D.A. Kabatoff

Cord, there are a few different ways to build a Cheyenne roll and if you don't have someone to show you, a book or a video would be useful. Without writing a book, here's the basics of it. Some makers use a filler between the cantle back and seat and others don't. Typically what I do is start by fitting the cantle back and glueing it in place. Leave the the cheyenne roll portion standing straight up and let the glue cure like this over night. By letting the glue cure over night, the leather will not be as prone to pulling away from the top edge of the cantle when you start to form the roll. In the morning you can use a spray bottle to moisten the cheyenne roll portion of the cantle back and then flip it down... use a shoemaker's hammer to form the roll into the shape you want it. I use a tickler on the back side, under the roll to form a crease where you flipped the roll down. The next step involves a filler piece which covers the cantle face and overlaps the cantle back. The lower portion goes across the face of the cantle from cantle point to cantle point and has a wide skive to blend in with the ground seat. Glue it in place while it is as wet as cased leather, this will make it easier to form it over the top edge of the cantle. I use a shoemaker's hammer across the top edge of the cantle to accentuate the bend in the filler as it goes over the top of the cantle. If you let that area stay rounded, by the time you have all your layers together, it starts to get to round and looks odd to me. At this point I often trim the two layers of leather into the width and shape I want my roll to be. You can use a tickler and crease a line into the leather around the back, top edge of the cantle. Set you calipers to whatever width you want your roll and scibe a trimming line by following the line you creased with your tickler. Some makers wait until the top seat is glued down and trim all three layers together. Once your seat is fitted and ready to be installed, glue it down and again moisten the part of the seat that will be part of the roll so that it is easier to form over the top edge of the cantle. After it's glued down, trim the seat to match the rest of the roll. I use a small spokeshave on the back edge of the three layers to make sure everything is nice and smooth... very coarse sandpaper will also work. Take the extra time to make sure the width of the roll is the same all the way around the cantle. After you have the three layers trimmed evenly, edge the top and bottom. You can now fit your binding. Skive the back portion of the binding down to about 3-4 oz otheriwse you will have a heck of a time trying to remove the bubbles and getting everything to fit properly. It will take a good amount of time to get the binding glued down and fitted smoothly underneath... this is a task where a video showing how to do it would make your life much easier (Jeremiah Watt does a great job of explaining this in his. I've posted a photo below that shows the three layers. You should be able to see the cantle back and filler glued together and the seat fitting over them. Darc

Wyldflower, of the few modern Osborne knives I have seen, this appears to be their typical quality. Worse yet is the sharpness of the blade. It will take considerable work to bring that blade up to par for doing any real work. I noticed in your profile that you are interested in horse gear and saddlery work... I would suggest you return that knife and get a refund for the forty or fifty dollars you spent and bite the bullet and buy a well made knife... not from Tandy or The Leather Factory, but a good handmade one that will cost you in the area of $100.00 - $150.00. If you are cutting heavy skirting leather, harness leather, latigo, etc... for saddlery work, you will need the sharpest knife possible otherwise you increase the risk of personal injury from a knife that won't glide through leather. You will also find it extremely difficult to cut graceful curves for seats, skirts, fenders, etc...unless you have a knife that is razor sharp. A head knife is the tool that you will probably use more than anything else on your bench, I would not settle for second best with this particular tool. My first knife about 8 years ago was an Osborne similar to what you have and I can tell you from personal experience that you will never get that knife as sharp as it needs to be. To suggest some alternatives, you could watch Ebay for some of the older Osborne or W.Rose knives which can be recognized by the oval shaped butt of the handle compared with the sawed off handle on your knife. If you find one in good condition you can expect to pay anywhere from $30.00 and up for it. It may require sharpening but that old steel seems to take an edge better than the new blades. Another option is some of the modern knives available. If you do a search on Leathernet for Head Knives or Round Knives, there have been some threads in the past where people expressed their likes and dislikes about some of the modern knives. My personal favorite came from Ellis Barnes company, Gomph-Hackbarth (Rest in peace Ellis)... A fellow named Lonnie has taken over the company after working for Ellis for a number of years before he passed away. I recently received a brochure from Lonnie and it states the price for these knives is $95.00 which is a bargain in my opinion. They are delivered razor sharp and no work is needed to go to work with these knives. Many of the members of this forum have favorite knives as well, so a simple search would be worth the time. If you are interested in the Gomph knives, Lonnies phone number is (520)642-3891 hope that helps, Darc ps here's the link to the favorite knife thread. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1256&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1

Ty, nice looking saddle... clean work overall. The only thing I'd suggest for improvement is trying to keep the space between the lower edge of your rear jockeys and the lower edge of the skirt, the same all the way around. It's not always possible to do this, especially if you have short skirts but on your saddle the rear edge of the jockeys are noticeably closer to the rear edge of the skirts when compared to the area underneath the rear rigging dees. If you lowered the bottom edges of the rear jockeys a bit, it would be less noticeable and the bottom edge of the rear jockeys would then line up better with the bottom edge of the front seat jockey. Other than that, great work. Darc

Hey Lucas, part of the modern day confusion comes from all the hybrid type trees out there... if you like the extra lip in front of the horn, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You could order a "modified Wade" that has the extra stock thickness you like but specify to the tree maker that you want the extra clearance in the gullet to fit whatever kinds of horses you are trying to fit. I'm currently working on a saddle right now that when finished, to the average eye, will look like a Wade. It actually has a 4 1/2" stock thickness (half inch shorter than a wade)that some might say makes it a Ray Hunt style Wade. It actually has a gullet height which is taller than a typical Wade but once covered with leather, it would take a discerning eye to tell the difference. Darc

Lucas, the three trees in question have a few differences with the most obvious being the stock thickness... this is the top line of the fork measured from the front lip to the back side (nearest the rider). Warren Wright has told me in the past that his Wade tree is as close to the original Wade tree as is possible. When he was in the U.S. a number of years ago he tracked down that saddle and took every imaginable measurement off of it and that is what he models his trees after... that said, his fork stock thickness is 5"s and the original had a woodpost horn. A Weatherly tree as explained to me by some treemakers who are also historians on the subject, has a 4" stock thickness and a 3B has a 3 1/2" like Steve mentioned; these stock thickness' are usually measured before the tree is rawhided so you could add a little more thickness to account for the rawhide. There are also some differences in the gullet height which I won't comment on specifically but a Wade tree has a lower height than a 3B or a Weatherly. The fork width is another unclear area as some 3b trees were wider than others and I suspect the same may be true for the Weatherly tree. Darc

Nice work Steve... thanks for posting the pictures, saddle photos are getting a bit thin around here lately. Are Those narrow cantles popular where you are? Just about never see them up here. Darc

The video looks great Joanne! Congratulations on taking the reins in these tough economic times, hope the new company works out for you. Is that the Friesen breeder you see from highway 99 when you are heading into White Rock? Darc

Johanne, thanks for taking the extra time to keep us updated with what's going on... makes it less frustrating when you know someone is at the controls and trying to get things running properly. Bob mentioned haveing to sign in everytime he hits "new posts". I have a different problem... when I open Leatherworker.net there is no button for "new posts". When I hit the button to "sign in", the "new posts" button appears and so does the fact that I'm still signed in (I don't actually have to sign in again... it's just not apparent on the first page that I'm acutally still signed in). Not sure what any of it means but there you go. Darc

While I can certainly appreciate the fact that some people like change and a fresh, new look, I for one am not one of them. I have enough changes elsewhere in my life that it's been nice to be able to come to a forum and not have to try and figure out something new. I suppose I'll just have to suck it up and figure this stuff out like everyone else, but I sure don't like it (of course, my opinion is likely to change by tomorrow). :wtf: Darc ps. don't know why I put the cow there...

Welcome Jim, that's a very interesting history your family has! It's a rare thing having a horse that special and caring enough about it's welfare to not exploit it. Looking forward to seeing some of you and your father's work and hearing about some of the techniques you use. Darc

Hi Ken, I've posted a picture of the stamp I use that came from Harper's... I haven't seen everything out there but of the ones I have seen, this is the best by far. The impression is crisp and clean, symetrical, letters are evenly spaced and sized, really couldn't ask for more. Not sure how different the handle is from yours but I really like this one. Sorry the photo isn't a bit better. Darc

Perhaps someone should forward this thread to Todd so he will have some idea just how fast his business can go down the drain. Bob, I've been doing the same with everyone who asks I always tell them Harper's stamps are the best out there... sure won't being doing that anymore. Darc

I'm really curious if the company has changed hands and if their leather maker's stamps have changed in quality. I got mine about eight years ago and have never seen anything as well made. I'll be looking for another one in the future and would sure like to see photos of what they are turning out now. Darc

Bob, I like your analogy about not selling a $10.00 bill for $5.00. In the saddlemaking world I see it happen both ways... people trying to sell a five dollar bill for ten. Often lack of experience shows in the product and I even believe some makers don't have an eye or aptitude for quality. There are people (customers and makers) who can look at good and bad hand stitching as an example, and not see the difference... even when you point it out, it sometimes falls on deaf ears. These same makers try to charge the same for their work as someone with more experience, finer skills, and a reputation. As for dickering, I simply won't do it. The price of my work is the price that I feel appropriate for the level of craftsmanship I feel I'm at. It is based partly on my work vs. other saddlemakers and partly on what I need to get to feel good about what I'm doing. I don't put my work or prices in the category of some of the elite modern makers, but I also won't compromise on quality or work for peanuts. As Denise mentioned, I much rather do something extra and not charge for it... when this is possible or appropriate, I do it but I don't tell people this upfront; more of a suprise as an appreciation for someone who may or may not have the means but is still trying to get the best gear they can while still recognizing my dedication by not dickering on price. Darc

Welcome aboard Linda, thought I'd post a couple photos you may or may not have seen. This sidesaddle was built by Chuck Stormes for the TCAA sale a couple of years ago. It's absolutely stunning! The silver work was done by Scott Hardy, also a TCAA member. Look forward to seeing your work. Darc

Hey Bob, if you can't find the brass ones anywhere else, Weaver leather sells them. Anyone else have problems with the keeper marking up the back of the stirrup leathers? I've talked to a number of guys who have the same problem with them. If your stirrup leathers have the grain side against the horse, the keepers sure can make a mess of the leather. Some guys say it's the pins of the plates and others say it's the sharp metal edges of the keepers. Darc

well put Johanna... I'm sure those videos cost a pile of time and money for one man shops to make. Darc

Good work on those saddles... nice to see you are using decent trees, doesn't matter how good or bad the leather work is if the tree is a piece of junk. Hope, you have a safe tour in Aghanistan! Darc

good job Aaron, looks pretty good for a first effort. You'll know if you got it right when you get out riding. Darc

Hi Tim, I've never tried Bob's method... If you decide to make a Chinaman wrap like Steve described, it helps to fold the handle end over twice for about 3"s so that it is triple layered, this helps prevent the hole from tearing when you get alot of tension on it. Sew the perimeter of the three layers and use about a 1" hole punch to cut a hole out of the center of the three layers...Stitch around the hole. You can stick your hammer handle through the hole or 1" hardwood dowel works well. You are going to want to wash the latigo in hot water with soap a few times to try and get rid of the dye in it which will come out on your horn wrap. Wrap your horn like Steve described and then use the Chinaman. When you want to use the wrap, soak it in water and wipe the excess off... apply some saddle soap to the wrap so that it will slip on the horn wrap (you'll know if the Chinaman is too dry because it won't slip). I usually wrap the Chinaman around the horn once, sometimes twice. When you wrap it around the horn, make sure the handle ends up against the horn, leaving the rest of the Chinaman as a tail. Start turning your handle around the horn in the direction you are tightening the wrap. I usually don't tack the second wing of the horn wrap so that when the Chinaman starts tightening everything, you can pull a little more slack out of the horn wrap itself. After you get it nice and tight, tack it down. I usually tighten my horn wraps while there is still some moisture in them (about the same consistency as cased leather) as this allows the Chinaman to burnish them as well. When they dry, they will shrink a bit as well and really be tight. Some guys wrap an inner tube around the horn while it dries so that the horn wrap doesn't back off while it is drying. I usually tighten my wraps last thing before I call it quits for the day and simply leave the Chinaman wrapped around the horn with tension on it. You can wedge the long side of the handle against the lower edge of the cantle to keep that tension on. I've posted a photo below of a wrap (sorry it isn't a better photo), you can see the edge of the wing on the back side of the horn... if you don't keep tension on the wrap while it dries, that edge will move about 1/8th" and leave a mark on the horn of where it originally was. hope that helps Darc

Hi Johann, the leather is from Hermann Oak. Darc

Hi Johann I'm self taught when it comes to floral carving so I can't say with certainty that the way I do things is the "right way", but here are a few things to keep in mind... Bargrounding takes practice and patience to keep the rows parallel to each other. Good tools help alot as well and usually come in two styles; shallow and deep. The shallow grounder's holes are not very deep and usually bottom out when tapped into leather. The deep ones have holes that are deeper than you will hit them into the leather and probably take more skill to use; if you do not hit the tool with consistant force you will see more of a difference between tool marks. I have both kind but always seem to use the shallow ones. Bargrounders come in many different sizes and you need to use the correct size for the type of work you are doing. If you are doing very fine work or small projects, you will need grounders that have smaller holes so that you can fit the tools into the small crevices between flowers and vines. If you are doing larger work you can use something a little larger to speed things up a bit. Besides speed, grounders that are too big or small for the project can look unbalanced. There are a couple of commonly used methods of grounding. You can either fan the tool or you can keep the tool marks parallel to each other. Fanning them is quicker because you don't need to keep reaching for different size tools as the space you are grounding narrows out. If you look at the first photo you can see the space beteween the vines narrow into points, the grounding is fanned into these spaces. I prefer trying to keep everything parallel, to my eye it looks cleaner than the fanning method but either way can look nice if done carefully. If you are using the method of keeping everything parallel, it really looks nice if you can keep all the tool marks running in the same direction instead of one space having marks running vertically and the next space having the marks running horizontally or diagonally. This is more time consuming but sure looks nice when done. The second photo shows grounding like this. Hope that helps a little. Darc

not sure how I missed this topic as well but Bruce is absolutely correct about the direction of the pins. Typically, the pins of the blevins would be facing the opposite direction as pictured below. If what you have looks like the photo below, then you will have to drill out the rivets, reverse the plates, and rivet them back in. After that you can wet the leather and make your twist as shown in the photo you posted. Darc

Cory, You mentioned the leather buckling at the edges... this can be the result of several things including too soft leather, poor awl (bad shape, size and sharpness), and no support for the leather while sewing. Something else you should keep in mind is the quality of your tools and materials. Thonging chisels are made for thonging, not handsewing, and will rarely if ever match up in size with an awl. If you are using the chisel because it marks the angle, get rid of it and find a proper pricking iron. The best modern ones available seem to be from Vergez Blanchard and can still be bought in North America through Siegels of California. I think Marlon mentioned consistency in everything you do and lots of practice... This also means the way you grip your awl; put a mark on the handle so that everytime you grip it, it is in the same place in your hand. Over time this will feel more natural and allow you to make your holes at the same angle without the help of a pricking iron. Using a good stitching horse (the old ones) that is ergonomically designed will do wonders for your handsewing... the old ones with the clamp mounted on a bench have the clamp turned to the right and leaned to the left so that it matches up with your natural posture (for righthanded people). The stitching horse will also support your work at the edges so that it isn't bending and flexing while you are trying to push your awl through it. Make sure you are using a properly sized awl for your work that is sharp. If you are trying to use something right off the shelf from Tandy, you will be making the work much more difficult than it needs to be. You may have seen in other threads on the forum that everyone is always going off about the awls that Bob Douglas of Sheridan, Wy is selling... these awls are a good shape and sharp and polished to be used. If you don't want to spend the money on such an awl, you need to get a look at a proper awl and fabricate one yourself... You will also need needles to match your awl size and thread size. If they don't match up you will be using pliers to try and pull your needle through the work on every stitch. You may also wind up with the opposite problem where your awl is too big for the size of thread you are using and the thread isn't big enough to fill the awl hole. Finally, if you are using pulpy, belly leather that was poorly tanned, you will never get the desired look. You need to learn what makes good leather good... this will come with experience, but you can just about bet like anything, price is often and indicator of quality with leather (not always, but usually). After you get all the proper tools and materials, proper technique and practice will produce the results you are looking for... don't expect too much too quickly as most good handsewing comes from people with years of experience.

Steve, great work as usual... I like the square skirts really suits the old california style saddles you build. Question about your groundwork cause my monitor is terrible; Do you just cut a stirrup leather plug out of the top layer of the ground work or do cut through all the layers? From the photo it kind of looks like you only cut out the top layer. Darc