grumpyguy

Hey Ryan, great idea with the fence stretcher but what really impressed me was the swivel you fabricated, at least I am assuming you did it. My question is how well is it working out for you? If slippage ever becomes a problem there are some fixes I had thought of incorporating on my own rig, spherical washer sets allow you to tighten the nuts down much tighter with less mauling by standard nuts and washers They can be found at Machinist supply shops and were designed to snug down work pieces on milling tables. They come in sets, top and bottom and go on under the nut, having worked in machine shops as a kid I have seen them tightened down so much the threads on Grade eight bolts were deformed, yet came loose fairly easily with just a wrench. Only other thing I could suggest is to make a very slight bend up on your flat plat to help the plate get a bite on the teeth.

LeatherCaptain, I happened to stumble across this and thought I'd go ahead and add to this thread. Joe from RCSaddles has it right, you want 4, 1/4" strands of rawhide, no core and you don't want just any rawhide. The reata men all try to get a hide from an old cow due to the fact that it would be a little tougher, thicker and will have a nice lay when broken in. Bruce Grants book shows and describes the process well. He advocates rope/sash cord for braided leather reins but not for a rawhide reata. I know a braider who buys a number of hides and then as he cuts them into string he will determine those good enough for reatas and then those that don't make the grade (and the portions of hide not suited) he cuts finer string and makes reins, romals and bosels. He makes really nice stuff, but his focus is making reatas. Hope this helps and is not too late for you. Grumpy guy

Nice Art, Do the snaps on your closing straps work well, I have used buckles in the past and they work real good, a bit of a pain when trying to get in them though. I had considered snaps but was afraid they wouldn,t stay snapped in the brush. Nice job on the bags!

Hi all, I'm trying to figure out what kind, brands, or mix ratios hardener to resin to use for fiberglassing a cutting saddle tree. Any help with this info. would be greatly appreciated as I know very little about glass covered trees. (Old or maybe just old fashioned guy that still likes rawhide on trees, but coming around to giving something "new" a try.) I bought the thing cheap from a cutting horse trainer friend who paid good money to have it made but lost intrest in the project. It's made from southern yellow pine and has been constantly moved from one place to another for nearly fifteen years. (Le'me guess thinkin' pack rat might be coming to mind now, right?) I thought of tossing it but got to thinking I'd seen some nice custom ranch cutters on this forum, so next I thought "Almost like a free tree, Oh why not give it a go." The wood is solid and there are no cracks or other damage/blemishes that would be of concern. I plan to get a horn from Boise Foundry for it, as they show one on thier site that'll fill the bill. I'll make the strainer from 20 gauge galv., sheet that I was also going to toss too, but now plan to use. Thanks in advance for your suggestions and comments. Grumpy Guy

Unfortunate accident for sure. But I, for one, will refrain from saying anything derogitory about the poor victim. True it's not wise to wrestle around with a knife strapped to you. I once had a knife come out the side of a commercially produce sheath. I had finished skinning a bear that a friend had harvested and tagged. I simply placed the knife back in it's sheath and pushed it down. The friend pointed out the mishap as I stoodup prepareing to help haul the animal out of the woods. The blade which was very sharp had gone through the outside of the sheath and was exposed, sticking out ready to slice what ever got too close. The leather was about 10oz. latigo and was sold with the knife when I bought it. Constructed with a nice heavy welt by the way. Only thing I could figure was that some how it caught on the leather and I did not look but just pushed it in as I had done many times before. This time it apparantly came out the side of the sheath exposing about three inches of bare and very sharp blade. I used to carry that knife while on horseback. No more, I only carry folding knives when engaged in more physical activities where there is a risk of falling or having something fall on me. Truth is we cut leather all the time (so we should know how easy a knife can cut though leather) and really if enough force is applied to a knife handle it can cut though our best heavy leather sheath. A fall could easily provide enough force, so this should make us all think twice when wearing/handling cutlery. Incidently I had a butcher friend who sliced his arm when his 10" steak knife pierced out the front of his metal scabbard and he did not see it. Unfortunately our world has changed, reason often doesn't win out in the beginning or the end.

I don't want to sound like a "know it all," because really I don't. While it is possible it could be from South America there is another possibility, as Denise mentioned there are a number of calvary saddles beside the Mc Clellan. Your saddle definately has some cavalry style stirrups. During the era prior to the Civil War period as well as some time after, there was a popularity in what was known as "Plantation" or also known as "Gentelman's saddles." Many old pictures of particularly southern mounted units will show there was not much standardization in horse equipment used. Added to that officers often would use what they preferred over the issued gear. (Both North and South.) Your saddle does not appear to be that old, or has recieved exceptional care. The narrow bars would tend to make me think it is either an older saddle or for other breeds of horses than are commonly found in the states today. One tree that was commonly used in these types were called "Jennifer" patterns. They were made purely for riding and were not designed as a working rig. (Standardbreds and some walking type horses were and are shown in more of this type of saddle, they are typiaclly narrower than Quarter type horses. Might be interesting to check into that as well.) These trees are somewhat weaker in design than western working saddles. Some tree makers still make and sell them. (I've seen the tree advertized in the printed Ritter Saddle tree catalog from 1990.) Without a careful inspection of the saddle and tree it is not possible to even guess, but it does look similar. You might be right about the rigging as this was a common rigging for these types of saddles. (Also noted are the lack of hardware for attaching cavalry type gear.)

5 to 7 oz. latigo should work well, the same as for heavier weight saddle strings. Others could be used but I think latigo would be the best choice.

Wow, you guys have done your homework. Thanks for offering the help here with the info. I started out just wanting to help ct here and decided to try it myself. As a youngster I made some laminated wooden skis and bent some ash for various progects. I found in making jigs that supporting the laminates all the way around the curves is crictical in preventing the splitting. Attention to the grain is also very important as you've already said. Thankyou Greg and Ben. I hope this helps you ct.

ct701996, I build custom bits and spurs, along with some saddlery. I have not tried to cover stirups, but after reading your question I got to thinkin' why not. Here's how I'd go about it. I'd do just like jman said. The only thing I might do different is I'd use white oak because it's more resistant to rot than red oak. It's a little harder to find but boat builders will use nothing else. I'd find the best weather proof finish that will stand up to water and finish them after bending and gluing them together. I'd probably go with brass as it would be easier to work with, nickel would work too, but cost a little more and is somewhat harder to get. Something like 20 or 22 ga. sheet slightly longer than the outside length of your stirups. Your also going to need a bunch of small brass nails and the appropriate sized drill. (Make sure they are brass and not brass plated or you'll get rust as your plating wears off.) Next I'd make a cardstock pattern and allow about an eighth inch or three sixtenths extra all the way around the edges. I'd then cut out the brass and wrap it around the stirup and clamp them in place with some C clamps, using scrap leather to keep from scratching the metal. Drill all the pilot holes every so often and then nail the metal down. Try to place them evenly as possible so it looks good and try not to dimple them too much, flush with the surface of the metal would be good. Pull off the clamps and with smooth jawed set of pliers bend the extra edges slightly over all the way around all the sides. (I make smooth jawed pliers from cheap pliers often found in the sale bin at hardware stores, I carefully grind the teeth out of the end of the pliers and smooth them out. (This takes care and a steady hand.) Smooth jawed blacksmith pliers will work great but you don't see those around much.) Go back and gently tap around the edges until the edges are down against the wood, my choice for this would be a light brass hammer. Try tapping them down a little at a time all the way around to minimizing streching the metal out too much. Keep going around until all is flat with the wood all the way around. Some fine sand paper might be needed to sand out any dings left on the edges. Start with 320 or 400 grit and finsh with 800 grit. A little silver polish with a soft cloth will blend the edges into the smooth shiney finish of the metal. Brass and nickel silver can be obtained through a jewelers supply outfit. I get mine through Santa Fe Jeweler's Supply, they have a web site and have been good to order from. Sterling silver and fine silver is expensive and I'd avoid that on stirups made for everyday use as it does not do well with getting damp and is softer, scratching very easily. As we all know stirups tend to take a beating on and off the horse. Thing is I want to encourage you to give it a try. All of us older folks are always telling kids what they should or should not try. I wish someone had taken enough intrest to help me learn about the things I was interested in at sixteen. If making cowboy and buckaroo gear is what you want to do you could certainly do alot worse. Good luck and post your results. Who knows you might find you're good at it and you can make and sell custom stirups to all your buckaroo friends. If you come up with questions give a yell. I will probably give this a try too, I'm planning a saddle for my daughter and this might give it that extra kick, and I'd be able to say I did it myself! I'm thinking of making them with contrasting initials and engraved trim, I've already started on her horn cap and cantel plate. Her tree is also in the works, bars and cantel are glued up, it'll be a 15 1/2" wade.

Curbstrap, I have had similar experience, I foolishly stored a saddle in the basment which occasionally leaked. I found part of my saddle with a light coating of mold from the dampness. I just used saddle soap alot of elbow grease and then set the saddle in front of the fireplace for a couple of days. When fully warm and dry, I used neatsfoot oil on it. This was about four or so years ago. I since have taken care to see that it is stored in drier conditions. Today you would not even be able to tell. I have friend who left a saddle in a trailer for a month and had the same problem, he discovered his mistake and used saddle soap and then Leathernew. His came out okay too. It happens but we usually learn from those mistakes.

Old timer, I personally would avoid the lacing on the seat portion on any thing you intend to ride for any length of time at all. I have been south of the boarder and once spent an afternoon riding a rented rig and horse. The fit for the horse was not good and even worse for me. Long story short the lacing on the mochilla on the rig I rode wore a hole in my hide. Needless to say I provided much entertainment for the Mexican horse wranglers. Keep the seat as smooth and trouble free as possible! Hidemechanic has you on the right track, casing the leather properly will do alot for getting it to lay right. Any excessivly stiff area could be skived some to help it lay right too. Just like making a seat on a modern saddle, I would put the heavier stiffer end toward the forks and the lighter more supple leather to the rear of the cantle, which is where I'd anticipate having the problem with how it laid out. If you have to splice to get a big enough piece, I'd recommend splicing behind the cantel and stiching your bags over the top to hide the stiched splice. Just a thought as I have not made one of these myself. Incidently I like to ride alot and have never found any enjoyment in riding the older style saddles when riding long distances my few experiences were somewhat painful in the end if you can gather what I mean. I like a smooth, full, unpadded seat, on a modern styled seat, I guess the old time waddies had a much stiffer constution than I. Good luck I hope your project goes well, can't wait to see the outcome.

randyo7, Several months ago there was a thread on this topic, I'm sure if you check through the saddlery topics you can find it. It really is not possible to comeup with reasonable value for your saddle with the information you have provided. First off Billy Cook saddles were made by more than one maker. Those that seem to retain the most value are maked "Billy Cook Saddlery, Sulpher Springs, OK." These are manufactured by the Billy Cook Saddlery company, owned by Billy Cook himself. There are a number of models and types built by the Billy Cook Saddlery and others under that name. They make cutting, roping reining, barrel racing saddles to name just a few. The best way to get an accurate amount would be to contact saddlery dealers (preferably that deal in used as well as new saddlery) in your area and have them inspect your particular saddle. Getting a few quotes will help you get a better idea of what it's real value is. Area is important as local preferences can strongly affect the value.

Very, nice job Annie! Looks better than my first headstall! Just to give you an idea, look at some made for Western Horse shows. One place to visit online is highcountrycowboy.com among several others. They have some stuff similar to what you've made and they get pretty nice prices for them too. Keep at it you're off to a good start. I also like the way the bit attaches. That's a nice feature, especially if you might be changing bits fairly often. Regards, Grumpy

Very, very nice JW! I like the hidden stiched back cantel! This is the first one I've seen though I have heard mention of it before. Is it very difficult to do?

I like 100% wool felt pads as well. I am curious, is the hair breaking off or is it thinning, possibly falling out. I am not familiar with the pad you describe other than seeing ad's in magazines. I know pad makers will make claims of the supriority of their products against all the others. I tend to stay with natural fiber pads made from wool. They have always served their purpose well. Pads are easily contaminated by dirt, grime and fungus. Especially if you use your gear on multiple horses or loan out gear to friends. (Most of us will do that from time to time.) I clean my pads often with a metal curry to remove hair, salt and grime left by previous use. I do this every time I notice any grime clinging to the pad. I also take time to inspect every inch of my mounts back and girth while brushing and preparing to saddle. (I expect you likely do this as well.) I wash out my pads and saddle blankets with water at least once or twice a year depending on use. (sometimes more often.) I am also careful to allow pads to dry thoroughly before using. (Damp pads will encourage fungus to grow and spread.) Make sure your pads lay open to circulating air. (meaning the side that is against your horse is facing up.) I learned this from a friend who rode often and didn't keep his pads very clean. He rode different horses with his gear. One of his horses started to lose the hair on his back. He washed the back and checked for sores. He changed pads as he thought the horse might have a sensitvity to the pad he was using. He watched and the condition did not improve. He ended up calling his vet which determined the horse had been infected with a fungus. Vet described it as similar to athlete's foot people get. vet gave him a name of a medicated shampoo. The horse recovered quickly and the hair grew back. He replaced the wool pad with a new one and had no more problem. After that he took care to let his pads dry. He had often piled them on a blanket or pad rack in his tack room. He thought the fungus was encoraged by sweaty damp pads and blankets not drying thoroughly. He has never had the problem reoccur. He thought the problem might have been spread to his horse from riding a horse at a stable that was for sale about a month prior. I'd advise maybe trying some of the medicated shampoos available at feed stores, if that does not help then call your vet. You could try a new pad but if it is a fungus then you'll just spend money on a new pad that will have to be disposed of because it became contaminated. I have also seen geldings lose hair due to sheath infections. If you are not experienced with cleaning your gelding's sheath you should find some one who is and knows what to look for. If you find an infection you might need a vet to treat it and show you what follow up treatment he will want you to do. Hair falling out can be caused by very minor fungal problem, allergies or be a symptom of more serious health contitions inside the animal. If it can not be corrected quickly you need to call your vet. I hope this is helpful and you and your gelding find the souce of the problem. Regards and Merry Christmas, Grumpy Guy

Thanks Butch, about five years ago those boots were a brand new pair of Hawthorne Cowboy boots. (Made by Whites.) I've owned two pair so far, the 10" packer and these. Best boots I've ever owned. As you see they did get some use. Thanks again for the comment.

"Fineredmist," After reading your first post again it occurred to me you might not intend to use the saddle bags as saddle bags are normally used. If that is the case then you just want a generic saddle bag set. Tandys has a nice pattern pack that would work very well for your pourpose. If you don't have a Tandy's store near you, you can find the online store at "tandyleatherfactory.com" the pattern pack item#61917-00 sells for $14.99. There is also another pattern they sell a little cheaper and a book on making custom saddle bags that sells in the same price range of the pattern pack. Hope we've helped some, if you get started in the project and need any help, holler out people here will help all they can.

I made these a few years back. At the time I was building a set of spurs and wanted some nice straps to go on them. I had gotten the idea to make these after looking at a book of old cowboy gear. I made the pattern for the bib and straps from a pair of boots I had. I cut the bib and a liner, cased and stamped the bib. Then I cased the liner and placed them on the boot wrapped a turn or two of twine arond them and let them dry, molded to the shape of the boot. I stitched the bib and liner together and trimmed and finished the edges. I made the strap and put it all together. A few months ago I dug out the old spur project and finished them. Need to replace the stamped conchos with something nicer.

Generally saddle bags come in two types, the first and most widely seen are the bags that go on the rear joceks of the saddle behind the cantel. Second are the pommel style bags that fit over the horn and rest on the swells of the saddle. These are quite accessable and as long as your not roping these are great for trail riding. Both bags are easily made and can be custom made and fitted to your saddle, making them more secure and useful and less of a pain. First off figure out what you will likely carry and where you want to put it on your saddle. Heavier items should go in the pommel bags on the front of your saddle. I have used a number of saddle bags over the years and found the run of the mill generic patterns caused me alot of frustrtion. They would slide around because of poor fit. I am going to go over the making of a pattern to custom fit your saddle. Lighter but bulkier items can go on the back saddle bags or pockets. But remember the back of the saddle sits over your mount's kidneys so it is not recommended that heavy items be carried there. I would tend to limit the rear saddle bags to less than 10" x 10" with a three or four inch finished gusset. (I actually preffer slightly smaller.) The connecting leather between the bags should be shaped to tightly fit against the back of your cantel. This can be done using light cardboard, pasteboard, the white art boards or heavy brown paper to mark and cut the pattern. 1. Find the center and measure the location of the tops and bottoms of the bags for both sides. Choose the location of the bags. Some times sitting in the saddle and getting someone to measure for you will help to insure the bags will be out of the way when riding. (Do not use the saddle strings as they are often times a little off and will not match from side to side on the same saddle.) 2. Rough cut the arc of the back of the cantel and then test fit and trim the pattern as needed till you have a good fit. (the tighter it fits the less it will shift on the trail.) 3. Carefully mark out the location of the saddle strings and conchos. Cut the holes to fit closely to the concho edges, This will also help keep the bags in place when on the trail. Often times here you will notice the conchos are not in the exact same spots on alot of saddles, so this works well rather than measuring one side then olny to find the other side is different when you try the pattern on the saddle. Variance can be as much as a half inch difference in any direction on some saddles. 4. locate the best location to place hold down strap to secure the fron of the bag to your saddle. I designing the bag you can pretty much make simple bags with squared or rounded bottoms. Another good feature is to use a thinner more flexible leather for the gussets. When cutting ot lenghth, allow enough to let the gusset extend up from the top of the bag on both sides. These extensions will fold over the top under the lid when it is strapped shut. This will keep more dirt and trail debris out and your stuff in the bag where it is supposed to stay. I favor round bottoms as they are easy to clean out dirt and debris. Other's like the square bottoms better as the load does not end up piled in the center of the suare bags. Especially if your carring sandwiches or other soft food items. (No problem as long as you don't mind your lunch turning to mush. Forget the crackers they will be powder no matter what you do.) If you decide on say four inch gussets remember you will need at least a half inch on both side to stich the back and front of your bags to. Here is and example of what you will come up with, but your design fitted for your saddle.

You bring up an interesting point, I recall when a thigh bruise was just an inconveinence. Always went on like nothing happened. (When everyone was looking anyway.) But now being older everything inside and out hurts after the pitching starts even when you manage to keep your seat. (still try to show no weakness but it is harder than it used to be, LOL) Last time I had one of those bruises, (I'm assuming you mean one of those bruises on the inside of the thigh from being slammed forward and catching the swell under and inside your thigh muscle) it was tender for a couple of weeks, the nice blue and then green color lasted for a month or so, maybe more. I certainly see what you mean about bucking rolls being more forgiving. I also like the woodpost horns better too, lots easier to let the rope slip some if needed. Around here there are quite a few of the modified association trees with woodpost. Wades are seen in the cow camps but I have not seen alot of them, seem to see more with the trail riding crowd around here. The local pack stations all use swell forked saddles and no wades/slick forks at all, seems they are of the opinion wades/slick forks are less than safe. (I understand thier theory but I don't put alot of stock in it, although they do put alot of hours in the saddle. The same guys will absolutely will not consider a decker rig for a pack saddle either, even with some of what I think are obvious advantages.) Funny how we develop likes and dislikes and stick to them so strongly. That's one thing I like about this forum, is seeing other opinions and points of view. Everyone here seem's to weigh thier options pretty carefully before arriving at set in stone decisions. It is a great place to learn, see new things and see the creativity of others.

Hi everyone, I, like Hidepounder will always use a back cinch on my rigs. I know a flank cinch, breast collar or crupper is not always needed and most people who ride trails, gentle terrain and roadways will never miss them. Those who handle cattle and know what they are doing may get along fine without any of the afore mentioned items. I must follow that up with, when I've been on week or longer gathers in the mountains and I will ride several different horses. Rides of ten to thirty miles in a day might be needed depending on terrain. When you first arrive at camp the mounts are fat and sassy. The way we all like 'em. Plenty of gas and go to get ahead and catch the cows. As the riding progresses all day long, everyday, the backs of the horses begin to change as they lose weight from the calories required to do so much traveling. The horses smooth backs become more musceled and change shape affecting saddle fit. (We always provide plenty of hay to the point of almost waste and suppliment grain morning and evening, or really before daylight and after dark.) It is impossible to keep the weight on with so much work being required and you only have a few weeks to get the cows out before it snows you out, killing any cows left behind. Some years are worse than others and you never know for sure when the weather will turn. I've seen 60 or 70 in the morning a twenty (or possibly less) by evening with inches of snow starting to pile up. Consider also horses sweat as they are worked and it is important to allow them to drink as often as possible. Unfortuately the range may have drier areas where water is not always so accessible. As the horse sweats it loses water, sometimes alot of water before you can get them watered again. The fit of the saddle will change and front and rear cinches must be checked and adjusted often. I've seen both custom and mass produced saddles that were not fitting well after a week of gathering. It's just not possible or realistic expect saddles to fit the same under these, maybe extreame conditions. The dogs will certainly do thier best but let's face it. A cow convinced she won't be caught is not going to stop for a few dogs. So it is needed that someone follow the dogs and stop the cows like this as soon as possible. The guys who I liked to ride for usually tried to keep the cows accustom to being handled and dispose of trouble makers as they were noticed to have developed bad habits. (Letting them get away actually trains the cow to run.) There are always cowmen who can't figure that out and don't have good cows. One in the group will cause all of them to run. I only say this to point out we can not always be in control of the situation all of the time. Slow is fast when it comes to cow hunts, as long as the cows co-operate, and most of the time it works out great. I can think of one instance (out of several memorable experiences) where my partner and I were searching for about ten missing cows a week or two after the main gather. A hunter told us he saw ten cows in a remote canyon located in some of the roughest area of the range. We started snaking through some thick second growth timber down a spur ridge to get into the canyon. A little past half way the ridge became very steep. My partners saddle tipped forward, the pad began working it's way out. I did not see it from behind because I was busy dodging the dead branches to keep from losing an eye. Finally the pad fell out and the saddle tipped forward even more. My partners horse began to buck and he bailed when the saddle started to slip sideways. It was anasty place to have a wreck. He had some nasty scrathes from the dead limbs but came out okay in the end and re-saddled. The horse was not injured and we finished a very difficult ride. We should have been using cruppers but weren't. I have a hard time with people telling others they don't really need the gear designed to keep horse and rider safe. I think it far safer to know what you might need and how to use it properly. In cow camp we often could not depend on the guys with the fanciest saddles and best looking rigs to catch the cows. They usually didn't get up before daylight, had beer for breakfast, several beers in the saddle bags, they stood around wondering what was for dinner and not lift a finger to help fix it. They had opinions on everything and were first to voice them. I am not saying any of you are those type. (I certainly hope not, but if you are I don't know what to tell you.) Just use a little caution. You know the country you ride and the gear you need. Becareful about advising others to take gear off without first knowing where they are riding and what they are doing on a horse before telling them what they do or don't need. (Less experienced riders might listen and endup with tragic results.) I know a flank cinch is not aways needed but in some situations it's alot better to have the right gear aboard than not, particularlly when you start out not knowing for sure what you'll be facing when you leave the truck and trailer. I'll get off my soap box now, it's not my intent to upset anyone and I am not offended by other views. Just making the point that these items were designed with safety in mind and to advise others they will not need them could possibly be contributing to anothers demise. Take care, keep it fun and safe. Thanks for the discussion. Grumpy Guy

I agree Chis, I try to avoid those situations much as possible.

I have to agree with Trooper Chuck, It is important in rough country and helps the saddle from sliding/tipping forward too much when riding down extreamly steep slopes, when properly adjusted. (That will cause you to be bucked off on alot of "bomb proof" horses when they get a shoulder blade pinched under the saddle because it tipped too far forward.) It is added to make riding, safer, more comfortable for rider and horse. On most trails you would never miss it, but venture off into the rough country side and you'll soon see the advanages.

I've ridden in the sierra foothills and high country. Much of it is extreamly steep, brushy and rocky, as long as you stay on trails you can get by with a saddle that fits. I have had to chase cattle out of very difficult terrain in which I would not be caught in without at least a breast collar. A crupper is agood idea in these situations too. I have litterally found myself side-hilling extreamly steep slopes using trees to keep my horse from sliding down the hill. (Maybe some one out here can explain why cows can run across them with seemingly no difficulty but you and your horse can't.) I have used a saddle in such situations only once before without a breast collar. That situation was going well and then due to a chain of events ended in disaster. I ended up with a dislocated shoulder, lost the cows, lost the horse I was riding (which a friend had to go find for me.) I ended up walking about a mile out of a nasty canyon before I could get a ride into town to get my shoulder put back. I had taken my breast collar off when cleaning and oiling my saddle. A rancher friend called up and asked for help. In my haste I did not grab my breast collar, unfortunately it cost me dearly. The second half of this is be sure you know how to properly adjust and fit your gear. Flank cinches should not hang so loose that a horse stepping over an obstical can get a foot though the gap. Breast collars should center in the middle of the horses chest and allow the horse to put his head all the way down so he can eat or drink with no interferance. Adjusted so, there should be no chaffing the horse. If you think breast collars are only for looks and generally an unneccasary item, then you have not been where I have. Anyone who does not use or pay attention to safety equipment during thier riding are asking for trouble.

I like the wade but ride a swell forked saddle, I always have entertained the idea of getting a wade. Cowboys I've ridden with are divided over which they prefer and then there is differing opinons on bucking rolls and nightlatches. The majority here (Sierra foothills) ride swell forks. Arguments over which makes a more secure seat when things go sour seem to go on and on. Wades have no swell and the theory of some seems to be it's hards to sit when the pitchin' starts. I have seen some very classy looking modified assosiation saddles with wood post horns. Many who prefer the wood horns are the crowd that doctor cattle in the pasture, some ride wades and some the swell forks.