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I'm up past midnight, a rare thing these days. So thought of wishing everyone here. From both of us, A Very Happy New Year!

@bruce johnson you're right. I have no idea how drapey the hides will be. Still have a way to go with the conditioning and restoration. They are very soft but might not drape well. If they ae not very drapey, I will have to probably find a different use for them. Let's see. Meanwhile. I know hair-on hides are used as blankets and rugs. Do you use them as is? I mean, as one gets them from the leather store? How does one keep them clean?

Yes. It will be hot to use it as a blanket. I just plan to cover a bed with it. It is not cold enough where I stay to use leather blankets either. Else, it would have been nice to make a leather blanket with a soft fur lining. That is good idea, to check whether I want to keep the natural shape. After I have completed conditioning the leathers, i will have to check which best fits a bed and has the best shape. I thought the same - about lining with fabric - but stitching so much is daunting since I do only hand stitching and don't have a machine. I'm also wondering whether using some sort of snaps might work.it They can be attached in some sort of pattern all over the bedspread holding the lining to it all over instead of only along the edges. I could separate the fabric periodically to wash it. Of course, the edges of the leather will have to be finished anyway, whether I stitch the lining on or not. And fabric will need to be stitched too, since we do not get fabric of such large widths. That can be done with my domestic sewing machine. I read on Amazon about specific needles, purportedly for domestic sewing machines to sew canvas and leather. Let's see if those work. I'm not too confident but one can always try. I won't be surprised if they say '2-3 oz leather and no more' in fine print. @Handstitched thank you for your suggestions.

Has anyone made a leather bedspread? I would love some information on how to make one. I recently laid my hands on several old, large full grain hides - all dark brown. No mold or damage, just a little dry. I have cleaned them with dilute vinegar anyway, and saddle soap. Now being conditioned. I also plan to do the 'damp leather waxy conditioner rub-in' thing. Two of the three hides have large oil stains on the flesh side, as if they were used under a car. When I found them, they were being used as carpets at an estate sale but they are still in very good condition. No cuts or any other other damage. Tells me how strong and resilient leather is. I have, of course, cleaned them thoroughly. They are soft and between 3.5 to 5 oz thick. I think with a lining, it might be interesting to make a bedspread with one of them. But I am unsure about even where to start. I would appreciate any information and guidance.

@chuck123wapati Exactly! @ScottWolf as @chuck123wapati says, bring along your individual ingredients and you are welcome to join our experiment. Individual ingredients. like the rest of us are using though, since that is what we are testing. We are not testing conditioner mixes. That will take us off-track.

Thank you @fredk I will add that to my list of "oils I can use to darken leather instead of using dye"

@deboardp 'oil-tanned' is actually a misnomer. Oil-tanned leather is actually chrome-tanned leather that is, post-tanning and dyeing, stuffed with fish oils and other oils and fats in some process that makes it soft and rich and pretty water-resistant. It is lovely and a favourite type of leather for me. I just dumped some mineral oil on several pieces of oil-tanned leather - different sources - and they all absorb the oil perfectly well. The only leather that does not absorb any oil, mineral oil or any other, is the leather with plastics on top. They do not absorb anything, oils, waxes, whatever. About waxing damp leather, I should have realized that the fats applied and the water in the damp leather would form an emulsion from which the water could evaporate. I think I will try it. I have some old, clean sides which are rather dry. that would be perfect for this. @ScottWolf It is good to hear about people's experiences. We all have garnered information from hearing about other people's experiences over the decades as well as our own research (it is such a simple matter these days and I suspect most people do plenty of it) and of course, personal experiences. People here have decades of experience that they speak from, knowledge which is very valuable. A large number of people make their own leather conditioners as well, though they do not much talk about it. Each person has his/her own take on what is good and bad, and really, seeing how people from different parts of the world and even parts of a large country, have different opinions, sometimes conflicting, sometimes not, how can anyone really definitively say that what one says is right and everyone else not? Even research publications - anyone who has any research experience knows to look at every aspect very carefully before fully believing it. But having different opinions is not an attempt to offend and should not be taken as such.

Good, detailed report @fredk. I missed showing the backs of the leather pieces, which you have done. I should include that the next time. I love how dark the ones treated with cooking oil and NFO compound are. Like you said, good to use in place of dyeing. Which cooking oil did you use?

Very true @deboardp About applying wax oil mixtures to damp leather, how does that work?. The water resistant effect of the wax-oil mixture will work both ways is it not? It will prevent water being absorbed into the finished leather but will it not also prevent any water evaporating from damp leather?

Precisely why I like to use mineral oil. Oils from recently deceased animals and vegetation are meant for the life of that living object, which is a limited number of years. Mineral oil is a different matter. I want my leathers to last a long time, ergo use a product that has that life as well. Different ways of thinking, I guess.

@deboardpLOL believe me, we all have the bit about forgetting things. My husband refuses to allow me to keep things away 'safely'; it becomes 'safe' from ever being found again. So I get what you're saying. Good to hear your prayers were answered. That will give hope to many who need it and read your post. Thank you for talking about it. About Lanolin, I know unfortunately that many are allergic to it, my husband being one of them. But he seems to tolerate it well in my conditioner, which is simple. It just has Lanolin, Beeswax and mineral oil. If I want a wax it is more of the Lanolin and beeswax with a bit of carnauba wax added in for more shine, the rest being the oil. If I want a balm, more of the oil and less of the other ingredients. I usually keep changing the proportions depending on the season when I make it. So more solid ingredients in summer and vice versa in winter. The mineral oil restores color and brings a warm shine to the leather, which I like. In fact, a mix of beeswax and mineral oil can be used to bring back an shine and restore color after conditioning with other products, f desired. I still like it better than other oils. If I have a bad experience with it, I will change the oil that I use and post it here as well. The D-Limonene I get off Amazon. I add it last and I just add about 10-12 drops for a small batch of conditioner - about 250 ml liquified. I just add it, stirring, until I get a strength of smell that I like. Cod liver oil I plan to order - does it have to be Norwegian?

@deboardp Thank you for your service. I am sorry and deeply ashamed that you went through so much suffering. I admire you for coming out of it and making a life for yourself. Please do not call yourself a bumbling idiot. Life happens, and after all that you have gone through, I think, and many would agree, that you are a hero and an inspiration, not an idiot by any standard. I completely agree about people using the cheaper mineral oil to pad everything. It is organic as I have mentioned in your thread. but whether to use it or not is a personal matter. Just an FYI, I add some D-Limonene to my leather conditioner, which inhibits bacterial as well as fungal activity. Smells good too. In such small quantities, it does not harm the leather either. As you are making sandals, the fungicidal and bactericidal properties might be useful. You said you use tallow. Does tallow have a specific purpose? I do not use it or keep it at home. but would love to know. Also, you talk about stuffing leather with fats and waxes and lanolin. How is that done? Is it hot stuffing? Is there a different way of doing it?

@deboardp lanolin, beeswax and mineral oil provides everything - softening, water resistance and a warm shine with further protection. I don't use any other animal fat at home except lanolin, the fragrance of which I love, ergo, it ends up on my leathers. Mineral oils are obtained during the production of 'fossil fuels'; fossils are purely from organic material, so mineral oil is organic in origin.. Besides mineral oil has at least one carbon atom with sp3 hybridization which is the most basic requirement for any chemical to be labelled as 'organic'. Cod liver oil. I really want to use that, since it is said to give that characteristic fragrance of leather but how long does it take for the cod liver oil smell to dissipate? Could you let me know please? @chuck123wapati after you mentioned that book in a different thread, I got one for myself. It is so very interesting, the things people used to make. I can't wait to try some of those recipes, although I wonder if I can get some of those ingredients these days. Just love that book. Thank you for mentioning it. See, I wonder how leather can get hydrated with pure waxes and oils. Hydration requires water. We clean and dry leather completely before applying the conditioners, which are usually all fats and preservatives, so how can it get hydrated? About conditioning leather, I wonder whether the leather fibers do actually change in any way when a person rubs in waxes and oils into it. How hot can it really get, after all? Certainly not as hot as being out in the summer sun in Nevada, for example. So if the latter does not change the chemical structure, can rubbing in oils change it? I wonder if the conditioners rubbed in just spread through the leather, in between the fibers and cause good lubrication, and as the surface fibers get lubricated, the rubbing allows the oils and waxes to penetrate further and further into the leather? Waxes, being solid probably stay in place longer than plain oils which might leak out or get wiped off...I wonder if that is what happens. I know of a couple of conditioners which do not have much fats in them - no color change which, I have heard, always happens with fats applied to leathers. These conditioners do not condition much at all and soon dry out. I, in fact, use these conditioners only when I specifically do not want the color to change. The items need conditioning so frequently that I do not use them any more.

@chuck123wapati that's great. I will do that bending test too. Thank you. I'm always learning something new. @deboardp a good number of us here are older too. So I doubt I will live long enough to get the type of results that will truly help here though I do hope I can pass it on to continue. But if you like, you can do something without having to resort to microscopes and such detailed research. You could just get a few pieces of scrap and use whatever waxes or fats you have on hand and think would be suitable and see what happens, like we are doing with oils. You can use the same items as others have used - no reason why only one person has to test it. About leather conditioners, Have you tried making your own? You have so many years of experience and must have used different ones. You will be aware of what works and what does not work. That is how I ended up making my own. Reading the ingredients in most store-bought ones, I did not know most of them. So I read up and mixed my own and they are good enough for me - my blade wax is so protective that when I get out a stored knife and want to get it ready for use, it is a chore getting the wax off. But that tells me it is well protected as well. If a newbie like me can do that, I am sure a person with so much of experience can certainly do better. Do give it a try. if you discuss it here, there will be many who will give you suggestions and help you along if you need, as I'm sure you know. I know I would and I'm sure many others too would benefit from your experience. That how knowledge is passed on, isn't it? Coming to your question on why the experiments are centered on oils, the question started with my wondering why so many say mineral oil is bad for leather. Everyone always says it is bad, companies selling leather-care products the most. But there is no real evidence of this. The question then spread to other oils as well - people said olive oil stayed good for thousands of years - this was in sealed bottles - in open ones it would have long turned rancid and thick, but this is not realized. Same with other oils. So the idea of this experiment just slowly built up. It was always about oils. So we worked with oils. But waxes are a good idea and maybe I will test some waxes as well. It will just be a few additional pieces and give a lot of information. Thank you for that.

I apply a thin coat of mineral oil on the rim of each new bottle of glue. Then, I wipe it clean when I am done and reapply before closing. This way, it is easy to wipe off the rim and the new coat prevents sticking. I wipe the rim again before I use it the next time. It has helped me so far. I apply a very thin coat so it does not mix with the glue.

@fredk It is perfectly fine if you have not been able to post for a while. Life happens and this is not a job or something that is so strictly time-based. It is a simple experiment that will go on for years. @deboardp This is a casual experiment by people who are not in a laboratory or full-time professionals in the leather industry, to think about microscopic results and other matters. Like all experiments, people coming and going do not affect the results. I dare say if I drop dead tomorrow, Fred will certainly continue or others might take up the baton. Who knows? if you read the entire thread, you will see that we are trying to answer the simple question of whether mineral oil is good or bad for leather, and about other oils as well. It is not about the complete preservation of leather professionally. Knowing one oil is good or not-so-good might influence a reader's decision to use or not use that oil, either alone or with other additives like waxes, oils and other chemicals. Nowhere do I or anyone else here, from what I have read so far, think that oils are the only way to take care of leather. We are talking about caring for our leather items long term, not just the leatherworkers but the customers as well, so that when they decide to buy any products for caring for their leather, they can have an idea about the oils in those products and whether they want to use them or not. Maybe one day I or someone else will test different waxes and solid fats in a similar way. Frankly, I hear 'experts' speaking everywhere, always, always anecdotal, because preservation takes decades. We don't know how things were used over decades, what else was done to those leathers, and so much more that we don't know. So depending on what people say, seems to me, to be a bit disingenuous. From what I have read, from you and everyone else on this forum, it appears, at least to me, that what is used on leather differs depending on the part of the world the persons are from. People have always used what is available to them. Naturally what is used in the US is different from what is used in the far East as is different from what has been traditionally used in Europe and so on. Frankly, it appears to me that post-tanning, oil and wax stuffing is done to replace the fats lost during tanning and once the leather is ready and sold to leather workers, most often, it just needs care and conditioning. For that, people swear by so many different oils and waxes. From Neatsfoot oil to Mink oil to beeswax to tallow to cod liver oil and so on. If all those work well for people in different parts of the world over the years, the only thing they have in common is that they are all some form of lipids. Anything that prevents dehydration should work, I should think. Of course, that is just common sense speaking. I dare say there will be a scientist out there spending hundreds of thousands to finally come to the same conclusion. Of course, we also have the ''smart people' who read everything on the net and come to their own conclusions - no idea whose beliefs they decide to use. Everywhere I hear anecdotal evidence of why something is good or bad for leather, always someone else who is an expert, who of course has similar anecdotal evidence or has examined ancient leather supposedly preserved with the item in question, and little else known about how it was cared for, treated, etc. Now if someone who is 90-100 years old came up and said he was oiling or preserving leather with preservative A for the last 80 years and has cared for it very well, with evidence, and then says preservative A is horrible, I might believe. Other 'evidences'? I prefer to reserve judgment. That is, in fact, why we decided to do this simple experiment of whether specific oils are good or bad for leather. And I am sure you know that the best experiments are always those which answer simple questions - 'Do specific oils damage leather, help them or are neutral?" versus a very generalized "How best to preserve leather items long term" - which would be the worst type of question any one could ask and try to answer, scientifically, in one step!! Incidentally, I make my own leather conditioner, leather preservative and blade wax, all of which I make after quite a bit of research and experimentation. However, knowing that people have different ideas and beliefs, and not wanting in any way to appear like a superior know-it-all, since it is only recently that I started leatherworking, I have not and will probably not put up those recipes here. Suffice to say, they do contain most of the items popularly used. To put what we are doing scientifically, the Aim of this experiment is: To determine whether Mineral oil is good, bad or neutral on leather, specifically veg tanned leather and the effects of other oils as well, in comparison. The procedure : We, whoever contributes here, used specific oils we have with us, applied specific amounts on specific sized pieces of the same veg-tanned leather side and kept identical pieces under different conditions to see how the leather responded to those different conditions. We, of course, have controls as well. The Conclusions? The final one will be a long time coming but currently I have discovered that short term at least, mineral oil is the most useful. You can read about it in an earlier part of this thread. Now, if you would like to get a microscope and sufficient leather to wax and then slice and check the effects of different waxes periodically, you are welcome to join us. As I always say, The more the merrier. Of course, you will need a really large piece of leather, probably an entire side per type of wax, because this experiment should go on for decades to be useful and, each time, you will need vertical and horizontal sections to be really informative. Welcome to the experiment, in advance.

That is beautiful! I'm not surprised that your daughter loved it. And the love her father made it with?.. I bet she loved it more.

You're welcome. This is the tool kit I mentioned earlier. It is about 4-5 Oz thick - this is difficult to roll even when I keep the smallest items in it - even small stamps make it far too bulky to roll. And it should have had slots for tools on only one side. It should have actually been made with thinner leather. I have another similar kit for punches that is made with synthetic material - that has slots on only one side.

Yes you understood correctly. I meant burnishing the surface of the splits. The split I have, even on the smooth side, is rougher than the grain side of full or top grains. Water burnishing works but needs a lot of elbow grease to buff; less so with Tokonole. Mop-n-glo I have heard of as a sealing agent. I have no experience with it so do not know if it can be used here as a burnishing agent. Maybe someone else here will give you that information. Other burnishing agents are gum trag, beeswax, saddle soap. However, most of these, including Tokonole, might make casing to tool or carve or dyeing difficult as they, except for saddle soap, as far as I know, all resist water. So burnishing with water/saddle soap or burnishing after dyeing and then cutting might be a way out.

Some of the high-end leathers like Saffiano are splits with additional layers of synthetics on them. I have heard others are too, but do not know which ones. I have no idea of their strength either. They could hold up or it could be that being so expensive, people who buy items made from such leathers are just more careful with them. I have a split from Springfield, a large, stiff, heavy one. I discovered that pieces of it make great 'poundo' boards - much kinder on my chisels and punches. I keep it on a block of wax which is itself placed on a granite slab. Works well for me. The split soon becomes weak and floppy where I punch on it though. Whether all leathers do that so easily or splits are weaker, I do not know. I just replace it as needed. I also use it to practice stitching and checking dyes. One side of the split is relatively smooth , I used water and burnished it and plan to practice tooling on it. I did not use Tokonole as I plan to dye it as well. Tokonole would probably give it a good shine and finish. The split that I have is too heavy for using as a support for floppier leathers. But I know there are items made with plain splits. I have a tool kit made with split leather - the type where you place the tools in little slots and roll, so it is very flexible. It is smooth on both sides but it has not been burnished or dyed - it is a plain untreated split. If that is possible, i see no reason why you should not be able to make pouches and bags, if your splits are of the appropriate temper. You could try burnishing them with Tokonole first, to ensure they can be made to look presentable. Any burnishing agent should work, not necessarily just Tokonole. Hope that helps a bit.

When I see people breeding dogs and cats for specific things, it infuriates me. Let them continue to evolve the way they have through the years and stop getting exaggerated forms of anything -noses, backs, whatever. Unless it is for health, it is not right. Pure breeds bred with care and integrity are fine but all those naked cats and Persians with scrunched up noses like the Bulldogs and all that is explained so much in detail here are nightmares! I remember in 2003, having a long discussion with my Genetics professor about how such selections of specific features and characteristics through genetic manipulation would be possible in humans by 2020. I had thought it would not happen until at least 2040 - good to be proven right about humans. - in dogs and cats, it's been happening all through, in a rough and haphazard way.. Can see it happening in humans as well - blue eyed babies, babies with big butts, babies with... you get the picture. I suspect 'intelligence' will be the least in demand. I, for one, always get my pets from shelters and they have always been darling; would not win prizes at shows but are our babies and perfect for us. Our current dog, Pepper, wants to be a cat - after seeing our now deceased cat filling soil post-poop, she does the same! Only she wisely does it some distance away, while mom or dad pick up after her! Then sneezes all the way home. Ordered some face masks for her. Only found one seller. Let's see if she agrees to wear them.

Thank you @Burkhardt. @packjac I was worried about rancidity too and very few oils stink as much as rancid coconut oil. But guess what? It did not turn rancid in my experiment. There is no smell at all. It will be nice if you could upload photographs of your leather with the olive oil on the thread of our experiments as well. The more people who contribute, the more the information gained.

@nstarleather I know! Our fur-babies are our babies, just as much as our human ones. I certainly worry as much about my furry and feathery babies. Talk to them like to humans too.. People think I am touched in the head! LOL, but I don't care. They understand and respond and that is what matters. My poor dog still coughs and sneezes when we take her for walks, even with the antihistamines. I wipe her clean as soon as she comes home but she still snuffles for a while. So I am thinking of a face mask for her. Looking for one, though I am not sure she will agree to wear it. It needs to keep out the pollen but allow her to sniff and smell everything.

I plan to change her allergy meds periodically. That might be effective for her, just like it often is for us, humans.

Have you looked in Etsy? They have a very large number of patterns for leather items and might have one for this as well.