D.A. Kabatoff

Hoping I can get some opinions about the rigging screw holes in a tree. A friend recently brought me a pretty decent, handmade saddle for some repairs which included replacing the rigging. When I got the rigging off I discovered the holes were in slightly different places on the left and right side of the saddle... I put the old rigging back on and discovered that it was actually off by about 3/16ths in height and 3/16ths front to back on one side. Since I'm replacing the rigging, I wondered if it's possible to fill the old screw holes with some sort of epoxy and drill new ones very close to the old holes? Anyone ever try this? The new holes would be slightly above and to the side of the old ones, so the pull would be towards where the old holes were filled. thanks, Darc

I wasn't sure the best place on this forum for this announcement so I have posted it here as well as the Saddlery area of the forum. I was recently contacted by Dave Ciriani who is the organizer of the Western Art and Gear Show for the Kamloops Cowboy Festival, I offered to post the information for next years saddle competition. This is the show that Ryan Cope won earlier this year with a nice Homestead Wade saddle... I believe he posted a photo of the silver engraved buckle (made by Richard Tennisch) that came along with top honors as judged by Chuck Stormes. Chuck will be back next year to judge the show once more. It would be really nice to see some of the saddle makers from this forum and their work in Kamloops next year. It sounds like the show is being expanded to include a division for amateurs. I'm not really sure how to post the doc. file I was sent so I have simply cut and pasted it. Darc Kamloops Cowboy Festival Art of the West Saddle Show The Kamloops Cowboy Festival will be presenting its Saddle Show in conjunction with its Art of the West Show and Sale, sponsored by Canadian Cowboy Country magazine. The show will once again be judged by Mr. Chuck Stormes. The Best of Show saddle will receive a rosette and a handcrafted buckle by Mr. Richard Tenisch. 1st and 2nd runners-up will receive rosettes and cash prizes. The amateur division will award rosettes and cash prizes. For more information on the Kamloops Cowboy Festival and the show, see our website at www.bcchs.com or contact David Ciriani, Art Show Chairman, at ciriani@telus.net or (250) 374-9649

I was recently contacted by Dave Ciriani who is the organizer of the Western Art and Gear Show for the Kamloops Cowboy Festival, I offered to post the information for next years saddle competition. This is the show that Ryan Cope won earlier this year with a nice Homestead Wade saddle... I believe he posted a photo of the silver engraved buckle (made by Richard Tennisch) that came along with top honors as judged by Chuck Stormes. Chuck will be back next year to judge the show once more. It would be really nice to see some of the saddle makers from this forum and their work in Kamloops next year. It sounds like the show is being expanded to include a division for amateurs. I'm not really sure how to post the doc. file I was sent so I have simply cut and pasted it. Darc Kamloops Cowboy Festival Art of the West Saddle Show The Kamloops Cowboy Festival will be presenting its Saddle Show in conjunction with its Art of the West Show and Sale, sponsored by Canadian Cowboy Country magazine. The show will once again be judged by Mr. Chuck Stormes. The Best of Show saddle will receive a rosette and a handcrafted buckle by Mr. Richard Tenisch. 1st and 2nd runners-up will receive rosettes and cash prizes. The amateur division will award rosettes and cash prizes. For more information on the Kamloops Cowboy Festival and the show, see our website at www.bcchs.com or contact David Ciriani, Art Show Chairman, at ciriani@telus.net or (250) 374-9649

Hi Pella, try Harvey J. Boutin in California... that's where I get my dark brown latigo. The phone number is: (510)569-6100. The heaviest they have is a 9 -10 oz which is a bit lighter than I like for saddle latigos but if you ask them to try and pick you out the heaviest hide they can find it should be heavy enough. Darc

Hi Jw, sure would like to hear how it works out for you... I don't see a reason it can't work for any type of rigging that's screwed to the tree. Darc

Hi Keith, I would determine my rigging position as I always have using the points of refernce that I'm comfortable with to find full position and then build the different postions into my paper patterns. I would then have patterns for 7/8ths, 3/4s, etc... trying to keep my screw holes consitently in the same position. After thinking about this a little more, I figure I will have my tree maker mark on the bare wood with a felt pen where my screw holes should be. Hopefully this would show through the rawhide and would make up for any inconsistency in hide thickness and allow the two sides to be indentical. Darc

Just starting work on some flat plate riggings and it got me to thinking about this whole point of reference thing, rigging positions, etc... I am making a roughout saddle that will have flatplate riggings which I have already assembled and have ready to install. I know from reading posts over the last year that people have a variety of ways in which they find their rigging position and then there are almost as many methods of installing the riggings evenly that range from advanced jigs to eyeing it up. The two flat plates I have are absolutely identical in every aspect other than being a left and a right. My question is, has anyone ever punched or drilled their screw holes in both flat plates, lining up the holes with one plate on top of the other so that the holes are in exactly the same place on both riggings and then marking the screw holes positions on the bar and pre drilling them by using a paper template of the bar shape as shown below? This seems like an extremely simple way of ensuring that the riggings are installed evenly and are pulling the tree down in exactly the same way. I have seen factory made trees with one bar that is longer, shorter, thicker, and taller than the other but the handmade trees I use are quite precise so I don't see a problem with the squareness of the rigging being thrown out of true from asymetry. Anyone have any thoughts on why this couldn't work? Darc

Hi Randy, thanks for the photo and the explanation. I think there is alot of different perceptions on the point of a tree flexing. Seems alot of people think it somehow helps with comfort etc... It was explained to me along time ago similar to what you were describing; The flex is there to help protect the integrity of the tree. If it didn't flex and was brittle, the first big hit it took would cause it to break. I have often wondered what the point of these trees with rubber bars is? Darc

Pella, that stitch groover was made by Bob Douglas of Sheridan, Wyoming; same as the awl. Darc

Hey Troy, the camera is a Fuji F30... great for low light photos. The photo was taken in my shop with the lights out and no flash... only the light through the windows. It's a small camera that's easy to take anywhere (not much bigger than a cell phone). Best thing is because the model is a year or two old you can get them for under $300.00. Darc

Wasn't really sure where to post this question so here it is... I've been having some problems with my Landis 3 leaving foot prints in the leather as seen in the photo below.... I've tried backing off the foot pressure as much as possible and it still leaves the same marks. I only sew on dry, firm skirting leather. The marks on the roll in the photo are after I've tried using a slicker to remove them... they started fairly deep. I got the foot from Campbell-Bosworth and am thinking it has something to do with the shape of the foot itself. Any ideas would be appreciated Darc

Brian, beautiful work on that saddle... i've made a few square skirts and know how hard it is to keep those skirts looking straight and square, you did a heck of a job. Beautiful carving, nice clean work with great flow. Love to see a few more photos from different angles with some close ups. Darc

Hi Joanne, I'm in the lower mainland (Mission) and could take a look at your horse to help you determine what kind of tree would fit your horse. I PM'd you my phone number. Darc

Hey Steve, On saddles that I know are going to be used a little less and kept a little cleaner I do the same as you with the tan kote. If I know the saddle is going straight to work and is going to be covered in dust and dirt most of the time, I don't bother with the Tan Kote... pure neatsfoot oil and a good coating of R.M. Williams. I find alot of the finishes look nice when put on but wear off unevenly or don't allow oil to penetrate very easily. Darc

Hey Clay, thanks for the photos... for those of us who couldn't make it this year, your post is much appreciated! Darc

Jennifer, interesting comments on how the production of synthetic materials affects the environment and is there an actual reason to produce trees made from these materials. I don't agree with your statement about wood trees not being as strong today as they used to. I won't comment on the use of factory made wood trees because I don't use them... If you are talking about handmade trees, the way they are built today is every bit as good as they used to be and in many cases better. The trees I use are stronger and lighter than many of the old trees because the wood working methods have improved with the use of laminations of different woods in the forks and use of different woods for the bars and cantles which provide a great combination of strength, flexibility, and light weight. A good portion of a tree's strength comes from the rawhide and as long as treemaker's pick decent hides, the strength and integrity of the tree will always be top notch. Darc

Tosch, thanks for the links, very interesting information. I especially like near the end of the thread, David provides a link to this forum so that everyone on that forum "can see what they are up against when you go to buy a saddle". His explanation of why he wouldn't send a tree to Greg to try building on is also very clear... he doesn't think others are open minded enough to try different ideas and decide for themselves. D.

Yonatan, I think that you've put into words what alot of us feel... trying to find a balance between the three seat positions that allows somebody working in a variety of conditions and performing many different tasks to be able to move in the seat that gives them the best comfort, balance, and security. I have posted a bunch of photos below showing some seat shapes from Visalia and Hamley's (these are just a sampling from the two companies... both makers had seat shapes that changed quite drastically over the years) and a couple of my own, there is a clearly visible difference of where the rider was intended to sit... is one right or wrong? I guess we all have to be our own judge of where we want our customers sitting. For myself, I like a seat similar to what Yonatan described which gives you some freedom to move forward and back from the low spot, to the position that suits the task at hand. As Ben mentioned, different horses may have different requirements and having the flexibility to adapt is most important to me. I'd also be curious to hear anyone's opinion on how seat length affects rider position. Darc

Well put Brian! I have always found it annoying listening to people whine about poor saddle fit only to find out they are trying to fit their twenty thousand dollar horse, towed in a thirty thousand dollar trailer behind a fifty thousand truck with the cheapest saddle they could find. As you mentioned, it is the one piece of equipment that directly relates to the comfort and perfomance of both horse and rider... and on top of that, when the truck and trailer have ran their usual course of about 8 - 10 years, the saddle will be going strong for a good while longer, all the time looking better with age. The thought of it all makes me want to go boost my base price! Darc

Hi guys, interesting topic... I have always liked the old saddles with cantle shapes that could be considered shovel or spade in shape. I think it'd be very difficult to nail down definitions for these cantles because the shapes have evolved alot over the years. The best idea I could come up with was to look at some of the cantle shapes from influential saddleries like Visalia and Main & Winchester. I looked through a good number of photos from some of the old saddleries and have posted a few pictures of cantles that would fit with modern ideas of what spade and shovel cantles should look like. Something I found interesting is that almost none of the photos I looked at had their widest point at the very base of the cantle where it attaches to the bars. There seems to be a slight curl under at the lowest point, with the widest point being between 1 - 3 inches above this point. I have had cantles on modern trees that truly are widest at the point the cantle meets the bars... Something I noticed building on trees like that is that it changes where the ear of the seat lies and makes it more difficult to tuck it in close to the side of the cantle. Some of the cantles pictured may be more round in shape but i've included them because they seem to be part of the evolution of spade and shovel cantles... not really sure which would've come first. There are also a couple photos of modern trees that were deemed to be shovel in shape... you can be the judge if they fit the bill. Darc

Hi Steve, thanks for the information... Where you take your rigging from is where I usually get mine as well... Taking the taps from where I did in the hide cut into this area so that I didn't have enough leather there (poor planning on my part). The area that I had left would be dead center of where most seats would be cut and perhaps slightly lower so that the part of the rigging that wraps around the cantle is getting towards the belly area and the area where the plate will be riveted is pointing up towards the spine. I wound up cutting the riggings last night and although they are a bit thicker than they really need to be, they'll work just fine. Ryan, thanks for the photos... I've seen photos in books that show almost identical layout. Darc

I haven't seen any discussion about which part of the hide various makers cut their pieces from. I know a few different guys who cut their hides completely different and flipping through some of my books I noticed the hides were layed out quite differently. I've layed my hides out a few different ways depending on the size of them and the saddle to be built. I have some customers who want the thickest fenders they can get and others who want them quite thin... I'm usually happy to accomodate such requests as long as I can get my stirrup leathers, rigging pieces, and rear billets and cinch from good, tight grained leather. What really got me thinking about this was I have four hides that have 26", one piece tapaderos taken out of the butts leaving some pretty decent leather dead smack in the middle of the butt. This leather isn't large enough to get fenders or skirts from and I don't need anymore jockeys. Has anyone ever taken a flat plate rigging from this area? I have a full floral saddle coming up and thought it may make for some nice carving leather if I pull the stretch out with a slicker... anyone have any thoughts on this? Darc

Ben, your idea is an interesting one and I thought i'd add a thought or two based on my own experience. When I started making saddles about 8 years ago I had the same problems as any new saddlemaker which included finding customers. At that time I found Ebay a very useful tool for not only selling the odd saddle but finding customers who wanted to order saddles. It took me a couple of saddles but I found a pattern in the market that dictated what kind of saddle I had to make if I wanted to get top dollar for it on Ebay and promote custom orders as well. In a very short time I was backed up with about two years worth of orders which I strongly attribute to the types of photos I put on Ebay with my listing. As a new saddlemaker in the big scheme, I knew what my shortcomings were and was constantly striving to improve these areas based on viewing other makers work... for me it was the small details like handstitching or ear cuts or jockeys fitting tightly around the cantle. As these areas improved on my saddles, I would be sure to put hi-res, closeup photos on my Ebay listings, showing great detail so that there was no doubt in a viewers mind what they were buying. By doing so, I was getting top dollar compared to some other work that I deemed decent based on the makers name and being familiar with their work. As an example, at one time I had a plain roughout wade saddle on Ebay that sold for $3800.00 (about five years ago) while at the same time there were a few other well made saddles with similar seat sizes, partial floral carving and made by a couple of well know saddlemakers from California. While their listings included about three or four photos showing front, side, back, and angle shots, my listing inlcuded 14 photos that showed every angle imaginable with extreme closeups of handsewing on the horn cap and cantle, as well as the small details I mentioned above. I had to conclude that the reason I was getting a much better price was simply from the better photos and perhaps more detailed description on materials etc. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it seems customers who are buying over the internet and are willing to spend top dollar, are well educated on the finer points of handmade saddles and realize how deceiving photos can be.... How many times have you seen photos of a saddle that looked to be not bad only to see an actual saddle from the maker and be somewhat disappointed? I have seen this numerous times. I think the category of detailed shots you listed needs to be expanded to include the very fine points that saddlemakers use to judge other saddlemaker's work. For me, one of the first things I notice is how well a cantlebinding has been sewn or how tight and clean the ear cuts are... I think an increasing number of customers are noticing these points as well. A final note on side photos is trying to show seat shape. While it is impossible to give a comprehensive idea of seat shape in a one dimensional photo, a side view that has a saddle sitting the way it would on a horse gives some idea of the amount of seat rise, front and back from the low spot. I have had a good number of customers express interest in my saddles based on this type photo. Be interested to hear other peoples ideas on this. Darc

Hey Choco if you are splitting rawhide lace on a bench splitter, you have to make sure that the blade is razor sharp... that craftool splitter blade is going to need some work. I'd take the blade to a good sharpening shop that can but a hollow grind on the blade that goes about 1/2" to 3/4"s deep and runs the entire length of the blade. Not only will you have a blade that is sharp enough to split anything, but the reduced thickness will also help it from digging in and cutting your string... I'll try to post a photo later of my own splitter that shows this hollow grind. Darc

Hey Bruce, about the only reason I can see for doing them in four pieces other than two like yourself is that it's easier finding the smaller pieces in the scrap bin... other than that, it'd probably be a bit easier doing it your way. Duke, regardless of leather weight, I still wouldn't cover them myself, you'd be suprised at the weight of leather covered stirrups ... even light weight leather will be significant by the time you get oil and conditioner in them... If you're worried about appearance, use some nice brass bound or monel bound stirrups, that's what I use in all my taps. Darc