grumpyguy

Buffalo, There's a guy who used to advertise this type of pack saddle in his catalog. I believe I found it under "high country cowboy company." If you do a google search it should come up. If I recall right he's out of Gunnison, CO. The saddle has not appeared in the recent catalogs but I bet he could help you find who makes them. Regards, Grumpy Guy

JAM, Who did the drawing on your post? Looks real good! A saddle made from a Visalia 3B or maybe even a Weatherly tree would be real nice. I don't have anything to really add. Bruce is right by what he told you, the centerfire saddle rig has a reputation for not keeping the saddle in place very well. If you'e ever ridden one I think you would be disapointed. Some guys swear by them but I tend to believe it to be a "romanicized notion." I bought one at a yard sale once and slapped it on my horse after testing the fit. (The saddle was older, seen abuse and very narrow but it fit my horse very well who had high and narrow withers. The seat was about fourteen inches in length, too short for me.) That ride wore me out trying to stay on the dang horse. At the end I felt like I'd been beat up. (The movement of the saddle was much rougher than a full rigged roping saddle on the same horse.) I used a standard mohair cincha, breast collar but no crupper, the saddle slid forward when riding down hill and then back into place when going up hill. I had no real problem with side to side due to the good fit on the withers. I could only imagine what it would have been like on a round barreled quarter horse with low, rounder withers such is common today. I never used it again as it turned out to be very uncomfortable for me. Soon after I got rid of the saddle. Now that being said, the Old Califino (By that I mean prior to California becoming a United States possesion.) way was with the single cinch and in what we'd call a three quarter or five eighths rig. Some were also Centerfire rigs. Those fellas were real horsmen as they did not have cars and worked on horse back everyday. They developed a finely tuned balance and the muscles to do it all day. They covered the Southern California coastlands which are steep and are deeply carved with creekbeds, not to mention heavy thickets of brush, searching for cattle. So I'll concede they were much better horsemen than most of us! Well maybe just better than me, I really can't say about everyone else.

Hello all, Denise, No, Kevlar and carbon fiber are different. Kevlar enjoys a reputation for being hard to penetrate hence the use in Military helmets and bullet reistant vest. It can be used in hard resins like the helmet application or it can be woven to make a semi flexible fabric which in many layers will resist puncture by blunt objects moving at several hundred feet per second and stop some projectiles. Sharp or pointed objects under enough force can and will penetrat Kevlar. Kevlar is often times a white, cream or golden colored fiber which sometimes has the appearance similar to woven fiberglass. Meat cutters in high production shops will use kevlar gloves to guard against cutting or slicing themselves while cutting and trimming meat products. Carbon fiber will almost always be used in resin for structural applications where strength with some flexibility might be desired along with weight as a consideration. The areo space and car industry have made use of these materials. Carbon fiber is dark grey or dull black material usually woven like fiberglass. There are other types and uses as well but these are the usual uses and what we normally see. Some fishing rods use a resin with carbon spheres as well as long unwoven fibers. Carbon fiber could be used in a very light weight tree. It would have to be much thinner than wood to get much flexibility out of it. So maybe in a super close contact saddle of very light weight it maybe superior to wood and rawhide. Now that I have said that, I would also say for the purpose of the western saddle, It could be used as a covering of wood. I don't think you would have the flex you would have with rawhide. I'm a traditionalist in that I believe the wood rawhide combination is at this time the best material for western saddle trees as the resin impregnated fibers usually are too stiff for my taste. I have a hard time seeing any benefit to kevlar in a tree. I can only imagine that others will strongly disagree but several hundred years of horsemen can't be ignored. Starting with the ealiest riders, wood and rawhide combination have for centuries been held as the best material for saddle trees. Granted we have more materials availbe to us than those early horsemen. To date I have not seen a material that best the wood and rawhide. Sittinguphigh, Is that wood and rawhide tree a Jennifer style cavalry saddle? (A pattern developed and used by southern saddlers making saddles for Confederate officers during the civil war.) It's fork is too thin to be a Mc Clellan but the bars and cantel resemble that type of saddle. That particular tree design was never known for strength in the first place. A production western tree would not do well under the same abuse but they are considerably stronger. The custom trees are a much different story as the example Rod and Denise show us.

Kelly, Are you referring to a leather cantle bag? Some of the saddle shops sell nail or staple pouches that attach to the saddle strings. I have made one of those before. You can see what I'm talking about on the Smith Bros. website. They sell roping and some ranch saddlry. Peruse thier site and I'm sure you'll come up with ideas for your own project.

JAM, Sounds like you might be looking for something in particular? I've managed to find ideas in some of the different antique shops. I once saw a set of unique batwings which at some point I intend to make my own version. They had pockets but not on the outside of the Chaps like normally seen. This particular pair was well worn (A dollar sized hole in one knee, grease stains, the back belt was broken and had been repaired with a leather braid.) and the shopkeeper wanted $1,100.00 for them. (So much for buying them for a pattern.) I have never seen a pair like them since. Those places are great for getting the creative jucies flowing. All that is required is to make adjustment to your patterns. (Be sure and think through how your going to fabricate and assemble so you don't have to pull it apart and start again. I've learned alot by messing up!) The Dusty Johnson patterns are good if you don't have them you should consider getting them. I've always made my own patterns from scratch. Got frustrated with trying to make from the standard patterns as they never seem to fit quite right. If you're looking for something special let us know. If I can be of help with your project, I'd be glad to. Oh, I might warn you don't go into an antique store with a camera or a measuring tape, pad and pen, they don't like it too much. If I really wanted to measure something or make a sketch, I would ask first. Might save a little trouble and the embarassment of being thrown out. Not that I would know anything about that of course. You can learn alot about how to measure for a set of custom fit chaps by looking at custom makers measurements they ask for when ordering a set of chaps. That can give you an idea of what you need to measure. The rest is up to your whim and design. I know this seems vauge maybe not alot of help but if you tell us what exactly you have in mind there is not alot more we can help with. I'm sure one of us has something laying around, the problem with custom patterns is they were designed for a particular individual and might not work well for someone else. Once you have worn custom chaps made for you, nothing else will do.

Hey JW, Those look great! Really like the colors you used in the Yak hair! The mohair cinch is drop dead gorgeous! Good old time look too! I'm a bit curious about the yak hair, as Tosh is. I am familiar with mohair and horse hair, buckaroos around here won't use anything other than those two. I've never seen or head of yak hair cinches, how do they stack up with horse hair and mohair? I have been using mohair almost exclusively, on a horse that seems to be very sensitive and easily galls in the cinch area after a couple days of longer rides. I have not tried horse hair because it is a bit on the prickly side and I don't think this horse would appreciate it much, (maybe a broke in horse hair cinch is the way to go haven't tried that yet. Tried other sythetics recommended at the local shop, which were worse.) Other horses have no difficulty with the same gear and do not gall using the mohair. Anyway I'm looking for something that might work better for this horse, (aren't we always!) I look foreward to hearing your recommendations and might also be interested in trying a yak hair cinch in the future. I'll PM you later about it. Grumpy Guy

Nice rig! Like the swallowtail skirt and the taps. Always been a big fan of the longer eagle beaks like those. Whoever got that, got a nice rig! Thankyou for posting.

I have to say I really like the style collar pictured in JW's post. (The martingale type collar.) I see alot more of these around lately and believe there is some merit in thier design. I for years have used the heavy steer roping style collar that is desinged to tie in at the front saddle dees rather higher up near the fork. I have never had any problem with that style and found it both functional and useful for keeping a saddle in place. I have always adjusted my collar to fit much like the collar pictured in Jw's post. Every horse I've ever ridden was easily able to put his head down to drink, eat or pull up a steep hill. (I ride in the Sierras where terrain is generally very steep and rough.) My collar has never left a mark on the horses I've ridden. (The number would be a large number and don't even want to try to guess.) I've said all of this to make a point that we can argue syles and preferences all day and night, what really is important is to know how to properly adjust our gear so it performs it's intended pourpose and does so without sacrificing comfort for the mounts you use. I have used a lot of old and "out dated" equipment which has always performed well. Not that I don't like the newer designs, I just have never had the surplus of money to buy the latest, greatest gear. I have had to get along with what I had. Take a good long look at JW's photo, notice how the collar's center (where the three straps come together) fits in the center of the horses chest and does so low enough to allow the horse to lower his neck all the way down. Any collar that does not allow for this should be re-evaluated and adusted to fit like in the photo. Now that's my two cents, take it for what it's worth and hope no one is offended by my comments here. Just trying to offer some free information to anyone who wants to listen. If you disagree that's okay to.

Well done! Very attactive and nicely formed bosel. Is this for your personal use? Did you use or make a forming block to get the nose shape? Obviously you know something about fitting a bosel. It's nice to see good work. If you can it would be great to see how it fit on a horse! I've seen people who buy a bosel and try to use it right of the shelf with out forming it to fit first. Can result in some nasty sores if not properly shaped.

This appears to be a model 1909 Mc Clellan saddle. This model was the last of the Mc Clellan line. There were at three other versions the fist known as the 1859 model. This saddle was used by the US Army until after WWII when the army sold off hundreds to army surplus dealers. Collectors would have intrest in a saddle like this but it is the least valued version. tThe civil war modles are highly sought after and bring high prices and by the way they were made with black dyed saddle leather. (All 1909 modles were manufactured with natural colored saddle leather.) I'm by no means an authority on these but there is information regarding the specific features of the different models.

Very nice, good to see a new twist on the old designs. Very creative!

Ran across your request for info today. I can't help with patterns but there are lots of elaborate headstalls around. Checkout saddlery and tack web sites like High Country Cowboy, Hitchingpost Supply, Buckaroo Gear, ect., online, they have some great products and they get good money for them. Seeing what other craftsmen do should help you with ideas for your own. I have taken the measurements from my own horses. I had three and one had a head as big as a suitcase! If I made it to fit him it would fit about anything in the saddle horse size range. Unfortunately I did not save the measurements and he passed on last February. I have an number of store bought bridles here though and if you don't have access to one I could measure the one I made. The store boughts fit my smaller horses well but barely fit the larger horse. I prefer to make them slightly larger as I have often found I will be riding other stock than my own when gathering cows and it's good to have a good range of adjustment. Other options would be to find a horse with a longer face and take your own measuments. The horses I have now are shorter faced. Generally the throat latches are one half to three eights wide. Brow bands and side cheeks range from five eigths inch to over and inch wide. (I preffer not to use Chicago Screws as I've had them come apart on the trail and lost the screw part. I usually use a latigo to do the job of the screws, never had one come apart.) The cheeks and brow bands are some times scalloped and shaped various ways. The poll pieces will also range from five eigths to over an inch wide. Some of the specialized rigs will use a built in cavisson or "nose band." While they look nice, I shy away from those as they add severity to the bits due to the horses mouth is held shut. When used with ported bits the horses mouth can easily be damaged. (I would never use one with a ported bit although I've seen it done.) I've seen plenty of wrecks, one in particular a guy was using roping reins with a cavisson and he got off and dropped the reins. The horse became spooked and bolted catching the reins in the brush. The horse suffered damage to his mouth. The guy had carefully started the horse and had worked hard to retain a soft mouth. The horse did recover but the point is the accident would have been much less tramatic for his horse had he used different equipment. My point being when building or choosing tack put thought into where and how it is to be used, make pratical design decisions to make the tack safe as possible for horse and rider. Seeing your work I can see you will undoubtedly come up with some great looking headstals. Making your own patterns is rewarding and add a full filling feeling of achievment. You as well are free then to share your patterns with other (or not) with out worry of anyone else's restrictions (ie: copy rights, patents and such.) There are books on making tack of various types at your local leather craft suppliers as well. Aslo the complete rig, headstal, reins and bit are what we call "a bridle" in the western terms.

Very Nice!

The two fingers under the gullet is my preferred fit also. Partly because when you put your wieght on the saddle it will compress the padding and any less space will risk contact with the withers. Also some gullets will slope back and down in the back (like the wades) and the fingers are a guide for the front so care has to be used on horses with longer withers, I always check as far back as I can reach. Some horses will object rather violently if the gullet rides on the withers. Using the two finger guide, I have never ever had the gullet ride on the withers and damage a horse. I realize there are new ideas and thoughts all the time, but this has always worked for me, I'll stick with it. Never thought I'd see the day when two people would stop at thier favorite diner for a couple of hamburgers and pay over $20.00 including tip and soda pop. Diesel, well I guess I really shouldn't say much about the recent five bucks a gallon. (My mother always told me if I have nothing nice to say to keep my mouth shut.)

I am just getting into tree making, but have had a lifetime of experience with wood working. In alot of cutting and barrel saddles I have seen pine encased in fiberglass. Most appears to be a "yellow pine." (usually from the south east united states.) That particular pine is some what tougher and has a better strength and flex than most western spiecies. The common pines here in the west are soft and brittle, great for mouldings window casings and the like but not used for items requiring structural strength. We use fir out here which is far superior to any pines locally. Some old time saddle makers used douglas fir extensively for saddle trees as it was common in the west. Those were of course traditionally covered with rawhide as you are well aware. (It is still the construction material of choice by most constrction contractors in the west.) Douglas fir has a very flexable nature when green and retains a surprising amount of flex when it is dried. It will however split fairly easily. I have also worked with birch, ash, hickory, walnut, and found most are less flexable than douglas fir but are stronger, harder and do not split as eaily. Still as far as saddle trees and flex, I beleive it is negligable. You must consider that the rigging is made of flexible leather and when push come to shove the leather will flex/stretch and give way before the tree will. That is the reason for proper rigging adjustment, breast collars and properly fitting and padding the saddle in the first place. No question a horse that works at doctoring cattle all day will be sore as any of us would, but alot depends on the rider. Those who work slowly, methodically and carefully will in the long run doctor more cattle without soring thier horse. Those who run 'em down and rope them hard and fast will wear out more horses, and stess the cattle, with out getting as many doctored. Kind of compares to a man carrying a back pack. Most of those frames are not very flexible either. (especially the external frame packs.) The frame either fits the person or it doesn't, add to that someone trying to race over rough ground and the heavy weight, there will be an amount of pain involved. More than likely the fellow who adopts a reasonable pace will trave farther than the man who is trying to run a foot race with a backpack and he'll do it with less pain and suffering involved. We all are interested in maximizing comfort and performance, thus the variety of new ideas in saddlery. As long as we continue to search for new and better materials someone is bound to come up with something. This is also an industry where most like myself cling to the old tried and true methods and materials. Now comes my disclaimer, this is as others have said only myhumble opion so you may take for what it is worth to you or discard it altogether.

I've had several saddles around that squeaked. I have used neatsfoot oil and leather new with some improvement. I had one that never did quiet down though, so it's possible you'll have to work with it awhile and oil it several times to get it so it is not squeakin'. I've never used the babypowder just cause I didn't feel it was manley enough! (I could not bear to show up in cowcamp with my baby powder and be the butt of every joke for the next two weeks.) Sometimes the saddle will squeak because the paste let go in the seat and/or the forks under the front jockeys, allowing the leather to move a slight amount while you shift your weight. In this case it won't stop no matter what you do.

3arrows, I did a little checking and found that as mentioned Billy Cook produced saddles until he sold his original designs to Simco/Longhorn with legal right to lable them with the "Billy Cook" name. (Thus the reason the Simco/Longhorn looks like the old Billy Cook saddles.) He subsequently opened his saddle making business selling his newer updated Saddle Designs. His saddles are marked Billy Cook Maker, Sulpher, OK. So yours with the Texas mark may be a Simco?Longhorn and would be one of the original designs by Billy Cook. I noticed the Sulpher saddles are advertised as using Muir McDonald leather.

3arrows, I have little information but for what it's worth here it goes, maybe someone out here has better. Billy Cook saddles were made on par with other production saddles like Hereford, Circle Y and others. I was seeing thier cutting models in the cutting arenas in the early and mideighties. They also produced a barrel saddle, a roping saddle along with what they called reigning and penning models. (Cut away skirts to get better leg ques on the horses sides.) I had the opportunity to purchase several cutters off and on and would have during that time. Thier cutter was very similar to the "semi custom" Bob Marshal cutters of the time period but considered inferior by alot of cutters. (They cost alot less too.) They both had pine with fiberglass covering. The production and semi custom saddles also had the fender as part of the stirup leather to make the stirups more free moving and eliminate another layer of thick leather, during this period. The late eighties began to see serious material and workmanship problems due to cost cutting in most all production saddles. Some saddles began useing a "half leather" riveted to the fenders. The rivets could pull out and the rider dumped among the feet of cattle and horses. (I saw one young lady who could not have wieghed more than 100#s dumped that way from a brand new "special ordered" production saddle made by a very well known maker.) Billy Cooks seemed to hold up thier quality and were in demand around the arenas for those unable to purchase the semi custom and customs. Around the end of the late eighties or early ninties the company was closed down. My understanding they were unable to compete in the market of that era. Later Billy Cooks began to be produced by Simco-Longhorn. They appear very much like the original production saddle designs and would be hard to tell apart. I have not seen any of the newer saddles up close though, so I really don't know anything about their quality. I much prefer the custom mades now and will rarely give serious thought to buying the production saddles, although I still own and use a couple of old Herefords occasionally. (One came with a horse I bought and the other was my daughters which she left with me when she went off to college.) I did a lot of repair work on the Bob Marshals and Billy Cooks. The Marshal's were usually thicker, softer and better quality leather than the Billy Cook saddles and much easier to repair the old stitching or replacing the sheep skin. The stirup leathers wore well on both desins and I never did have to replace those on either models for anyone. (Some of these guys spent hours upon hours in the cutting arena.) Some of the riders had a more difficult time breakingk in the Billy Cooks due to the stiffer leather. But all in all the older saddles were quite serviceable and if taken care of performed well. Not much as far as a historical account but that's what I know. Hope someone else has more to add, I would like to know how the new production stack up as they appear to be almost the same from photos I've seen. I imagine they are using some imported leathers and parts as the prices I've seen are not alot different than the current cheaper production saddles on todays market.

Well that's it, I just threw my gaver and chasers hammer against the garage wall! That engraving is impecable! Saddles very nice too! I fiddle with bits and spurs but nothing on your caliber.

Adam, Check the thread "basic tools" by barra, It is a pretty good list of tools. As to the best place to buy them everyone has thier prefferences. there is a good thread on awls, round knives, head knives draw down stands and alot of other goodies too. So look around the threads and then go shoppin'. Remember Google is a great resource but some of the best suppliers of highly specialized tools are not on line so keep a note book handy while your looking though the threads. Some will require the use of the telephone. You'll find you will want the info later anyway when it's time for that special gadget you saw before but can't recall where.

Ok Mike, Now ya done it, my wife wants a purple one! (I don't know why she won't ride anymore anyway.)

Terry, I would bet the seat is glued down. (Most are unless they have been subjected to weather, wear and tear that caused it to come loose.) The cantle binding or roll would have to be disassembled as well. These are not really easy to reassemble and would have to be done by hand. This would be a job best left to a competent saddler. In my experience they would likely tell you to sell it and recoupe the money you have invested and go buy or order a new saddle that fits your girlfriend better. If your bent on taking on the project you are talking about major changes in the ground seat, requiring knowledge and tools made to tackle the job, skivers and shaves as well as a drawdown stand to mention just a few. Another consideration is the tree it self has much to do with how a saddle fits both horse and rider and there is a limit to the adjustments that can be made. It can be done but you'll invest more time and effort than it will be worth plus if it does not come out well the value of your saddle will be less. (McCalls do carry a pretty good value even used if they are in good condition, as they are one of the better production saddles and quite popular in the West Coast, Rocky Mtns., and Northwest, You should have little difficulty in finding a buyer.)

Larry, Beautiful Job! Too nice to get scuffed! I bet you would do well at a doin's like the Stampede. Yonatan, I have heard the same. In packer and cow camps I have been around this has been atopic of much discussion. Several guys I know use the buckle inward sets which are popular in the Sierra Nevada foothills and up to the Sierra crest. (I see almost as many buckle outward sets though too.) They pointed out the buckles and conchos could catch on brush, but I countered if yer feet stay in the stirrups where they belong the the buckle won't be able to catch. (I illustrated the point by mounting back up so they could see.) I usually build the buckle outward just cause I like it that way. The other complaint they had was after a long day of riding and your sore and stiff, it's easier to reach the buckle in the inside. (A point I was painfully aware of, but I was younger and folded in half better then.) The thing about both areas are similar, the country is generally rugged with lots of thick and thorny brush. (Usually what's not covered in leather comes back shredded, so protecting expensive boots is a valid point.) I have yet to see anyone caught by the buckle of thier spur strap. (Not so with the spurs themselves though.) If anyone out there has, I'd like to hear about it. Truth is cowboys and buckaroos follow their traditions just because that is the way it's always been done. (Myself included) As another example out here no one rides with a quirt! You see plenty of open reins, closed reins with rommels and mecates with poppers though. Point is they serve the same pourpose as the quirt, popular with Texas cowboys. (Don't misunderstand here I never would use these to solve a problem with a horse that can not be solved another way, time and patients, with a dab of wisdom applied here. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast sort of thing!) Quirts, rommels and the like are good tools, not always so much for riding a horse but also a great tool to get stubborn cattle moving along.

Since I'm old and married, my wife says I can't go play with the gals! LOL. But she used to let me go to the hills with a friend, (long time and well trusted friend by the way!) and gather his cattle every fall. I woud come home and draw and paint western cowboy pictures while I let the hide grow back from my adventure, (or misadventure, however you want to look at it.) I also have made old Spanish/Calfornia style bits and spurs with some sucess. I love working in both metal and leather.

Scouter, anyone who has spen t time ahorse back has had that very experience. I myself have literaly lost several hats while in pursuit of the wiley bovines on mountain ranges. Tree limbs and brush will take anything that's not well secured. I've lost cameras, binoculars, lunches, those little family radios we used to tell our partners which way the cows were headin', about any thing you can think of. I finally relented and purchased my first set of "stampede strings" (common western venacular for "chin cords.") with cotter pin holders, which inset into the hat band. (They do pull out easily, so if I do get hung up I ain't letf dangling from a tree limb only able to touch with my tip toes, a long and sufferable death by the way. Always good to have a knife that can be opened with one hand too.) Other guys I ride with use a pocket knife and poke little holes to insert a full loop "stampede string" through the brim. These horse hair types really will "clothes line" you as they are pretty stout, leather usually break but can still choke you up some. Amazing what a little eigth or quarter inch string can do at somewhere between 15 and 20 MPH. The little slides are sometimes quite strong don't break or pull off easily either. For best safety I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THE STAMPEDE STRINGS WITH THE LITTLE COTTER PIN ENDS, yer throat will love ya for it! And from past experience don't use para cord or baling twine to make due, stuff is way to strong!