jwwright

Thanks for the thoughts folks. Much appreciated. Darc, you are correct......."First, bulk is an interesting topic in that a working cowboy who has spent most of his time in a rig with a correctly built flat plate rigging is going to have a different perception of bulk than someone who has spent most of their time in a cutting or reining saddle and then is suddenly dropped into a buckaroo rig with a flat plate." As someone who has lived it all my life from both sides, so to speak.......working cowboy and trainer of performance horses, I can sure understand your point, and I may have a little different perspective than a feller who has primarily only done one or the other. Your advice concerning depth of rigging versus leg/blevins placement also is very helpful, Thanks. Bob and Jon, Thanks for your thoughts also. I have a fella that wants me to build him an inskirt rig later this coming spring.......if spring ever gets here. Your thoughts and photos are helpful. GH, I appreciate you taking the time to comment, and I get what you are saying. I think I ride pretty well, or maybe the horses all perform at a high level in spite of me.......could be..........no offense meant or taken, I understand. Bulk, as I am defining it is referring to the amount of leather between me and the horse's sides from the thigh just above the knee down........or maybe better said, the percieved bulk there. Thanks for your thoughts. Back to the shop to work these ideas into my plate rig pattern.

Thanks Bruce. I spent many years running cow outfits, in addition to training horses. My cowpunching saddles have usually had plate rigs for the added strength and stability, and my saddles I use for performance horse training have always had D rigs. I have always felt like a plate rig was a better rigging, but all of them I have had were pretty bulky under the leg. I think what you pointed out about having some substantial drop below the skirts ( or lack thereof) has been the problem. What I have built thus far has been D rigs, and I have only limited experience repairing flat plates. I am currently building a saddle that will be a multi purpose wood............cowpunching, some performance horse schooling, and ranch horse competition. I am going to try a plate rig on it, and appreciate your thoughts, and those of any others, that will help me keep the bulk down. Thanks again.

Been quite a bit of discussion about riggin types and positions lately, which is how it usually is when saddle makers and cowboys get together..........especially coming from widely varying cattle cultures and geographies. It's been great reading. One of the draw backs, at least from my experience, with a flat plate rigging is the additional leather under the leg......although I have always appreciated the more even pull on the bars and stability they afford. I would like to hear other's thoughts on the construction of the plate itself, as well as skirts, etc...............methods you have found helpful to minimize the extra bulk associated with a flat plate rigging. Thanks in advance.

Hi Rod and Denise................no, I and most all trainers who have trained cutters / cowhorses (any performance horse actually) at a high level understand that a proper fitting tree will set on a horses back properly, and rigging position shouldn't change that, unless the tree doesn't fit. D riggings and sometimes a skirt rig, along with 1/2 stirrup leathers, are the choice for performance saddles because of less leather under your leg. It is difficult to have a traditional D rig any further back than 7/8 without restricting forward leg swing. Also, generally speaking the type of quarter horse that we ride generally get along best with the 7/8 to full position. Of the 100 or so horses I worked with this past year alone, there were a few maybe that a 3/4 or 5/8 position would work well on. Again, speaking in generality, the horses we raise and ride are much more Texas steeldust true Quarter type, rather than the horses of the northern and western variety showing more TB influence. I have no intention of creating controversy, but the reason that the 7/8 to full position rigs are by far the most widely used and popular in the southern plains is because that is what works for the horse type and work done. Best Regards.

As a long time trainer of cutting and reined cowhorses, I agree with the advice that Bruce gave. 7/8 rig position is as far back as you would want to go, either D ring or inskirt.........probably closer to the full position. I would also suggest that you use a rigging D hobble strap with a "thmb" upsweep on the front D to make sure that stirrup leathers can slide over the D. 2 1/2" stirrups leathers, half leather fashion are the normal for all performance saddles as well.

Thanks fellers.

I sure agree with Ashley. Before I built my first complete saddle, I had spent 30 years making my living horseback, 15 years making tack and chaps, plus doing saddle repairs. I had also spent a winter working in a saddle shop. While studying and preparing to build that first saddle, I purchased videos from Jeremiah Watt and Bruce Cheney.......and the Stohlman series of books. I found all helpful, but probably the Watt videos and the Stohlman books the most. Good pointers here as well, and I got helpful ideas visiting with established makers, like Ashley. My advice is to save and/or find the money to buy the Watt dvds and Stohlman books. There's 5 cents worth, adjusted for inflation.

Thanks GH. No, I was not talking about a half seat, but rather a full seat with loop as you surmised.I appreciate your time to reply, and would appreciate any others.

I started a saddle today that will have a loop seat, which I've not done before. I have taken apart a couple doing repairs. Any advice on this, before a fella gets to the point of cutting into a perfectly good seat? Anything different need to be done on the groundwork? all suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

Jon, I have met Luke a couple of times, and competed with / against him at the World show. Good hand. I would like to visit with you about your trees. You can message me through this board with your contact info if you care to do so. Thanks.

As I mentioned in another thread, I just finished building on a Ray Lewis fiberglass encased tree. This was a nice tree, and smooth. I had no real issues driving a nail, except in a real tight spot, where I would start a small hole with a spike. No problem using nails blocking skirts, etc. I did pre drill holes where ever I put a screw. The strainer is glassed in on these trees, but I found no draw back with that either, as the strainer has a good basic shape to it, and I put my ground work on it just as you would with a tin strainer. These Lewis trees are not cheapies, nor extreme high end cost either...........around $300 delivered. I have 2 more of these trees to build on, and frankly, I like them........both from the vantage point as a builder and horseman. I don't have any experience with other maker's glassed trees.

Interesting thoughts and experiences from everyone. I always appreciate folks like Rod and Denise who are high quality tree makers, taking time to post their thoughts. I will be finishing up a saddle this weekend that I built on a tree from Ray Lewis, Hereford Texas. These trees are very popular with ranch cowboys and the saddle makers who build for them here in the southern plains states. This tree is wood, fiberglassed. This was my first experience working with a fiberglassed tree. I will say that the tree in the wood alone is a nice tree, whether it had been glassed or rawhided. I didn't find anything really much different working on this glassed tree, except driving a nail or putting in a screw in a tight place, such as the skirt in the corner of the hand hole. In those tight places it is best to pre drill a hole. The strainer is also glassed in, which I didn't find a draw back to. The strainer had a good basic shape to it to begin with. Any way this has been my experience. These trees are priced around $300 delivered........ above say what a Bowden or Timberline is...........but a little below what a tree from Sonny Felcons is.

After 30 years of full time cowboyin, ranchin, and training horses........I too, have been my fair share of storms. I did put a rope type nightlatch on one of my wades one time. Did me no good, personally. Heck when a storm was brewing, reaching for that nightlatch was the last thing I needed to do. Hard to find it, and dropping my shoulders forward fishing for it was counter productive for sure. I think it was on that saddle for about 1/2 day. I will grab leather, but it is usually not grabbing, it is pushing back with the palm of my hand on the horn. Even though I have started a large number of colts, I never was a good bronc rider...........I have always done my best to keep one from feeling like they need to pitch. Not always successful, for sure. "If you see your stirrups slap together above the horn, you're probably bucked off". Dave Stamey.

Firstly, I would like to say Thank You to all who post to this forum. The wealth of information available here and shared here is remarkable. As just a bit of background........I have been a ranch cowboy, foreman, and independant rancher / horse trainer for nearly 30 years. Currently, I would suppose that professional horseman would be the most appropriate label to stick on me. I have been doing saddle repairs major and minor, as well as making small items such as headstalls, cinchas, etc for about 17 years. I am currently in the begining stages of making my first 2 complete saddles. My question is......and I do have one.........regarding rigging hardware placement. In re-rigging or repairing riggins on saddles with a folded over style D rigging, usually full or 15/16 position, I have always installed the rigging D with a very slight tilt toward the rear of the saddle. The idea being that with a little use, stretch, etc., then the rigging D would be hanging straight down. I learned this from observing the installation of riggings on quality Texas makers I admire. However, in watching J Watt's dvd set, I notice that he has the rigging hardware tilted slightly toward the front of the saddle when he installs in to the plate rigging. He does not address the reason as to why, and I am sure there is a good reason. I have not built or replaced a plate rigging, but plan to do so in the not to distant future. I would appreciate you folks enlightening me. Many Thanks.

Does anyone have experience building on trees from Lewis Tree Co, Hereford TX? If so, I would appreciate your thoughts on them. Thanks.