David Genadek

Johanna, Best to think of it in terms of compression rather than friction. David Genadek

Pete, I would love to do that but now I'm 40 saddles behind and it is getting nice out and people are screaming. I'm not haveing much luck finding help so right now I would feel guilty if I took the time to do something fun. David Genadek

Clay, What I am saying will become clear in time but it is a different way of looking at it all so it will seem foriegn at first. It can be a tough emotional transition you have to let go of what you think you know and de tandinize yourself. In regard to adding a petel Clay M is well intended and is correct for the Sheridan style. I have attached a picture of the essence of the sheridan style. When propely done the sheridan style should be properly proprotioned scrolls ending in a five ponted star that shoud fit inside a pentagon. When you look at Chester Hapes work you will see this. The dog wood has a different proportional base which is an octogon. If you draw a rectangle around the one of the petals you will find that if you divide one side of the rectangle by the other it will come up .6. This is Gods Rule follow it and your work will look great. The below pictures are not perfect they are fast examples to demonstrate a point. David Genadek

Clay, I sure didn't mean to diminish your list in anyway because it was great too. Verlane had the cutting ,sewing and grading scale too. It is literally an outline for how to get good. So your outline is about the same it means you have done the mental work to do great leatherwork and ta-da the proof is in the pudding. David Genadek

Clay, I don't know what kind of gell they use on motorcycle seats but I was at Equine Affaire a few years back and there was a guy that was really pushing the gell for the saddle seats. He would make them the shape you wanted and everything. I have been staying off the speaker circut for a few years so I don't hit the big shows any more so I'm a bit out of touch but some one At Equine Affaire might be albe to help. Tucker was useing it too, I'm not sure if they still are but he could give them call. It was the rage for a while but it seemed to fizzle for variouse reasons. The technlogy may have advanced since then though. David Genadek

Clay, The second one is fine but in my mind it is a step backward. In the first one you are reaching for some higher levels of design in the second your going with same ole same ole. One of the things I saw in the first one was your use of the design over lapping the border. I think you need to be more deliberate with that so it clearly establisheses a pattern. Alternating the over lap from side to side is a cool idea. That creates a battle for position betwen the flowers and the border. Niether quite wins. If you were to make the initials larger and overlap the border on both sides the intials would become the winner and the most prominate part of the design. I have drawn the flow line as I see it in this space with what you are trying to do. Note that I drew scrolls because they contain the golden proportions so it will give the elements a natural proportion and be pleasing to the eye. The end of a scroll is where you place the flower. Scrolls will form S's but S's don't necesarilly form scrolls. Now it doesn't matter how much fill you put in as long as everything moves the eye to along that line one way or another. David Genadek

Wow You guys make acrylics sound like a nasty thing. I admit if used wrong they can sure turn a piece to plastic but when used right you can do lot. I've attached a picture that my leahter Ma ma Carol Gehrman did. I see a lot of detail in this. Carol is really good with the acrylics and she makes a really good pecan pie too. One of the problems with the spirit dyes is the fade over time. Bob Brown used food dyes.

Clay, I think this is a really nice piece. The carving is stunning. Personally I don't think you should try to apply the rules of traditional connected stem floral carveing to this piece. What I think you are picking up on is not what is wrong with the flow but rather what is off with the proportions. This is the number one problem people have with drawing thier designs. There is a set of design rules that should be followed they are the same ones God uses and if you learn them it is pretty hard to make things look bad. A really good book on the subject is the Power of Limits by Gyorgy Doczi any one that designs anything should study this book. Flow is important but when laying out a design you should think proportion first by laying out the stem first then adding the flowers. To do other wise would be like putting down all the punctuation in a story before you wrote the sentences. Here is a link that has some info on my teacher Bob Brown. In the pdf you will find an instruction booklet that has a few pages called pattern creation it is a great technique that can free you in ways that you couldn't imagine. I will be doing a class on how to draw using Bobs methods at the federation show. David Genadek

Charly, I have attached a pdf of an evaluation form that Verlane Desgrange posted on another list. This is the best effort I have seen for this type of thing. Verlane has put a lot of effort into this topic so she is some one you may want to contact. David Genadek 2_project_evaluations.pdf 2_project_evaluations.pdf

Mahatma Gandhi said: "All religions are equally true and false. True because they are issued by God false because they are administered by man." Look at the atrocities committed by Hitler most of which came down directly from the teachings of Martin Luther, or what about the crusades? So the Christian religion doesn’t need to look far to find its war like nature too. Perhaps it is mans weakness polluting the good in the universe whatever religion they are hiding behind. I agree that the Muslum leaders should speak out but then the Christian leaders should be speaking out about Busch. Perhaps we should all take a lesson from Buddha and seek the middle. You might enjoy a movie called What the Bleep Do We Know. Here is a group of people trying to change the attitude of the world. Quantum mechanics is teaching us that attitude is everything right down to the cellular level. David Genadek

Ed, There are 38 spools in the case looks like we used a few. With the box it wieghs 46.8 so if you want the whole case we could say 40lbs. Dave

oops I forgot to put the size 207

I was just organizing my shop and found a case white Dabond Polyester Thread that I don't have much use for any more. I would let it go for $10.00 a pound which is about half price. Any one interested can contact me at 507 346 2766. David Genadek

I don't think there is any question that you get a better job if you bevel but you can get close if you really lean the back ground tool and use it as a beveler. It is a pay the bills technique not a do the finest work you can technique. An average joe wouldn't be able to tell the differance but you wouldn't want to do it if you were entering a piece in a competition. If your going to inlay dye you are way better off to bevel because it really allows you to go fast on the dying. If it's your hobby then who cares sit back and enjoy it all. David Genadek

Usually the question is if you should bevel the areas where you back ground. Often you just use the background tool as a beveler to speed things up. However if your going to inlay dye it I take the time to bevel becouse the compressed fibers acts as a barrier for the dye. You don't want to dye the leather first because the compresion of the tool can stretch the fibers and expose areas that did not get good dye penatration and then you have to go back and redye it. A little practice and you will get the hang of it. You will make mistakes though and that is why they say you can always dye it black. I was really glad to hear that you are trying to move beyond antique. Growing up I was taught that only beginners used antique and if someone did antique they wouldn't place at a show but now it is all the rage. I'm not saying there isn't a place for it but I am glad you are reaching beyond it. David Genadek

Yes it was yours and I thought your efforts were commendable but was saddend by the response you have gotten. I checked out your site and think you are making good realizations and your background in physics is much needed in this profession. You will not find what you are looking for as you can see the industry has not evolved to the point where they can even see the reality yet. I can make the trees you are looking for but I would only help you if you could submit a plan for the saddle you plan to build. If you would be willing to let me aid you in the design and help you learn how to execute it properly with a functional tree then I would be willing to help. I have furnished saddles to several handicapped riding programs so I am very familier with the problems you are facing. There was a great deal more that needed to be said but you will find things that need to be said don't find there way to the list if they don't agree with president of the guilds view of things. David Genadek

I would just like to let you all know that I have nothing against Bowden trees and I think Arlen does a good job on the trees and very good for the price point. I also think he is a really good person. My biggest gripe was his crew didn't seem to be able to properly mark things and it cost me a ton of money. However I was asking for things that were out of his norm. My point is that there are many niche markets and in the industry and before you pick a tree maker to work with you first need to understand your own market and what your own goals are then it is a process of trial and error until you find a good match. For me after years of extensive research I felt there needed to be some major changes in tree design so I first tried to get existing tree makers to make those changes for me. After many years of frustration I decided I needed to do it myself and did. Now I have the consistency and variation of shapes to allow me to do the job in such way that I no longer feel like a con man. I will agree that for many that say they are experts in saddle fit are just pulling a big con and they do not have the background or experience to do the job. This is equally true in all professions. As far as Equine chiropractic goes you can spot the cons when they tell you that they need to keep coming and ignore the soft tissue element of the equation. Equine dentistry is also full of poorly trained people making a fast buck at the expense of the horse. This however does not negate the extreme importance of Equine dental any more than bad ferriers negate the need for proper hoof care. I agree every one should make an effort to get educated enough to know the difference between people who really do know enough to help and those that are just cons. As far an epoxy covered trees go I can certainly understand the opinions expressed but I must say I believe they are more a reflection of poor technique in the use of the materials than they are an accurate reflection of the materials. The person I use to create my 3d shapes, designs yachts for a living. Last time he was here he saw a couple of epoxy and fiber glassed trees that I had here and he did not believe how poorly they were done. Lets face it if the epoxy's were as stiff as you have been led to believe We would have planes falling out of the sky at unbelievable rates and boats sinking faster than they could build them. I just spent a day in Seattle at a major boat supply house learning about Epoxy's and lamination techniques and I believe at this point when properly done these materials can be used to create a tree of equal strength to rawhide. Frank, the 3d designer, built a catamaran ten years ago that has survived two hurricanes it would have been snapped in half if epoxy's were stiff and brittle. If epoxy’s and laminations are used right that simply is not true. I rawhide all my trees though. David Genadek

Gary, I’ll give you my opinion of the state of tree making in the US and I present it as an opinion as I know many of my fitting concepts are contrary to the current paradigm of the industry. However, my opinions are backed by biomechanical facts. As a rule the paradigms that the tree makers are currently using have been shaped by traditions that have been passed along through families. In short many of them are working off patterns that were developed over a hundred years ago. Today in the United States there are over 110 breeds represented and there are more horses here than there ever has been. Although despite the numerous breeds and proliferation of rib cage shapes, the current paradigm of the industry is that saddle fit happens in the whither area and can be accommodated by just widening the gullet. This is where poor saddle fit makes it self-apparent but good saddle fit happens over the rib cage. This confusion has led to a fixation on the gullet of the saddle and gullet angle. Although these elements have an effect they are currently distracting the industry from creating fit in the middle where the focus should be. This can only be achieved by thinking in terms of shape and not width. Therefore, when you ask about who makes a quality tree you would need to first state what your definition of quality is. Saddle makers are generally taught that fit is the realm of the tree maker. Of course we are all one of the best saddle makers and we all have the best tree maker but if we would like to solidify our position in the industry and command a greater margins we should not believe our own publicity. If you are looking for quality of parts and the quality of the coverings each company has a place in the market. If your looking at proper fit each is equally dysfunctional. So the other questions you need to ask is what segment of the horse industry are you trying to target and what price point do you need to hit. Ralide (I am a former employee of their parent company) of course is designed for the lowest end of the market. Originally these trees were developed by Dan Crates (when he owned Simco) in cooperation with Plastics Industries. There original purpose was to create a near disposable saddle for a grandfather to buy a grandchild so they could go ride a pony a few times. Their biggest flaw is not the material they are made of but the fact that on many models the seat is lower than the bars, which sets the rider directly on the spine. Steele saddletree is next in the price progression. There are two Steele’s the son Eddy and the father, who don’t get along very well. Eddy runs Steele Saddle Tree Company, which is the largest manufacturer of western trees in the world. It used to be that most of their trees were fiber glassed today he is doing a molded flex tree which is killing horses. Eddy is the most skilled pattern maker in the industry however he focuses his efforts on the large companies. His father makes custom trees. There was another brother involved but he and Eddy didn’t see eye to eye so Eddy quit and went to work for a foundry then his brother burned the factory down and Eddy came back and gained control again and rebuilt the factory. The next level is where you will find cheaper rawhide covered trees and the coated trees. The main players on this level are Bowden (The part of the company that is run by Arlen, his dad, Francis does higher end custom trees.) and Hadlock and Fox. I have never used Hadlock and fox but I have used Bowden. Arlen made to many mistakes and cost me $80,000.00 one year so I got pissed off and started my own tree company. I did find Francis Bowden to have a good grasp of things but he has resigned himself to doing what the saddle makers request and my impression was that he is bit bitter about it all. Funny we tell our customers we have the best tree maker in the world and the tree maker says he does what the saddle maker tells him to do. In the end we all need to get a data base of back shapes and create a standards right now that doesn’t exist at any level so our whole industry isn’t much more than a big marketing con game. The third level is all the smaller tree makers which seem to be getting pretty numerous but if they are good or not will depend on your needs. There are limits imposed on the tree makers due to the nature of the duplicating equipment they use. Today’s technology should be changing that. I use a five-axis router to cut my parts, which we have developed using digitized backs. In reality bars need a double twist and the bottom of the bar should be concave. Traditional methods of tree production inhibit this from happening. However it is cheaper for me to buy trees from other makers. So from my perspective the trees being produced are not cutting it the real world unless your clients have a particular build of horse. If your building for running QH you may have pretty good luck with standard trees. So you pretty much pick who you get along the best with and con your way around the problems with the customers. Fortunately most of them don’t have a clue so if you buy them a drink and make them feel good they will tell everyone to buy for you. David Genadek

Blake, I've been looking for help for months and have been getting more response on my adds from other saddle makers wanting me to send extra applicants thier way. There doesn't seem to be much interest in saddlemaking as a career anymore. There has been a shortage of saddlemakers for years. This means there is an ever growing opportunity in our industry. I know I could easily keep 15 or 20 makers going if I could find decent people instead I raise prices and give bad service to keep the orders under control. For the past several years I have been training Amish because it is type of work they like. I pay them the same as I would the English so I am very well recieved in the community but it is a lot of extra work when your crew is at a different location. I think part of the issue is that as a rule leather workers don't charge enough for thier work. I have looked at some of the guides that are out there for pricing saddles and they are joke. Second thing you don't have to be in this to long before you realize you have to know a whole lot more about horsemanship to be successful than most saddlemakers ever dream of. Unfortunately, saddle schools teach techniques of construction but nothing in the way of saddle design theory. I have been watching a discussion on another list about saddle trees, it is very sad. How ignorant our profession must seem to serouse horseman. David Genadek

Right now I'm thinking I'll go with the Cat 6 cable, price wise it isn't that much more and it sounds like I'm pushing the limits on distance so I'm thinking the Cat 6 might help that but I have no factual basis for that assumption other than thinking that if it can carry more it should be able to carry less further. What I can do is run the cable about a hundred feet and bring it into my shop if there is something that I can plug it into to boost signal. I am concerned about address conflicts if I use another router. Should I worry about that or just run the cable the whole way? David Genadek

Thank you! This is very helpful. The person that will be using this set up hates computers so I need to make everything as simple as possible. Besides I only have a vague idea how to set up a network. So I wanted something that is easy to set up that she can work on just like it is her regular computer. If she had to start picking drives to save files to it would cause a lot of frustration. I didn't consider needing special cable to bury. I installed power to the barn so I ran a special conduit the whole way for the cable. Will that take care of any special needs for the cable? I did wireless to my shop which is about a 100 ft from the router but then installed a cable which I have better luck with. Part of my problem is that the shop and the barn are lower than the house where the router is. The buildings are metel too which didn't help matters much. I didn't invest in the better antenne's though because with all things considered it seemed cheaper to just run the cable. I buy most of my stuff from Tiger Direct. On the Cat 6 do you have to change the order of the wires when you put the ends on or is that the same as the Cat 5? I have a netgear router that I can do cables or go wireless with. I like the wireless in the house because we almost always have someone staying with us and that gives them freedom with thier laptops. One day I will get these con founded machines working well enough that I can do leather work again. Sigh, I shouldn't complain because they allow me to live in the sticks and sell all over the world but boy have I wasted a lot of time and money on getting them functional. Thats why we all need to charge more for our leather work so we can afford to hire computer geeks to come help us. David Genadek

Monkey, I have a networking questions for you. I am looking at setting up a remote terminal in a tack room thats about 250 feet from the main computer. I am thinking I'm going to use an n computing terminal http://www.ncomputing.com/ncomputing/products/typel200.php I'm running XP Professional on that machine it doesn't sound like the N computing units run Vista yet but they are working on it. I don't plan on upgrading to vista until they figure out all the kinks. Have you had any experiance with the Ncomputing products? Is there a better way to get this done? What is the differance between Cat 5 and Cat 6 cables? Would I be better off running Cat 6? David Genadek

Looks like a natural oil to me. I would guess your looking at a certain leather oil combination that is getting that color. You could call them and ask which tannery they use and what kind of oil they reccomend on their holsters. One color a lot of manufactures use is called Pen surf Yellow that gives a piece a bit more brightness after it is oiled which they may have done. However,taking internet into account I would bet on natural oil. I do a lot of British Tan and I don't see that there but what I see on my screen could be way different than what everyone else is seeing. A sad reality we all need to consider when talking color. David Genadek

Regis, It is hard to get clean leather like in years gone by. This hunk also shows signs of Urin damage, that is the pitted look. This was probable a feed lot cow. The time of year has a big effect on the hide quaility too. Last order I got from Herrmann Oak was very ruff and inconsistant. Before that I was getting really good sides. These are tough times on the tanners with growth hormones throwing a wrench in the works along with shrinking arsenal of tools due to EPA regulation. David Genadek

Mathew, Do you mean edgers? Bevelers shouldn't need to be sharp unless your talking about an undercut bevelers? I worked for Ellis Barnes who owns Hackbarth Gomph tools. Ellis taught me to use a dremel tool with a hard felt wheel that we would shape to the edger. If you need to do more aggressive shaping then you can use a Kratex wheel for that. I use this for all my odd sharpening jobs. One of the keys is to keep a finger close to the edge so you can feel if you are over heating the metel. You can pick one of these up at a home depot pretty cheap. I purchased a bunch of Tim the toolman models for like $10.00 a peice in a close out so I have one on every bench for sharpening edgers. Ellis would get his kicks by shaping the edgers so they would hop off the belts and slice our hands. I quickly learned to do it myself. Despite his cruel games I did learn that it is an indispensable tool to have in your shop. Weaver makes a board with strips of leather you can put rouge on and manually touch up your edgers with. If your trying to sharpen undercut Bevelers then I would get a rotory tool of some sort. You can get wheels and attachments in bulk from Jewlery supply houses. Get safety glasses too? You may mess up a few tools when learning to get the edges the way you need them but long term the cost of the learning curve is worth it becouse a project can not get any better than the cutting. David Genadek