David Genadek

I work with a yacht designer on my 3d models for my trees so he is extremely up on composite materials. We are playing with the idea of doing some fiberglass or carbon fiber trees. I am convinced that if we use the proper resin with the proper fabric it will be as good perhaps better than the rawhide. I'm not sure if there will be any cost advantage or wieght advantage at this point. Much of what is being done in the market is not done properly so it is hard to say. It used to be that you would cover a tree in canvas to make a cheap tree I suppose that gave way to fiberglass. A few years ago I did a project with the University of Winona which has one of the top composite material programs in the US. We took two groups of students and they had to design a saddle tree for ther senior project. From that I learned a lot about composite materials. You could build a balsa wood tree with carbon fiber that would be ungodly strong. It would probable cost more than a traditional tree to produce though. David Genadek

I remember when the whole truck bed liner thing began. One might think that someone did a bunch of research and found it was the product to use however as I recall it really came about because a man with no tree building experience purchased a tree company. Having trouble getting the rawhideing done he came up with the truck bed liner spray. Everyone has touble getting the rawhiding done, so the guy went around to the other tree makers and got them to send trees to him to cover. Everyone liked the idea of not having the head ache of the employees to do the rawhiding. There was no stress testing done back then and to date I have not heard of any. I tried them and found that the stuff peeled off. Could be that it is better now but why don't we insist on factual data? They are also heavier than rawhide. For most of the market it probable won't matter because most middle aged women are not going to put much stress on a saddle. What bothers me is the that custom makers always kept the manufacturers honest by setting the standards of quality in the industry. It used to be that the manufacturers tried to copy the custom makers. I sure hope that trend is not reversing. David Genadek

I heard traffic was down this year but sales were good. This is what always seems to happen when things get tough the hard core horse people stick with it no matter what and those stores that focus on seriouse horse people survive. This would not be good time to focus on the entry level of the market but then few on this list would anyway. David Genadek

John, Do your have the Url for thier forum? My daughter studies chinese and she can translate for me. I wonder if there is a program that could bridge the language gap that would allow them to join this forum? I was wondering about the leather because when I looked at the work the skill level seemed high but still it was missing a crispness which I thought was the leather.I saw the same thing in Thailand with the carver I met there. He let me try his leather which was from Australia and it was tough stuff. I just sent him some sharp tools to see if it helps. I will go back later this year and hope to get to try some of the leathers with sharp tools to see if it is as bad as it seemed. I know Bill Gomer went to Tiawan to teach carving. I find the quality of design very interesting. I really think our culture has lost a lot of fundamental design sense. It is like we just don't have the correct mind set in the US to do really great work any more. I don't mean it doesn't exsist on an individual basis but as culture you will not find a group of people that would work for a company to do great craftsmanship. It is a major issue in the saddle industry right now which I beleave leaves the industry wide open for the east to come in and gain market share. India has made an effort but that culture seems to lack an understanding of form to function so they have not been able to penetrate anything but the lower tears of the market. David Genadek

I don't know Bob didn't talk about them much. I asked him once and he said they didn't care about the leather stuff then Jolly piped in and told me they lived in Orange county. You could contact the Cowboy hall of fame to see what they know. The Historical sociaty in Big Bear City could be of help also. Bob was very active in that. Bill Gomer spent some time with him too. David Genadek

I called Hemann Oak and posed the question to them and it turns out we are all right. The cold in itself should not pose a problem. The moisture will, so if it gets wet it should be dried out before you stick it back in the cold barn. For those of us who live in a cold damp climate a heated tack room makes some sense. With that said I will say in our tack room we have articles that are over 50 years old and still in good shape, for most of thier life they have been stored in a a cold barn. They used to need to get oiled twice a year now we are down to once a year. It takes about a week to get through the whole pile. Keeping it in a nice climate controled tack room gives us an extra week every year. David Genadek

A few years ago I participated in a thing called the Horse Gathering which as a week long eduction clinic for hores owners. One of the people that was involved is an expert in adult education and he presented on how people learn. We had horse people from all over the world and experts in every area of horsmanship but that presentatioin is the one that really grabbed people. My point is why don't we have people like you giving presentations on how to create programs and teach at leather shows? I think instead of everyone complaining about Tandy we should help them build the craft. David Genadek

None that I know of. It is hard because so much of it is just the perspecitve of an individual. Bob Brown was pretty credible because he considered himself a historian and he had documentation on everything. On the other hand someone like Barnes you have to sort through what your told. Barnes liked to make a point that he went and urinated on Tandy's grave so I suppose if you compiled enough info you might get a cogent line of thuoght. Verlane and I used to compare notes on things and it was always fun to look at things from all the diffrent views. Browns daughters may have some info avalible from his perpective. He was pretty bitter about some of the things that had happened. When artist meet business that is bound to happen. David Genadek

http://equimeasure.com/

Brandon, It started off as a trip for Liz to help with some Gait research but schedules got changed and we already had tickets and no time to change the schedule so they hooked us with soe mahoots and we rode elephants for a few days. Any one can go do this and it is a really cool experience. The Thai government has set up an elephant sanctuary in Lampang in conjunction with the foresty service. They are working to save the elephants in Thailand. Here is a link to a gallery of shots of elephants. Here is a link to shots of other things. Lastly here are some flowers. Elephants are big deal there so I thought it was funny to see the elephant on cow being sold as the real thing all over the place in the markets. I visited one leather factory and told them I had a factory in the US so we had a good chat. They did also have real exotics and when I asked about the certification they were johnny on the spot with it. David Genadek

I get a lot of them in but the guy focuses on the whithers so they really aren't long enough to tell you how much rock so you have to tell them to get the extension that they sell. I find I get just as good information by having them do a back map. It is a lot cheaper and gives them a training tool that they can use to see if thier training techniques are working. It also gives me information I can plug into a data base. Any method is only as good as your ability to analyze the horse manship and how it is affecting the conformation of the animal. In my opinion you do not want to start making a tree for every individual horse. Most horse's will fall into a back type once you have addressed all the horsemanship issues. If you don't there will be problems. It is pretty hard to talk riggings when there is no consensus on where a saddle should fit and how it should fit. Although there is an abundance of information in regarding actual bio mechanics our craft tends to lean toward a regional consensus of confusions so with in a market if you adhere to that you will find success if it works or not. Saddle fit is a complex problem that involves the shape of the horse (which is dependant on the horsemanship) the shape of the human and the dynamics of all the movement. There is an endless array of interpretations of how all these things come together. My advice to everyone trying to learn is to learn the anatomy, understand the biomechanics and then worry about the politics. David Genadek

I'm not saying it will ruin them I'm saying they will require more care to get them to last as long. So if you have a choice keep them in a better enviroment. If you don't have the choice then make sure you do the proper care. We all choose the standards in which we live our lives. Around here we don't break horses we fix them. David Genadek

Did she also give you a certificate to show it was legal? Is the real thing or just elephant on cow? They use a lot of elephant on cow in Thialand and they sell it as elephant. David Genadek

You will find the same problems with those as you do with any other poorly fitting tree. With the rigid front and cantle they can not flex where they would really need to to make the correction to fit the different shapes. You can not shim them to correct the problem either because the flexible bar un does what your trying to do. Your explanation was good about there being pressure in the wrong place before it can bend. The fronts and cantles generally act as bic C clamps causing pressure points. Also the way the seats and fenders are set will further the problem. Tucker started with field trial people and they are not real interested in horsemanship. They build Brida saddles and I'm a major out spoken critic of that style of riding. That brings me to the fact that if your friend is of that mind they could be very happy with the saddle but I can guarentee the horse won't be. David Genadek

A big Amen to what Rod said! David Genadek

There are flexible trees and rigid trees. You can't have both in one tree. If you have a flexible bar you need a flexible front and cantle or it is like buying a really flexible fishing rod and putting it inside a pipe. All these manufacturers are looking for is a simple way around saddle fit and to date I have not seen a flexible bar with a rigid front and cantle that does not cause problems. Thier market is the new horse owner that does not know better. Look at the picture of the man on the horse. I sure wouldn't buy anything from some one that used that as an example of good unless I just didn't know any better. David Genadek

In Minnesota we feed our horses lots of hay in the winter so they can stay warm. If you have ridden a horse in the winter you realize they put off a lot heat. Following the logic that you should keep things an even temperature, would go to the side of keeping the tack inside and warm. How many of you would like an ice cube stuck on your back? Or a ice cube stuck on your face? How many of you warm your car up before you drive it? Does the cold oil make it easier to start or harder? I now have a heated garage too and I will tell you I am haveing a lot less vehicle trouble. Isn't there oil in the leather? If the oil doesn't perform a function why do we oil it? How can it perform that function in freezing temperatures? Granted the horse will warm everything up and even get it wet. If your saddle blanket gets all sweaty do you just let it freeze until next time you use it? David Genadek currently at a wind chill of 35 below

Johanna, Having spent time with Bob Brown and Ellis Barnes I have been given several versions of the beginnings of the craft. Bob did what I beleave was the first instruction packet on leather craft. They sold some but not a lot in fact he still had a bunch that I brought to the federation show and sold 40 years later. Brown had two students that would end up shaping Tandy as we know it. One was T Joey Smith and the other Al Stohlman. Brown gave Smith a set of tools that he brought to Dick Mc Ghan (sp) that ended up being craftool. Smith was also responsable for many of the original designs sold through Tandy. What Charles Tandy really brought to the market was distributrion. As an artist Brown could blow Stohlman out of the water but he ended up working for the sherifs department because he had no distribution and none of his high end clients payed him. Stohlman found away of making a living through Tandy. The craft would not be where it is today with out those alignments. The thing to understand though is that this craft is a tough way to a make a living and Tandy love them or hate them have allowed the art to expand. Stohlman took Brown's ideas and really expanded them in the carving area. Now people like Peter Main and Paul Burnett are adding to that. David Genadek

I agree with Blake. In the end there is no learn how to make a saddle. You do need to get enough under your belt so you have the confidance to understand that it is a personal journey with no end. What you need to do that, is up to you. Is there any school that you can go to and walk away a saddle maker? NO Saddle making is a practice. As you practice your skills and understanding will expand. Doctors don't do medicine they practice medicine. Lawyers don't do law they practice law. Saddlemakers practice saddle making. So you start how ever you can. If a week is what you can do now then that is a start. If it gives you enough to go home and start banging out some saddles that you can start paying your way with then it has done what it should have. Talk to everyone you can to make your decision, but if they tell you you will be a saddle maker when you are done it probable isn't a very good school. Avoid schools or teachers that have a this is the only way attitude. There are over a 110 breeds in the US each of those has multiple diciplines and each of those has many religions with in them. Which riding philosophy do you want to learn to build for Jineta, Brida, Estriota? Are you shooting for a horizontal or vertical market? Bottom line is that there is no mistake to be made in your choice. Whatever you do will add to your saddle practice. David Genadek

There could be million reasons but usually you discontinue an item because it doesn't turn enough times to justify the space it takes. David Genadek

If you want a true pink you won't be able to do it with a dye. A pink dye will fade pretty fast so will need to use a paint. Most show finders will carry good products for doing this but to get a professional look you will need to spray it. Dyo was always the main company for shoe redying but they recently blew up and sold to LCI which has a $100.00 minnimum but I'm sure they could direct you to a jobber that could get you a small quanity of pink. David Genadek

It is a corperation and the job of the management is to create return on the investment. If we want to complain we have to be able to give that return. If they invest in the quality are we willing to pay the price to make it worthe thier while. With what has happened to Hidecrafters I would say no we are not. The other part of this is numbers there is not enough volume of people doing this craft to make it pay. It would be very easy to duplicate Bob Beards tool line down to every nuance and have them done in China but the 3d modeling would take some investment. Is there enough people to make that pay. I would say no or Bob would have done it by now. In my mind the best thing we can all do is start teaching and sharing our love of the art. David Genadek

Just a thought it used to be done by making the cuts into leather then laquering it. The Poly is way cheaper but harder to cut. David Genadek

I have done thousands of square feet of patterns using the low density poly. I just use a swival knife and cut it in. A bit of dish soap on the blade helps. David Genadek

John, This is the first tooling I've seen out of China. I was just in Thailand and was extremly impressed with the quality of cratsmanship I saw there. I did stop in one leather shop in Chiang Mai and talked to a tooler there. He was totaly self taught and had never seen anyone else tool yet his work was very good. He was using some leather from Australia and it was not as nice as what we get here. Is your veg tanned comeing from China or elsewhere? Are these toolers just doing work for you or are they finding demand in other areas too? In Thailand I saw some of the best copiers I have ever seen but didn't see a whole lot of cutting edge creativity there. Is it similier in China? David Genadek