamping tools in the tight areas under the cap. Darc

Last summer I had a fellow call me to ask my opinion on La Porte trees and cable rigging. I told him straight up that I'm a traditionalist and would probably never use anything but a handmade rawhide covered wood tree. I have used trees from some of the finest treemakers around such as Rod and Denise from this forum, Rick Reed, Warren Wright, and Glenn Christman. When I first started making saddles I was using trees from Bowden, Superior, and Hercules and it wasn't until I saw a fine handmade tree that the differences in quality and fit became apparent. This fellow came out to visit me a few weeks later and brought a couple of La Porte trees to show me and perhaps change my perception about them a bit. I brought out a couple of nice handmade Wade trees so we could compare them side to side. Here is what I concluded... The material they are made from is infinitly better than the old Ralide trees that I had seen broken so often. The groundseat has an acceptable shape that was alot better than I thought it would be. Compared to the trees I am used to, the bars had substantially less surface area in both length and depth and for guys really using the saddles hard, that would be of concern to me. The trees are limited in the sense that I can't ask them to shave a corner off a cantle or make the fork thinner or fuller or move the widest point of a swell up or down... this is something very important to me. Something I found interesting was that the tree this fellow showed me had some serious sanding marks on the bottom side of the bars and when I asked about them he said he had taken a belt sander to the bars to do some micro fitting for one of his own horses. I'm not an advocate of fitting a single horse in that sense, but found it interesting that this could be done to the tree without compromising it's integrity. The only other thing about it was it had cable rigging which I am not a fan of. My overall conclusion about the tree was that there is definitly a place in the saddle world for them as a cost effective alternative. That said, I'd still never use one... good handmade trees fit horses well, are available in almost any shape or form, have longevity, and even though they may cost more and take longer to get they are what my customers want.

If a wood tree is completely encased in some sort of waterproof liner, that must mean that moisture can't get out of the wood either... I highly doubt the wood being used in these trees is completely free of moisture; could that lead to rot from the inside out? Darc

Just wanted to thank everyone for their replies.... I've decided to put a connecting strap on for the purpose of "guiding the stirrup leathers". The oldtimer that first explained the style of rigging to me gave the same types of reasons for having it there but it's great to hear other makers opinions on it. thanks again, Darc