David Genadek

I have had nearly every brand and I my favorite are Bill Buchmans. My second favorite was one I got from Ellis but it was a bit different than what I'm seeing here. It was one that we used in the Belt company. It had a really nice handle for skiveing. Some one stole it though. David Genadek

Adam, There are so many things that effect rock perhaps it would be best to begin with what effects it. First let me say that everything I’m saying here is based on a horse in neutral position on level ground. Let’s start with the concept of Orientation or how horizontal is the vertebral column. This is a very important concept in regard to saddle fit and it is largely ignored. We tell exactly where the spine is Without an x-ray machine so what we will do is find easily identifiable points that give us a close idea. Dr Bennett came up with the whole x-ray vision concept a long time ago in regard to training horse judges and it has had a huge impact on the horse industry and can be of extreme value to the saddle maker. In this case we are trying to get a handle on where the actual vertebras are. You find the base of the neck which is pretty easy because it is where the neck gets really wide. Then you find the point of the hip and draw a line between them. This is what I call the line of Orientation (Photo spine 1). This is what tells you how downhill your horse might be, not the whither and croup as that can lie. Now we have a pretty good idea where the spine lies. Clearly this line is not always what we see on the top line however it is where the actual undulations in vertebral column that will be creating the range for the rock that you have been talking about in motion will occur. In spine 2 I have changed the spines orientation by 5 degrees so you can get a handle on how it can affect the rock. You will also see a line drawing of a back in simplified form so you think about how the orientation will affect gullet width. To the side you will see side views of the simplified back in different orientations with a bar drawn in to show how this orientation line will affect the spread of the bars. If the seat is to be level then on a downhill horse (which most are today) then the saddle should be wider in the rear than the front. This concept will also affect how you view the rock of the saddle. In spine 3 I have drawing the top line which is created by the lengths and angles of the spinal processes this is what is most often fit with no regard to the other influences. You can also see how the orientation affects this line. If the horse has been properly ridden so that the spine is still along the orientation line then this is not a problem but if you fit a horse whose spine has been pulled off that basic line for a multitude of reason then you will end up with a fit that will run into problem further down the road. I have not come up with an easy way to tell you if the spines basic line has been disrupted. Over the years and looking at thousands of horses you can tell by the muscles. Tightness in the top line and pockets behind the shoulders are good signs that the spines natural alignment has been effected by poor horsemanship. Here is the business decision for the saddle maker do you fit the horse as he is or as he should be? Here is link to an article that Liz wrote that shows two horse’s with different conformations and how they need to be supported differently to achieve the same result. This is relevant to the topic of rock as it can help you understand how dependant the where and how the rock will be effected is on the overall conformation of the animal. The conformation will change which parts of the back will be affected the most in movement. When she refers to ventroflexed gaits she is talking about those gaits that require a hollowing of the spine as you mentioned from Debs perspecitve. Here is a site with some good info on range of motion. David Genadek

Pete, These are excellent! Your pulling off some tough bends and curves really well!! Now try to just let it fly and don't worry about perfect. If you don't like what you have throw another piece of tracing paper on top and trace what you like and fix what you don't. Next step is to create a flow line and stick them in as fill. It is that simple. You can draw!!! David Genadek

Really awsome and creative use of the stamps!!!! David Genadek

Thanks Tom, I'm not sure what a rod tube handle is but adding a bit of tooling to a lining always adds a touch of class but you have to watch the price too. I did carved grips for Goldwings a long time ago it was a bit of a challange to figure out how to sew a tube on a Campbell Bosworth machine but I did get it to work. David Genadek

This one convinced me it is time to go get glasses. David Genadek

Adam, I was trying to stay with in your bowl analogy when I said two hinges. You are correct to think in terms of many hinges as in each vertibrea being a hinge. There for the whole spine can be altered depending apon how it is acted apon. In this lies the rub. Does a saddle maker fit the horse as he is or should he fit tha actual back type the horse has. There is no right answer to this, it is a bussiness decision. If you make the choice to fit the actual back type you then have to have a team of people that can help the rider understand how they are effecting the conformation of thier horse. If you are more interested in the leather art portion of the saddlery world and you don't want all the hassle then you fit the horse as he is. In your first post you prefaced your question from the Jineta perspective. From this perspective the rock will be closer to the base of the whither. In the Brida pholosphy the rock will be closer to the T14 postion as all these makers are talking about. The thing to understand is that if that portion of the back is the lowest point in the horses back It is highly likely that the rider is not getting engagement of the hind quarter or some other thing is causing the horse to operate his body upside down. Here is a link to Mustangs in the Pryor Mountains Here you can see a baseline for a given rib cage shape. Personally when I design a bar I design the rock for the baseline. At this point this is still largely a guess as no large amount of data has been collected and presented in a way that could be analized. Most of my business comes from people who are working with a skilled horseman who are addressing the horsemanship issues at the same time. We will often hold off on building a saddle until the horse has been taught to move right side up again at which time we can more accurately determine the ribcage and topline shape. In regard to the Spinous process gaps limiting the downward movement of the back: I recently had a Client refered her from the U of Minnesota because her horse had Kissing spine. I can't remember the exact figure but she said the vet at the U had mentioned that over 70 percent of the horses out thier had some spinous process being fused together because of poor riding or poor care. To understand rock you need to understand collection then you need to get a handle on the ways that riding concepts can be distorted. Then you have to decide if you are in the Jineta or Brida camp. Clearly the popular thinking in the western tree design to day is in the Brida camp. So the age old argument goes on. As for the rear of the bar I just flair the rear of it up a bit but I don't really consider it rock. I have found a correlation between rib cage shape and topline profile. In the end the twist rock and flair are all the same and they are just conceptual tools we use to understand the rates of change in the angles and thier directions as they pertain to a composite shape of a horse's back in movement. David Genadek

Wonderful!!!! David Genadek

I have given this concept of using T14 some more thought. I'm having a real hard time understanding why anyone could think that this makes any sense. I'm not an expert on anatomy or equine biomaechanics but I have worked with an internationally respected expert in this area for many years. I contacted her and asked her what I am not understanding here is her reply. (posted with her permission) David, sometimes I do wonder when reading some of these things on the >> Internet, not so much about peoples' level of knowledge or experience -- >> because it is in fact a fairly rare thing that any person would get an >> opportunity to handle a real horse skeleton, let alone under the >> guidance >> of a teacher; so we can forgive them simply not knowing. But there still >> remains the matter of being able to think logically. >> >> It is going too far, in the first place, for anybody to state that >> horses >> "always" are lowest in the back in any one spot. I have seen horses >> whose >> backs had dropped, or were formed low congenitally, right behind the >> withers, more or less in the middle of the freespan, and back in the >> lumbar area. Where the horse's back is low is, further, a unique >> combination in each case, of factors including the horse's overall build >> and body-balance, the strength or weakness of the ligamentous sheathing >> that holds the spinal chain together, the style of training or riding >> the >> horse has previously experienced, his health status and his injury >> history. >> >> As to body balance, this is something I have been pointing out the >> importance of for years. It is the strongest single predictor of how >> easy >> it is going to be for a horse to collect and to carry himself and his >> rider with ease and lightness. As you know, I measure "overall body >> balance" by looking to see how much back-to-front drop there is in a >> line >> drawn from the core of the loins (the center of the lumbosacral joint) >> to >> the center of the C5-C6 neck joint. >> >> But you can also use this line as a predictor of how "jammed" a horse is >> going to be through the shoulders and in the anterior part of the >> freespan; this is only another way to state the "downward tilt" that you >> have noticed to be most useful in saddle design and fitting. In simple >> terms, the more that line slopes downward, the deeper and tighter the >> curve from C5 to T18 is going to be. The bottom of this curve is at the >> base of the neck, where it joins onto the thorax, but the important >> place >> for saddle fitting would be the area right behind the withers, which is >> ahead of C14. This is where it seems to me that most horses are >> "jammed", >> and where correct saddle fit and good horsemanship are going to help >> them >> the most. >> >> Anyone who wants proof of this can take a look at my horses, or my >> students' horses, or those, in a larger sense, that are in our "school", >> because we so often teach the animals to stand up on the circus drum. >> Standing on the drum pushes the whole block of their forequarter up, and >> you can easily see (anyone can take photos and prove it to himself) that >> if you take a real downhill horse, who has a sharp angle or dip at the >> back of his withers and his butt higher than the center of his back, and >> stand him up there on the drum, that the whole withers area, both in >> front >> of it and in back of it, opens out like a fan. The "jam" comes right out >> of their back; they are basculed; they are rounded up -- thanks to the >> effect of the drum. >> >> This sort of horse is hard to train and hard to ride beautifully, >> because >> unless you're riding uphill all the time -- which of course you can't be >> -- then the animal is going to have more trouble lifting himself. A >> skillful horseman can work on this by making sure the animal is >> thoroughly >> laterally suppled, because no horse, not even the most superbly built >> for >> riding, can lift himself and the rider unless he is first laterally >> supple. So you do that for him, and you ask of him many times to >> correctly >> step backwards one step at a time, and you teach him to jump small bars >> and go over cavalletti on the longe line, and you work on correct stops >> where he has to engage his hind end, and all of these things will help >> him >> get strong enough and supple enough so that he lifts and "opens" his >> back >> better when being ridden. But it's still a tough row to hoe. The Germans >> call this type of horse "uberbauen" -- "overbuilt behind" -- and they >> reject them for topclass breeding. >> >> Now as to logic, there is just one more thing, and that is to remind >> your >> correspondents on the Internet saddlers' forum, that if you take a >> tracing >> of a low-backed horse and cut the tracing out of cardboard, you can >> orient >> the cardboard cutout any way you want to. And this is all they're doing. >> You can take any horse at all and rotate him a little (or maybe tilt >> your >> head) and force it to come out that the low spot is "at C14". As an >> anatomist, I say good luck to them also in actually locating C14. In all >> honesty, the best that can be done as to finding EXACTLY which >> intervertebral joint your hand may be on is: you can find C5-C6; you can >> find T18-L1; and you can find L6-Sacrum. Otherwise -- unless they've got >> an X-Ray of the living animal -- they do not know, and there is no way >> to >> know, exactly which joint they are on. >> >> Cheers, and hope this helps. -- Deb David Genadek

Adam, It might be helpful to you if you think of it in terms of a board with two hinges in it. When you engage the hind quarter you will be effecting the rear hinge when you raise the base of the neck you will be effecting the front hinge. David Genadek

For acuracy sakes I'm talking about the long spinous process's that are the whither which can be different leangths and angles. This creates the forward limit of the fit zone and in my paradigm is where the twist of the bar occurs. For those interested in the whither and it's function Dr Bennett did a great article named The Wonder of Whithers that was published in Equus Magizine. While she was writting it we had a great discussion of how the whither related to saddle fit and some where around 2 am we filled a sink with water and started plunging glasses in the sink to get a handle how they might effect the tie in to the rib cage. A fun excercise that can help a saddle maker understand that relationship. I stand corrected on the low point of the back issue but will keep my eyes open for exceptions. My concern with any system is that it will have people fitting poor horsemanship rather than the back as it should be. My purpose here is to offer a contrast to stimulate thought and discussion. It was not a to long ago that it was a common belief that the whither holds the saddle on. It seems Orthoflex helped push that concept away now every one has decided to place the saddles further back . Here is a link to a film of who is perhaps the last of the great masters of the high school. You can see that he has the saddle over the shoulder not on the shoulder and he is sitting at the base of the whither. In my mind a discussion of any fitting system has to begin with where you want the rider to end up sitting. The gap between L6 and the sacrum I think there is actually a name for the gap, Lumbar span which is longer on gaited breeds It can often be broken down due to poor riding this is where I will be looking for the exception to the low point of the back. I hope I'm wrong. David Genadek

Jon, Any good scientist will tell you intuition is what gets the big break throughs. You don't need to agree. My reality in all this has changed many times and I hope it continues to do so. I have had a hard time letting go of many things in both the process of understanding saddle fit and learning to make a living in the saddle business. For me it has been an interesting journey. I started at the high end of things and have since explored nearly every nuance of the business. I started thinking saddle making was about carving and leather work I have since learned there is much more to it than that. I look forward to the day when I feel like my trees are where I want them so I can start doing the creative part of saddle making again. David Genadek

Rod, Ok I see the intent is good. But here is where I have the problem. " Find the lowest spot on your horse’s back" If you call it base of whither or 14th vertibrea I can accept it and think it is great. If you say Lowest point of the back, I then have a problem because the issue becomes very confused. I have attached pictures of two horse's and thier back tracings. In both I have marked the 14th vertibrae in red and the low point of the back in blue. Clearly when you look at the horses they have not been ridden by a skilled rider. Their conformation has been altered. Do you fit that or what their body should look like? If these people used this system would they properly identify the indexing point. Maybe my reference is scewed because I don't do much local buisness and for me I need to get information from a thousands of miles away so for me I need a system that has checks and balances so I can make sure the client has done it properly. Your client is the saddle maker and they can probable make the correct judgement calls. David Genadek

There's talk about a baseline standard, but how could that ever really be established more accurately than it is ? The trick is to fit the horse and not the poor effects of the training. "They're all different horses" If you study the origin of the species you will find the reasons why we have different shapes but you will also discover that there are fewer actual shapes than we are brought to beleave. But it is a personal choice weather you decide to fit the actaul animal or the human effects to his body. I have made a chioce to fit the actual anatomy of the animal and have found that it actually allows room for much of mans negative effect. In regards to different jobs the bio-mechanics do not change by changing your hat. David Genadek

I stand by what I said in the other post. He is choosing referance points that are variable which means the whole system will not allow for accurate comparison from back to back. It is a fine system for micro fitting an individual horse. Personally I don't want to chase that tail. When I began to choose the crest of the wither, base of the wither and last rib it gave me the ability to make comparisons from back to back. In doing that I am defining the important zones those being the Whither area and the ribcage shape. I am capturing lengths and angles. Whithers can be long or short and they can be set at many angles all of which can really effect your fitting zone. David Genadek

I have what we call a back map for every saddle we build. It is the first step of the ordering process. If they are fitting a bunch of horses we choose the bar shape that will fit the majority. Most people like a certain conformation so it usually ends up working out pretty well. David Genadek

Jon, I have done thousands of tracings but they are all based on key anatomical points so that I have a basis of comparison. If you willy nilly pick points you really aren't getting useable data. The system can help you get it right for a given horse at a given moment in time but it does not help you build a base line for normal. That base line is what we all should be pushing for. I have three basic bar shapes right now. I know I will add a few more but they will be for small niche breeds like Icelandics. David Genadek

Jon, I'm not sure where your getting mircro fitting out of this conversation but I will say that my objection to Dennis Lanes Card system is that it promotes micro fitting. There are only so many back types but there are a million ways for the rider to distort the horse's conformation. Because his sytem is not based on key anatomical points, to use it would be to micro fit. Some might feel that is thier job to fit a given horse in a given point in time but I have always found that to be a mistake. Just another choice we all have to make as we choose the markets we are going to target. For the industry to move away from microfitting will mean saddle makers must become versed in horsemanship, anatomy and gait analysis. Personally I send customers packing if I don't feel they have somewhat of grasp on proper horsemanship or at least are willing to learn. If they don't understand the paradigm of straightness you can be assured they will have problems with any saddle. David Genadek

Rod, I see this issue all the time where the rider is so braced against the cantle that they put so much pressure on the stirrup leathers that it does cause a problem. I've seen it on well designed trees and everything in between. Keep in mind I do a lot of clinics where I see a lot novice horseman. I can undersstand how for your clients such a notion might seem odd. David Genadek

David, I am not clear how a tree that fits the shape of the horse's back correctly would have problems in the center of the bar caused by rider error. At the back bar tips – yes, as the horse improperly hollows out his back due to the way he is being ridden, resulting in bridging. Or over the entire back bar pad area if the rider's weight is thrown back, especially if it is one sided due to them leaning to the side as well. But I don't believe a horse can "over round" his back enough under load to create enough increased pressure under the center of the bar to cause problems. So I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. Could you please explain more? Rod, Over the years I have learned that middle doesn't always mean middle it often means where the stirrup leathers are. Doug said "I took these apart and fixed them myself by taking out the back side of the stirrup slot." That could be done with out really effecting the rock. I haven't seen it so I'm not saying one way or the other but I did want to bring up the point that often because the seat is not level it forces the rider to put too much wieght in the stirrup which at times will cause either the stirrup leather to create a dry spot or some times the edge of the stirrup slot will cause a problem. Customers will refer to that as the middle It can often be resolved by creating a level bowl for the pelvis in the ground work and or teaching the rider a better position to sit in. I have also seen horses with trees that fit fine with large areas of dry right where you want the pressure because the were over tightening the cinches. "But I don't believe a horse can "over round" his back enough under load to create enough increased pressure under the center of the bar to cause problems." I totaly agree. I think it is critical that when we are looking at saddle fit that we probe for the truth of the situation and don't jump to the conclusion that it was our mistake. David Genadek

Here are a few hand outs I use at my clinics that may help you put rock into perspective. I do not agree with making a tree bridge so the horse has to round up. If you know anything about how muscles function it becomes clear that such a practice would fire the muscles on the top line and prevent bascule (unless your dealing with a very skilled rider)from happening. Secondly the back does not stay convex all the time in movement. An important concept to understand is that horses do not move away from pressure they move toward comfort. As the back rounds you will loose bearing surface but the horse's posture makes it easier fo him to bear the wieght. A dry spot in the middle can indicate too much rock if that is the case the rigging is doing the job as intended if the saddle tips forward when there is too much rock then that indicates the rigging is an issue as well. Often times dry spots toward the middle are caused by rider error which is either from them not knowing how to ride or the way the ground work has been put in. The tree could also be perfect for the horse but it may be being placed in a position it was not designed for. David Genadek rigging_configuration.pdf thetree.pdf rigging_configuration.pdf thetree.pdf

"Perspective use it or loose it." The reality in the production world is that the fiberglass trees ( the cheap ones) have a smaller breakage rate than rawhide trees. I'm not sure that really tells us anything because the rawhide ones are being used in ropers so the likely hood is greater that they will break. Which brings me to my point. For the vast majority of the saddle market many of the trees are over engineered. I have made thousands of mid range saddles on fiberglass trees and the only one that came back was horse that repeatly slammed the horn in to a beam while it was tied in cross ties. For most of the market shape is the most important element. The customer for most of the saddle markets could give a rip how strong the tree is. I did a search to see what is being said about a line I did on fiberglass covered trees here is what I found: Dreamspirit - Where are you located? I'd love to let you try my saddle on your horse. I have a Black Rhino in a #14.5 seat with a #2 tree. These saddles have the best fit with the MOST room in the shoulders. Many saddles, even ones that are designed for barrel racing, do not offer enough room in the shoulders. At work (Equine Sports Therapy), we see many, many injurues from poorly designed or poorly fitting barrel saddles. When your horse jams into the ground to make that turm, the scapula rotates WAY up and most saddles don't leave the room to allow for that and we see a lot of sore shoulders and sore withers because of it. I also compete mainly at gymkhana and I find this saddle to be incredibly balanced, whether we are jumping fences or turning a barrel. monsterhorse I'm located in Amesbury MA, just north of the NH seacoast. We have already had a little problem with a sore shoulder at the end of the season this year. I have a massage therapist working with her, but as she's almost 9 months pregnant I have to take it slow. The saddle you're talking about sound like what I might be looking for. If you want to e-mail me directly with your asking price and pic, my address is I know I'm going to miss my old Crates terribly though. Oh - no, no, no. I wouldn't SELL my Black Rhino for all the tea in China. Just thought you might want to try one out and see how you like the fit. So much nicer when you can test-ride before you drop the $$$. They're great saddles! But we're down in Northeastern CT, so probably not worth it for you and a very pregnant mare to go for the ride just to take it for a test-drive! The Rhinos are hard to find used and when you do find one, you need to be prepared to buy right away. When people get them, they hang onto them. I spent more money on my Rhino than I spent on my horse! But she feels so good in it that it was worth every penny. It is a great fit and as long as I am riding the QH types, I'll never need to spend another dime on a saddle. In the long run, its worth it. Its an investment. My first western saddle was a $400- deal. It ended up causing major problems with her back. Delilah - They are definitely still made but the waiting list is, from what I have heard, like 6 months. That's why so many people want to find them used, which is why the prices are so steep on them. You can find them used and in great condition for about $1500- but you need to scoop them up RIGHT AWAY. My aunt just found one online for about $1200-, which was a STEAL. I see them a lot for $1600- and $1700-. Keep in mind these saddles were built on cheap Steele trees but they were made to my specs in terms of shape. They retailed for around a thousand dollars. Now ten years later they have nearly doubled in value and as I have said I have not had a single broken tree. I will honestly state the fiberglass was poorly done on those trees but it doesn't seem to have made a difference. To the consumer the shape and the performance of the horse is what is important. Would I use that kind of tree on a roper? No way in BLEEP. I don't think I would hesitate to use one that was properly done with fiberglass or carbon fiber. Although there is a tradition with the rawhide that makes you fight the market perception of the fiberglass. Kinda like asking a cowboy to wear a helmet. David Genadek

The University of Winona has all the equipment to do all the standard stress tests. When I'm flush and can afford to destroy a bunch of trees I think I will try to get some real numbers on these things. We are all deluded if we think we can build a saddle that a horse can't tear apart at will. David Genadek

As you define the market you will be building for your tree choice will become clear. David Genadek

That is way cool!!! I took a quick look at thier forum and bam right away came across a great example of using positive and negetive space to play with the eye. That is such a great use of that stamp. US carvers watch out for China! David Genadek