BondoBobCustomSaddles

My 2 cents. I have quite a few of both round knives and swivel, mostly what matters to me is that they first, swivel smoothly without any bind, any of the bearing ones meet the need, second, fit my hand, none of them do because I have hands like catchers mitts!, and third, are very very sharp! What I do is take a smooth action swivel knife, and add girth to the barrel, lots of girth! Most generally with electricians tape, it makes the barrel so I can hold it and makes the movement between my fingers much smoother and less exaggerated giving nice smooth flowing cuts. I suppose I could take the time to make larger smooth barrels, but; that takes time and I don't have any. Then I use a ceramic blade and polish it with a buffing wheel to keep it razor sharp. Last I like to get my leather almost to the consistancy of peanut butter with moisture, so it will cut, stamp, and mold with ease. As for the round knife, I have lots, both antique and newer makes but; I always seem to go back to the one I started with which was an Osborn, I have been using it for about 20 years now, and while the shape is not exactly the same as it was when I started, I originally cut the handle a little to fit into my palm, and I keep it sharp. Just the way I learned in the boy scouts about 55 years ago, oh yea, most of you don't know what boy scouts were. Anyway, the real deal is that they fit , are comfortable for you to use and are Sharp. That's what works for me. Bondo Bob

To all the replies, as I have said many times in other replies, "custom" means it is made to order and is made the way the customer wants it. If he is a martingale user, then so be it, and so on. If he likes the old timey look, so be it. Elton, once again, very nice job! Keep up the good work. Bondo Bob

Nice job Elton! I very much like the overall continuity of the design and theme of your saddle. Your attention to detail from the pictures shows that "you get it". The only things that I would do different, (mind you each of us is different) is that 1) I personally do not like stirrup leathers over the fenders, pinch your leg in there once and you will know why. and 2) I would suggest that you incorporate your front "d"s into the plate rigging down below the front jockeys. They will be much stronger there, and do not stitch across them. The stitches and lacing holes effectively cut down on the cross sectional strength. Attached are a couple of pics on how I do it. All together a very nice saddle, very professional, some one will be proud to ride it and that's what you are looking for. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Here is an old process that works, but; it does take elbow grease. When I was making black powder rifles, "a long time ago" I wanted my brass to look clean, with a nice "been sitting around for a hundred years " effect. I used to use Bon Ami on a damp rag. You simply wrap the rag around your finger and polish with the bon ami and water paste. Keep going and it will clean the brass, but it won't make it real shiny. If you do the same with the new shiny stuff, it will dull it a little. At some point it will ring both the shiny and dull to the same sheen. Bondo Bob

Doug, Here are a couple of pictures of one I did with a 6" cantle. It had 1 1/2" dish. What I like to do is "hang" the leather from the top of the cantle to the seat bottom in order to create a smooth gradual transition that sets the rider a little forward and keeps him from "banging " into the top of the cantle when the horse is moving. Most people ask for those high cantles because they think they are "cool and old timey" and they think they need them in order to stay put when riding. Truth is, once they start riding a lot they will find that they do not need all that deep pocket in the seat and began to become uncomfortable with it. It is best to make a comfortable seat, unless they are just going to set the saddle on a stand somewhere as a conversation piece. Of course that is just my opinion, and like belly buttons, we all have one! Hope that helps. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Hi Doug, I am also with Bruce on this. I am not sure about Keith, however: rather than using my hands, I use my butt! I start out with them and mould them to what looks like it is good to me, and then I sit in it. Once I have done this, I then can see/feel where it needs more skiving, I keep up the process till I am satisfied that it feels comfortable. Finally, I have the customer come and sit it, they then tell me what they feel, and if more skiving is required, I do it right there and have them continue to sit it till they are also comfortable. Generally, it ends up looking the way Bruce and Keith described it. I am sending a couple of pics of one that has gone through this process. Generally for pleasure seats they end up narrower just in front of the seat pocket. By the way, this saddle is a 16 1/2" seat with a 1 1/2" dish and 3 1/2" cantle. Hope that helps! Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Well once again, I find that I need to get into the fray. I use what works for me! Most generally it is a round knife, an antique on at that. One of the things I like about a round knife is that you can not only slice to make a cut, but; you can also "roll" and make the cut. Given that you are making a lot of cuts, 6-8 per inch for some 60-80 inches 6" to 8"long, it is nice and easier on your hands to be able to change the action on your wrist and fingers once in a while! As for rotary cutters, I use them too, but; they do not hold an edge for long periods of time when doing this kind of cutting, and don't sharpen very well. All in all, a good round knife, kept SHARP gets the job done. Since I like my fringe to be a continuation of the actual chap leg, I don't buy commercial fringe and stitch it on, even if it is the right color and length. That's where the "all made the old fashioned way" phrase come in on my logo. Oh, by the way, they have to pay for it too! Happy Trails, Bondo Bob

Nice job Clay! I have often thought I might do a set myself, just cause I like to wander off the path a little sometimes, but; generally I use what I make ( a good way to advertise) and if I wore a set around the folks that I ride with, welllll, maybe some day. Anyway, nice job. If you hand stitch, be sure to burnish your thread vigorusly with a piece of paper, I use grocery bags. That will take off the extra wax and "slick" down what's left and will help keep the thread from grabbing the hair on it's way through. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

There are lots of ways to make them. Generally I have made so many that I just make them. As for sizing, which is the most important, I get the customer to give me a pair of pants that fit the way they want their chaps to fit. I add 1" to cover fitting over a pair of pants and that gives you a good start for size. Cut them up into patterns and off you go! Happy Trails Bondo Bob

Hey Guys, are we at the OK Coral yet? Guess I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth. At the risk of seeming patronizing, I am sure that most of you have the Stolhman books. Since Al and Ann are now riding up there in Gods Country, you can't get a response on this from them, however; I think they cover the subject of saddle fit, rigging, seat construction and design completely in vol 1 of their encyclopedia set. I have been following their teachings since I started, and can say without exception, they have never led me wrong. That is going on 20 years now. That is all I'm going to say about that. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Hi Jake! Nice work, they look like they will fit and wear properly. I have made a lot of chaps of all kinds for my customers, from show chaps, shotguns and bat wings,to chaps for the excersize riders at the track they are the toughest to please since they wear them 6/7 hrs a day every day and are very discriminating. One thing I have done to make sure that my paterns work is to actually make a pair for myself, and then wear them around out in the paddocks while I am doing chores, blowing snow or what ever. (my wife thinks I am crazy!) The idea is that if I wear them and use them a lot, I can see where they may need some adjustment to the pattern to make them more "user friendly" always looking to improve the product. By that I mean they don't slide down, or bunch up just above the thigh and below the waist when sitting on a horse and so on. Actually, I have found that a steep back to front angle on the belt/yoke will cause them to hang well, and not bunch up in front when you are sitting. Also, when I cut my fringe, I cut all by hand because you can't buy it cut to a length that gives the look most of my customers like, I cut it a full 6.5" to 8.0" long at a slight downward angle about 30 deg, 1/8" to 3/16' wide. At that length, once the fringe is out past the side of the chap it hangs straight down and gives that professional hand made look that is desired. By the way, I start most patterns for a person by using a pair of their pants that they like the way they fit. I mark them up with a marker and cut the beginning pattern out of those pants, that way the outside seams hang straight (very important). Suffice it to say that they don't get the pants back! Just a few tips for you. Keep up the nice work. There is a lot of people out there wanting custom chaps, and you will find no trouble getting work when your work gets out where people see it. Word of mouth is the best advertising. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

I wouldn't use one for love nor money! I would rather see a prospective sale go away than put them in one, knock off or not! If I had 100 of them for free, I'd give them to a plastic molder I know and let him regrind them and make signs out of them. I know the price of a custom made saddle is not for everyone, but; you can certainly find a good used real saddle out there at most tack shops that will meet your needs, for anywhere from $250 to $750, and even if you have to spend another $200 or so to have it gone through and freshened up, you are miles ahead of the game. Up here in Michigan, you can find lots of "old timer" made saddles reasonable, Prices, Ringalero's, even the old Billy Cooks (back when Billy was actually making them) and more. For those in MI, OH, and Indiana, try Bob Jacobs Boots and Saddles in Bellville, he will either have what you want, or can find it. By the way, with respect to the way the stirrup leathers come through the ralide tree. I had a customer who took the stirrup leathers out of the brand new saddle to oil them before his grand daughter was going to start using this youth saddle. He couldn't get them back in because of the way they pass through the tree. He had to pay me (an hours labor) to take the saddle part way apart and accomplish the task. That was the first of many more times I am sure that I will see this saddle for some kind of repair. That money saving tree, will cost him in the end! By the way, he owns a tack and supply store, so it isn't like he does'nt know how to put a stirrup leather in! Like I and so many others here have said, " I wouldn't ever use one"! I think too much of my saddles, my reputation, and especially my customers. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

I agree with all the comments here. Final note, these trees are "blow molded", a very cheap way to make them and why they are hollow. Using the excuse that they are hollow to save weight. Unless you are a die hard barrel racer who feels that that couple of pounds is really worth a hundreth of a second and have a competent maker make one for you saving the weight in the right spots, you shouldn't be concerned about a the weight of a saddle. I have been riding for over 55 years on all kind of saddles and horses, and I have yet to see where a couple of pounds will make a difference to a 1000 lb. + animal. By the way, I weigh over 200 lbs, and the saddle I personally use weighs about 50 lbs and "Old Duke" never complains! If you are going to error, do it on the side of safety. My saddles can range from about 35 lbs. to 60 lbs, depending on what it is made for and the type of rigging, stirrup leathers and so on. The most important thing is that the maker use only the best materials and tried and proven methods to make your saddle. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Greg's right! Order it the way you want it. Bottom line is that the filler should be tacked down by either the machine screw method or the tack method. I have repaired 100's of saddle horns , a lot of them belonging to people that do not even use their saddles to rope, or dally, or pony. They simply grab hold a lot, or set them down on the front of the fork and the front of the horn, (which is the correct way), and they come loose. In many cases the saddles are only a couple of years old. This (skipping the tacks in the filler) is a short cut that is used by manufacturers of "store bought" saddles. A large number of those saddles I have repaired were Circle Y saddles by the way. So many that I actually called them and tried to get them to let me set up as a repair center up here in Michigan. They weren't concerned about the need for repairs. They said "if they want them fixed they can send them back. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

One last word. I only use PURE neatsfoot oil, and over the years it has served me well. If you use too much it WILL soak through to the other side. You have to experiment to see how much is too much. So, use it as Bruce says in steps. If it is PURE it will not darken the leather very much at all. Once it dries it will com back to the natural color. For saddles that are "old and dry". Once I have them clean, I take a small iron pot, put about 4oz. of PURE neatsfoot oil in, then add 2 to 3 tablespoons of virgin olive oil to it, and take it out to my grill, (my wife would shoot me if I heated it on the stove! Doesn't smell bad to me but!!!) anyways, I heat the mixture till it is coming to a boil. Then I use a piece of sheepskin and apply it to the leather. The heat really drives the oil into the fibers of the leather, and usually rejuvenates the leather. If that dosn't get it done, then the leather is beyond use. Again, use only PURE Neatsfoot oil. Happy Trails

Hi Dusty! Well, first I will say that every one on this thread should be happy that you took the time to explain in great detail the reality of life about saddles and how they are built, used, and interact with both the horse and rider. The only way I would expend that much time and breath is if someone was in my shop and serious about taking that next step from a manufactured saddle to a custom hand made saddle, that they want to use and at some point pass on to their grand children! I fully agree with what you have said here, and would only add this, it has been my experience over many years, (at least 40) in observing horesmen (and ladies) that after several years of owning horses, buying and selling them until they settle on what they like in style, type of riding, and conformation, and the like. Most horse folks are not ready to get a saddle made because they do not know what they need to know in order to be happy with the product. I generally won't make a saddle for a novice, and certainly will not make a saddle for a horse under 5 years old. The reasons are obvious, as you stated too many things change in the first several years. It has been my observation that generally, once a person has finally settled on what they like, the majority of what they end up owning (horses) for the rest of their life are pretty much conformed the same, and a saddle that fits one of them really well, will most likey fit the others they end up having over time. Of course, there is never a perfect answer, and some folks do change completely what they ride like going from an Arab to a Draft horse of what ever, and in that case, all bets are off! My advice to beginners out there is simple, go out and get yourself a good used old time makers saddle. The likes of a Price, Ringalero, or Ryon, from your local tack shop. You can get them for a reasonable price and will at least have a quality made piece that you can ride, and enjoy until you are ready to have a good custom one made. Those older saddles are like putting on a good comfortable pair of old slippers. They "just feel good"! Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

Keith, I agree with your comments completely. The bottom line is that quality materials, and quality work make a quality product. I have always tried to stick to the "old fasiohed" ways, and never pass up a chance to aquire a really old ( late 1800's early 1900's saddle) that has been discarded because it just is too warn out for rebuilding, and taking it apart to see how the masters did it. Never too old to learn something else about the craft. Most generally they adhear to your comments. By the way, whose trees do you use? Bondo Bob

Thanks Ben, You beat me to it. As a side note, jigs, paper patterns, nails, strings, whatever; the most inportant issue is results. Once you have your rigging tacked in place, put your tree on your tree stand with the front sticking out forward of the end of the stand so that the rigging is clear of the stand. Level the tree bars from side to side, and be sure it is square on the stand, and the stand is level on the floor. Then put a broom handle through the rigging. If it, (the broom handle) is level with the floor and square to the front of your stand you have achieved your goal. If not, start over. Bondo Bob

Hi Everyone, At the risk of either agreeing or disagreeing with the comments in this thread, I find that this topic is fully covered in detail, and also how to make a "jig" that works on all styles of rigging, and instructions on how to use it, can be found in The Encyclopedia of Saddle Making by Al Stohlman. I have used this method for a very long time now, (15 years) and have never had a saddle that came out wrong. I have used it on saddles with Quality , Superior, Hadly & Fox, and Bowden trees. The outcome is the same and does take into consideration any inconsistancies in the tree itself. Bondo Bob

OK, this is just my opinon, and like belly buttons, everybody has one, but; My recomendation is simple, first, get the set of books from Tandy (Encyclopedia of Saddle making by Al Stholman). They are the most detailed and complete set of instructions on how to, I have seen. After spending some time reading and understanding at your own pace you will know if you want to go on. Given that you do, you can buy a "kit" from Bowden Tree Company in Texas for about $700. Since you have read the books, you will then know that the kit is really just the materials to make a saddle, but; it is pretty complete and a good way to get started. Then locate the nearest Tandy store near you, you can get all the books you need including how to hand stitch and so on and they are fairly inexpensive and you will become very aquainted with them through the process of working with leather. You are now ready to start. Take your time and pay close attention to Al's directions. They are complete. Depending on your level of expertise with using your hands you can make a quality high dollar saddle out of those books, but; more importantly you will learn much more than you can using the videos. I have been making saddles for over 15 years and have made a lot of money and currently am retired from my career job (Advanced Seating System Engineer) and now have become an "antique seat system engineer", and cannot tell you the enjoyment and satisfaction that I get from making and repairing saddles. By the way, I still pull out those books each time I make a saddle, I always seem to either find something more to learn, or come up with an idea on my own. They are an excellent investment. I hope that you will decide to go forward with your project. Good luck! Bondo Bob P.S. This is a pic of the very first saddle that I built from the books.

JW Nicely done. I hate it when people let the tooling get in the way of getting the basics right. Good balance, nice rise in the ground seat, should be a comfortable seat. Do you use leather or tin for your ground seats? Bondo Bob

Traveller, Just a couple of words here. 1) you have gotten a lot of good advice from the others, and should be able to find the remedy in all that text. 2) From the pics of your horse, he appears to be an old "stock type" built horse with plenty of muscle. I like those types myself, however, a lot of today's production saddles are made to fit the general type which seems to be a cross between 1/4 and Thorobred. The problem is that most saddles are either too wide in the withers or too small in the withers, both can cause problems. Yours appears to be too wide for the horse from the pictures. Regardless of how comfortable a saddle is for you, if it dosen't fit your horse correctly it just doesn't fit! A good fitting saddle should fit giving even pressure throughout the length of the bars without any pad. I use a strip of linen about 2" wide, by 8" long. I place it under the saddle starting at the withers and pull it out slowly taking note of how much restance there is to it being pulled out. I do this at 3" intervals the whole length of the saddle tree, both sides. The resistance should be the same all over. 3) As for height at the gullet. when I make a saddle, I make sure that the tree I am using, has between 2 to 3 fingers of clearence between the withers and the top of the gullet when the tree is sitting on the horses bare back. Once the saddle is made with the skirts and all, this will equate to about 3 1/3 fingers to 4 1/2 fingers without a pad minimum. 4) Once a saddle fits like that, you don't need 4" of padding! I am exaggerating here, but, I will attach a picture of a horse that is built similar to yours with a saddle the fits properly, you will see that I only use a single pad and I use this horse hard on cattle, trails, and all around fun with no problems. 5) Lastly, the information about the saddle being laced to the end of the skirt is correct. There should be at lease 1 1/2" of free corner at the end of the skirts in order to keep it from pinching, and rubbing on the horses back. If you are trailing up and down hills and so on this is a real problem, remember ropers rope on level ground (your saddle is a roping saddle), and it doesn't effect that area so much, but; up and down hills and over logs and so on will cause it to dig into his back. I will also attach a pic of how it should look at the back of a saddle. Hope this helps! Happy Trails! Bondo Bob P.S. I lied about the just a couple of words!

Hi Rusty, To answer your question, Once you have the tree, ( I have mine made to my specifications in Texas and it takes about 10 to 15 weeks to get one from them), it typically takes about 8 to 10 weeks to build a plain saddle, (lot of time waiting for leather components to dry after being molded over a part of the tree like the swells, cantle binding, horn and so forth, and fitting the parts together just so,) then comes the tooling which depending on the intricasies of the pattern and the amount of tooling to be put on the saddle and additional 3 to 4 weeks. Hope that answers your question. Happy Trails! Bondo Bob

In the process of making saddles and other leather projects, using water is common. The way I avoid water spots, or "fix" them when they occure is this: First I only use pro oil stains, they are deep penetraiting, and do not wash out. Second, once water has gotten on the leather, I wet the "whole thing" no matter how big a piece. That way it will dry evenly and not leave a stain where the edge of the water is. the same thing for a project that has gotten water stains on it. Remove the sheen, or finish or whatever you used, (I use laquer thinner for that purpose) then wet thoroughly and let dry. Then proceed with the new finish and complete the project. Hope that helps! Happy Trails! Bondo Bob