Denise

All something like this can do is tell you about higher levels of pressure, not what those levels really are. There will be changes unless everything has 100% the same pressure 100% of the time, which is never true. I imagine the levels of indentation can tell you how uneven it is, but it doesn't tell you if it is enough to cause problems or not. Even then, it is still a yes/no type of thing. It doesn't tell you WHY that is happening, nor if it is significant or not, nor what to do to fix it. So you can go out and say "your saddle really has pressure points", but then what? "Buy one of mine? I have a truckload here to try out?" That is what a lot of these things are used for - selling saddles. There are a lot more sophisticated systems out there for a lot more money that still do the same thing. For a lot of people these systems are simply a sales gimmick. The person using them still needs to understand the why and have the ability to change it correctly.

Natalie, If you take a bit of time and check through the threads in the Choosing the Right Saddle for the Horse section and the Saddle Supplies, Tools and Trees section there is a bunch of information (especially in the 2007/2008 threads) on fitting and what people look for. Whatever system you decide you want to use, you need to work with a tree maker who is familiar with and willing to work with that system. Some, like the Steele set, are specific for their trees. As I am sure you are aware, you can't extrapolate "sizes", however they are used, from one tree maker to another. Dennis Lane is the Australian tree and saddle maker who has come up with the Equine Back Profiling System. He is a member here under his own name and here is a link to a thread about the system. http://leatherworker...?showtopic=8000 His website is www.dennislane.com.au Here is a link to what some saddle makers said on a previous thread about the flexible bars. http://leatherworker...?showtopic=4947

We use a red pen to circle anything on an order that varies from what we offer as usual specs. Some orders have a lot of red on them! I remember one order I just circled the whole page. It was easier. Even then some things get missed and parts need to be remarked, but the different color sure helps us notice that something needs to be checked more carefully.

Sometimes it is a question of "If I don't laugh, I'll cry." The silly questions usually come from sheer lack of knowledge, and it can be a good time to educate your customer a little,if they are the type that can and will learn something. But I agree that for some we are wasting our breath. I guess in that case, we give the explanation for ourselves, to know we have done everything we could for the customer, rather than the customer's benefit. OK. Now I want to hear what silly questions or comments people have heard from customers. That might be entertaining...

Very nice saddle, Jon, as usual. May I ask - what wood are you using in these lightweight trees?

Brent, Some pictures are here and sounds like there will be more to come. http://leatherworker...=0entry126244 PS. Nice saddle!

Steve, Thanks for taking the time to do this! Seeing pictures like this makes all the difference to understanding. I'm curious now to read if others have variations on your method. Seems the groundseat could be something every saddle maker does differently...

I have heard that the first air panel was actually patented in the 1800's. The fact that this isn't commonly known tells you a lot about how successful they were and how well they must have worked back then. From what I know, nothing much has changed...

Did anyone take pictures they could post? Love to see some of those saddles!

You definitely need more postage than normal to go out of country. From Canada, we have three rates: in country, to the US and then every other international country. Your Canadian (I won't speak for anyone else) customers are allowed to write you a normal cheque but put "US dollars" on it - but their bank at least will charge an arm and a leg to do that. The best way we have found is to send money orders (the US equivalent is the cashier's cheque) in US funds. There is a fee for that and the banks can charge whatever they want as an exchange rate, but as far as we know it is the least expensive way. We can use our credit cards for purchasing in US dollars, but the companies not only use their own exchange rate (considerably higher than a bank) but also add an extra fee for it. I don't know about Paypal. (The "money lenders" still have you coming and going. If I put $100.00 US into our Canadian account, and then need a $100.00 US money order, I only have $95.00 US left. The difference in and out is almost 5%. On larger items, that sure adds up! And I am sure credit cards, etc. are higher rates than that.) Your best bet is to ask to be paid in US dollars and let them figure it out. US dollars are probably the easiest currency in the world to change money into and the banks are pretty used to doing that. Shipping - go post office as much as you can. Any of the courier companies have a brokerage fee to cross the border and so your customer will be dinged $25 to $30 (not totally sure on the amount, but in that ballpark) on their end to receive something that would come with no fee through the post office. If they are not expecting that, it could lead to poor relations. Canada/US mail is pretty good, especially if you insure it, and the insurance carries over between these two countries at least.

Looks good Tom. For someone like me on dial up, the fact that it loads so quickly is a major plus. You can still see the pictures but without the half hour wait.

Slightly different look but same great people. Glad you have you back, Chris!

Gabrielle, I e-mailed Dennis and his co-worker on the system, David A Morris directly this afternoon and have received a reply that whatever the problem was, it has apparently been cleared now. So try again and you should be able to get through.

Gabrielle, If you look under the Choosing the Right Saddle for the Horse section plus the one in the Saddery section that includes saddle trees, you will find lots of discussions of fit, especially in the 2007 and early 2008 period. How is a saddle supposed to fit? There are probably as many answers to that question as there are people to answer it, but there are some basics that almost everyone agrees on. Here are some threads to get you started. (I'll warn you that sometimes the discussion gets a little heated in places. Just goes to show you how important this topic is to the people who make their living building trees and saddles.) http://leatherworker...showtopic=18445 http://leatherworker...?showtopic=2760 http://leatherworker...&st=0#entry4976 Some are related to specific horses, but if you read them you will see the common areas that need to be considered when fitting a saddle. PS. The construction and trees in English and traditional Aussie saddles are completely different than Western trees, which is what is under discussion in these topics. However, the same basic principles apply, so they should still be of some help to you.

Lula, Here is a link to an old topic where some saddle makers put together a list of what they figured was needed. http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=8468 Under the Tools section here there are threads by European member about where they buy some things. I know it is more difficult than in North America. I don't know of a European place to order trees. I think most come from North America. Don101 and oldtimer are members here who build saddles in Europe. Maybe they will be able to help you source things. There is a fair amount of discussion in the Choosing the Right Saddle for the Horse section on fitting, particularly in the older threads from 07 and earlier 08. And then - ask specific questions! All the best and have fun!

A quote from a book by Major Francis Dwyer, published in 1869: “It must be confessed, indeed, that is most usually a very thankless office to offer any man that rides anything like advice, however well meant and sound, on anything concerning his horse, bridle, saddle or seat. The great majority would much more patiently tolerate very decided expressions of doubt as to their mental or moral qualifications, if only conveyed with a certain amount of tact, than the slightest imputation of want of knowledge or skill in things pertaining to horsemanship.” Some things never change I guess...

An example! Thanks for explaining your thoughts, Curb.

Congratulations! You never know. And if your work has the quality and you can explain why yours are as good as they are, then maybe it will happen more often! Have fun making 24 belts!!

Curb, Are you looking at these at riding saddles for yourself? I sure can't help you with the brands, but one thing I would recommend is to take a close look at the seat in them if they have a good side view. Where does it put you in the saddle compared to where the stirrups are? That first one was a slide all the way from the front to inside the cantle. You couldn't possibly sit anywhere except at the far back of that seat with your legs out in front of you. Different people have difference preferences as to how they like to sit, but a seat like that puts a lot of weight far back on a horse and makes it difficult for you to "get with him" as he moves. Not to mention it is tough on the horse to be carrying you there. Ideally, I would see the low spot (where your pin bones will rest) as being a little in front of the cantle with enough room for the rest of you around that spot. What happens in front of the spot doesn't matter (flat or rise) so long as there is enough room for you in that "pocket". Just some observations. Other's thoughts may vary...

Cord, Here is a thread about building (or not building) on flexible barred trees. I can't seem to get the cut and paste to work tonight. Type "rubber bars" into the search box up top on the right and you will get a topic from a year ago called Saddle Tree that talks about flexible bars.

Here's an old thread with a neat tip on how to get rid of the old stitches more simply than you would have thought. It doesn't seem to want to take my cut and paste, so if this doesn't work, just search "picking stitches" and you will find a topic "not relishing the hours picking stitches" or something like that. That's the one you want.

Barra, welcome to the madhouse moderating crew. Glad to have your expertise formally available to all the members here. It is appreciated!

I just wanted to clarify that I am not saying Arabs don't have one less vertebra. (I wonder how many of the "other breeds" in that study were Arabs to have such a high percentage with only 5 lumbar vertebrae?) There are just so many things that "everyone knows" because they "heard it somewhere" that may or may not be true. Just because something is stated by someone with letters behind their name or with a big reputation doesn't mean the information they give is correct. And my skeptical self always wants the data behind the "fact" to prove it to me because some of the "facts" are not correct when you actually search for the truth behind them. This is a question I have had for over 20 years and I have yet to find any solid data. It may very well be out there, and I would sure like to see it if it is. The more people I ask, the greater the chance I have of learning, and this forum has a pile of people reading it who may have the answer.

I've heard this stated as fact for years and, being the sceptical, "prove it to me" type person I tend to be, I would be curious if anyone knows of any documented evidence of the true incidence of this in a large population of Arabs (and non-Arabs for that matter). What I have been able to find comes from Sisson's and Grossman's The Anatomy of the Domestic Animals volume I. It seems that variable number of vertebrae are uncommon but not really rare. Cervical always seem to be 7 in number, but while thoracic are generally 18, "there are sometimes 19, rarely 17" (pg. 260). "The occurance of a nineteeth rib-bearing vertebra is not at all uncommon. In such cases there may be only five typical lumbar vertebrae." (pg. 262) "The lumbar vertebrae are usually six in number in the horse; however, five lumbar vertebrae have also been reported in the domestic horse, donkey, Arabian horse, Przewalski horse, ass and mule." (pg 262) "The sacrum is usually formed by the fusion of five vertebrae... However, the number of vertebrae in the sacrum of the domestic horse, Przewalski horse, and Shetland pony has also sometimes been listed as four or six. In the case of the mule and ass, both six and seven sacral vertebrae have been reported." (pg. 263) Reference information for the studies quoted are included in the book. However, there is no indication of the incidence of such anomalies. I also have an article from Australia, from the Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation, Publication number 07/118 entitled Back Pain in Horses. It was a study involving 120 horse cadavers - 65 Thoroughbreds, 24 Standardbreds and 31 "other breeds" not defined further. They were looking at not only the bones but also the muscles of the back. They found 8% of the Thoroughbreds, 16% of the "others" and 0% of the Standardbreds had only 5 lumbar vertebrae but the normal 5 sacral vertebrae. (But no one seems to think that 8% of Thoroughbreds have "short backs" as a result.) They also found that in horses with normal numbers of vertebrae, the conformation and place of maximal movement were abnormal in 32% of the Thoroughbreds, 29% of the others and 0% of the Standardbreds. So they found only 67% of the horses they checked to be "normal" (60% of Thoroughbreds, 55% of "others" and 100% of Standardbreds). With the differences between Standardbreds and Thoroughbreds being so dramatic, it makes sense that there must be some genetic component involved. Does anyone know of documented studies involving Arabs? I guess that would depend on which saddles you were measuring.

I'll leave that one up to Johanna. I'm scanner impaired also...