Tosch

Joe, have you found out what a Helena tree is? Tosch

From the first as well as the second set of pictures you provided I have the impression that your horse's rear end is higher than his front end. I am wondering if this contributes to the problem. Doesn't help with finding a solution, though. Tosch

Traveller, every winter again members of a German western rider forum complain about hair being rubbed off. Their soluntion is they put a deer skin between horse and pad, hair-side down with the hair lying in the same direction as the horse's hair. They all report it helps. Might not cure the underlying cause, though. Merry Xmas to all of you and I hope you are not snown in too bad. Tosch

In the Sawtooth Saddle Company's 2007 saddle catalog there is a picture of the fork of a "Montana Tree" . Since the pic is not available at their current online catalog I could scan the pic - but not before this wednesday. The swells are bulged out to the sides in a "round" fashion and the explanation of the tree is "This tree style was developed by the Miles City Saddlery Company which was owned by Coggshall at the time. It is said to be the first tree to be carved with swells instead of pieced together with individual pieces of wood to make the swells. Coggshall is credited with the idea but he was the business owner, and not a saddlemaker. The swells are low on this tree which make them very accessible to the rider." As it was explained to me the rider just has to lift his legs a little and his legs lock on to the swells. If of interest let me know about the scan. Tosch

Mort, maybe you just shouldn`t saddle on the shoulder. Tosch

Julia, the disadvantage is the different body shape of today's horses. The horses then were "more flap sided", at least this was the term I heard. "The average width for the center-fire -rig is (well, was) 6 inches". I have a pic showing a "split cinch", which looks like two cinches connected to one buckle (on each side) with some space in between, its strength is described as " it is strong enough to hold an elephant if the rider should happen to rope one". But with the different shape of today's horses I am not so sure this would be a good idea. Tosch

I have been watching this discussion with increasing confusion… All aspects you mention SUH have been discussed in length in other topics in this forum…. There are different materials available with which to cover a wood tree. You mentioned Ortho-Flex flex panel trees/saddles. The inventor Len Brown has, well, adjusted his opinion over time as you can see at his new website www.thecorrector.net. The American-saddles.de site you mention is run by Len Brown's former German sister company. For same time there was a lot of talk here in Central Europe about these saddles – seems to have disappeared. The flex tree saddles are very popular here in the German speaking countries. Mostly with girls/young women who do not even know where a saddle should sit on a horse and who ride in an arena 99% of the time and hardly ride more than 1 hour at a time, three times a week. Information on saddle trees and saddle fit is hard to come by here. And flexible sounds so good, so gentle, so gentle…. These saddles are heavily advertised here. Maybe due to the fact that the company that imports the saddles to Germany (maybe to all of Europe) owns the Alabama based saddle company (and its higher positioned sister company based elsewhere in the US - Indiana?). These saddles are also heavily endorsed by German/European big name reining competitors. In a German forum it was mentioned that these flex trees have been stiffened up by the (large volume) US production tree company that makes them. If flex is so great, I wonder why? I also noticed that flex saddles here normally are ridden with neoprene or brand name "pressure point elimination " type of pads. Makes no sense to me if a flex tree is such a good thing. The pressure measuring pad you have shown had been a hype around here some time ago, too. Measuring a horse and rider combination standing still, standing still in the correct posture /position? People who presumingly had no great understanding of statistical terms (standard deviations and confidence intervals were prominently displayed on the result screen along with impressing pictures meant to show some science) where trying to explain "whatever" to well-meaning and uneducated riders of the type mentioned above. Even when you want to make a tree completely out of foam – I am afraid you are not going to re-invent the wheel. Such a tree has been around for a while. As I understand they are made in Italy. Saddles built on this type are endurance as well as so called "western" saddles. This German site allows a good view at the tree : http://www.distanzreiter.de/index.html?saettel_podium_zubehoer_und_optionen.htm and here is a US side showing some saddle models but not the "western" model : http://www.equineperformanceproducts.com/podium.htm . You do not even need to make a mold of a horse's back to make sure the tree fits, just use Dennis Lane's card system, also discussed in this forum. I cannot help it, but the "style" of your posts and this discussion somehow reminds me of the discussion with David G about saddles, saddle trees, and saddle fit we had some time ago. Tosch

Traveller, if you do not want to darken the leather try Lexol-nf. It does not darken the leather, well, of course, it depends on how many coats you apply and how "light" the coats are, but by far it does not darken leather as much as the other oils. Tosch

Hi JW, I just looked again at our cinches. They are very nice! The material you used lead me to another question: From a user's point of view -what is the difference between mohair, yak, and horse hair ? Which would you prefere? Thanks in advance. Tosch

For real dry leather try this one http://www.amazon.com/Effax-Leather-Balsam/dp/B000QH1GC8 you cannot beat this stuff! One coat , wait a day or two and if necessary repeat one or two more times. Tosch

I had to laugh when I saw the pic. The idea is great - but only as a joke! Other than that I dito JRedding.

Jerry, I think I might have an idea or two. Will send you an email. Tosch

I really like your style!!! BTW: since you mention "no handhole" - is there a real purpose for the handhole (besides ease of handling the saddle ?, does it really help in airing the horse's back?) ? Tosch

You are both very welcome! I am glad after all this time it still is of use to you. Tosch

Hi jbird, if it is not too late for you I might have a piece of good news for you. When looking through my files again, while looking for something else, I found an article by Dave Jones. I might have overlooked it first since the title does not directly suggest "5 way rigging". And I am certain there also was another article by him. At least this article and the pics should provide some insight to his idea. To me it is not quite clear whether in the end he settled for rawhide reinforced slots in the skirts or whether he used a 3-way metal rigging plate. But the article also invites to contact him including his phone number... but whitepages.com suggests his area code has changed to 850. The article is nearly 20 years old, and he learned saddlemakeing 40 years prior to that.... Hope this helps. Tosch Dave_Jones_5_way_rigging.pdf Dave_Jones_5_way_rigging.pdf

Echo4V/David in this discussion http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=821 inthe "Saddle supplies, tools and trees" category you will find some info and a pic about Arizona bars. You have posted in the "Saddle Constructoin" section. In this section here this topic http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4210 explains also the relation between bar pad and shoulder interference while this one http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1952 about the Lady Wade might also have info of interest to you. If you go to the search button and type in "tree" you will find many more topics incl. a discussion about trees for Paso Finos. Info about all aspects you mentioned (and much more!)is a bit spread out but worth sanning through lots of topics that have same tree relevance in their title. Hope this helps a little. Tosch

Since you have not gotten any response so far, I jump in. Although I do not have a link on hand there are several discussions on this forum regarding instruction, books and videos. You might want to look them up. But in short, the experienced saddle makers expressed that they do not have a high opinion of the DVD/the methods shown, if I remember correctly. Hope this helps. Tosch

I am sorry, looks like I throw the article away along with lots of others when I cleaned up my files about a year ago .But looks like his book "Making and repairing Western Saddles" can still be had (for @$100) as a quick google search suggests. I would assume he had put his 5 way rigging method in there, although the book was published in 1982 and I assume the article dates back to the late 1980/early 1990s. Tosch

Ashley, a long time ago Dave Jones published an article in Western Horseman. The idea behind it was to fit a saddle to a horse with (if recall correctly) very pronounced and long withers. For a front rigging he put 3 re-inforced slots in the skirts (sort of an all leather in-skirt rigging). The front slot was ahead of the full position, the 2nd slot at the full and the 3rd at the 3/4 position (if I remember correctly), so you can rig the saddle in 5 positions. I think I still do have the whole article. So, if of interest let me know and I can try to put in a pdf format. Tosch

Some time ago Crystal published a link to spirig saddlery in the US. I went to their saddle section, had a look a the saddle built for the Vienna Lipizzaner and thought I like the seat shape. http://www.spirigsaddlery.com/html/saddles.html So today on short notice I dropped by the workshop of the spirig saddlery here in Switzerland. I had a chance to chat with Mr Spirig and to sit in the Vienna saddle and the Spanish saddle. He explained to me that both saddles as well as all the dressage saddles they build have this basic seat shape, modified in the individual saddle by the rider's measurements. I had never sitten in a dressage saddle before. One sits in it completely different than in a western saddle and not only because the knee rolls force the legs back. In the Spanish saddle due to not having knee rolls one can sit a (tiny) bit like in a western saddle. It was a very interesting experience, hard to describe. So If you never sat in a dressage saddle but have a chance to sit in an expertly built saddle the right size for you with someone knowledgable explaining how to sit correctly, just try it out. Very interesting. Tosch

Maybe I am kicking a dead horse here, but maybe someone might still be interested.. May 10, B.J. asked "David, Looking at the tree pictures here. Do you have one that shows the rock of the bars? At least from the front, looks like a lot of rock. Is this how you get them forward and up over the withers more, by raising the fronts through rock? I can see how that could move the rider forward. If so...." and did not get a real answer. In my May 24 post (page 2) I posted what I had found in this regard at another place and my assumptions and PDFs I took from there. My assumption on David's saddle placement derived from the pdf " .. rigging position.." top drawing I have just found another pdf -see below - that I had store some time ago that explains David's saddle positioning - the middle section that talks about flare is one of the interesting parts. When David refers to rigging positions , keep in mind his definitions seem to vary a bit from the position definition generally used, see pdf on ".. rigging position " . Tosch Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf Genadek_Saddle_20Fit.pdf

When the saddlemakers here refer to an inskirt rig they refer to a well constructed one in which each of the top and the bottom skirt is one piece of leather (put together correcty). While a poorly constructed skirt is pieced together as Verlane's drawing shows. I have seen also seen lots of production saddles where the top skirt only consists of the front part just covering the hardware and then sewn to the bottom skirt, so it also does not pull down the back end of the tree at all. Tosch

You might find useful information about inskirt and its strength here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=906. Tosch

Julia, in case I haven`t said so before Congratulations Tosch

I had asked whether an inskirt rig really can have the pull on the tree as a flat-plate or whether this is wishful thinking Here is Darc's answer with pics: Hi Tosch, It is true that a properly installed inskirt rigging will pull evenly front to back in the same fashion as a flat plate rigging. In my opinion there isn't a perfect rigging... most styles have their benefits and all of them have their downfalls. I've posted a couple of photos of a saddle which will have flate plate rigging to illustrate one of the differences between inskirt and flatplate. The photo of the tree with the rigging on it shows how flatplate achieves the even pull front to back. The leather attaches to the lower portion of the fork, is inlaid just ahead of the cantle, and wraps around the back side of the cantle. When the saddle is cinched, it pulls everything down. The second photo is the same tree without the rigging. Imagine a rigging plate (doesn't matter what style of plate) installed in the skirt in the same position as the plate on the flat plate rigging, you can see that the plate would have the benefit of the entire length of the skirt to pull the saddle down evenly, and it'll do just that. On the plus side it will pull it down evenly without the two layers of leather under the rider's legs. Now for the downside... If you look at the first photo and how low the rigging hangs, you can see that this rigging will help keep the saddle stable from side to side; useful for mounting your horse, and roping. Advocates of in skirt rigging will tell you that you can build your skirts deeper to accomplish the same effect, and you certainly can... for some it becomes an aesthetic arguement. The only other downfall to in skirt rigging is that if anything ever happens to compromise the integrity of the rigging, you have to either do a major patch repair (not recommended) or replace the entire skirt... you are probably looking at a large expense and a skirt that doesn't match the rest of the saddle unless the original maker can do the repair. Conversely, flatplate rigging would be somewhat easier and less expensive to replace. In skirt rigging that doesn't use a metal plate should pull down just as evenly but the rigs I've seen are prone to wearing out even quicker around where the latigos hang. hope that helps. Darc