David Genadek

Then the real question is how do we use spell check? Where is it? Hey we are a bunch of leather heads. David Genadek

Art, Somehow I thought you would know the real scoop. I have been very happy with my Adler 205-370 for heavier work. I've had it 14 years I got it from Crates Leather Company and I think it was about 5 years old when I got it from them. I have had to time it a few times when people have run it in to buckles and such but I have never had to do a major tear down with it. I used to have a Ferdinand 988 when he first came out with them. I think he used to build from Adler heads and the first two heads he sent just didn't cut it. The needle system was more than the machine could handle. Then he swtiched to useing Consew 206 heads and that 988 was a great machine and the most versitale machine I have had. I liked my Cambell but got rid of it because the learning curve on it was to tough for employees. I worked one place where we ran Landis 16s and they were a fine machine if you were used to them but for production I think it is tough to beat the Adler on the heavy work. The needle awl machines give a great stitch but you have to know how to talk nice to them or they have troubles. I haven't used the Juki or Artisen machines though. I will have to take a look at them. David Genadek

If we are to be professionals and command professional prices then we must offer a level of expertise beyond that of the average horse owner. I am not currently doing custom saddles I will customize them to a degree but I will only do a custom tree if I feel the horse is of a back type I will see again and again. For instance I just did a tree for a Gypsy Varner and there is no way they could have found what they needed elsewhere. My business is built on proper fit. The majority of my customers have gone through 5 to 10 saddles before they come to me. The come to me because I can help them get the result they want which is comfort for both them and thier horse. They come ot me because I can show and explain to them why things are doing what they are doing. Dusty, You said that there are three variables the horse the Human and the saddle. Here is the beginning of your fuzzy thuoght process. Those are not vairables they are catagories of vairables. Under the horse you really only have two vairables rib cage shape and orientation. Both of these are just part of the conformation of the horse. Ribcage shape can change to a small degree relative to the angles that the ribs come off the spine because there is a joint there but there is not a lot of flexibility there so it is minnimul factor in the equation. However there are different angles on differnt ribcage shapes and that is why twist shoud not be left out of the tree equation. The top line is the most variable because of the up and down undulations and because of it's relationship to the horses ring of muscles. Bottom line is anything that effects the horses ring of muscles will effect saddle fit. The most fundamental element to consider here is straightness. A horse is straight when when it's sternum is in the center of it's two front legs. They do not have a collar bone like we do so this is a critical element of horsemanship. If they are not straight they can not collect if they are straight they will collect.The concept of straightness combned with a fundamental knowledge of how the ring of muscles works gives the saddle maker the ability to assess if the horse is in a physical state that a tree should be fit to it. Suddenly it is not so overwelming. Orientation is found by looking at the horses base of neck relative to the point of hip. The saddles oreintation should be directly opposite the horses. Not so hard. Now lets take the human catagory. Like the horse they must be straight and using their ring muscles. Then we have to throw in hieght and wieght but these things are easily taken care of with seat size and fender leangth. Lastly we have the most important varable in the human which is the philosophical mind set. There has been batle between two major philosophies since the beginning of horsemanship. The two philosophies are Jineta and Brida. Jineta is what we would call a balanced seat today. Part of this mind set is that the horse is a partner and the equipment is designed for communication. Brida is the seat that evolved from Joiusting. Legs forward butt plastered against the saddle. Jineta saddles evolved into western saddles and Brida saddles evolved into English saddles. However today the philosophies are very mixed together and you will find both seats in english and western. In western saddlery we used to call Brida saddles parade saddles and Jineta saddles work saddles. Here Dusty lies one of your greatest confusions you ar putting brida seats in work saddles so it is no wonder you are drawing the conclusions you are drawing. If you become deliberate in your seat shapes your perspective will quickly change. Your concepts on the cincching will also alter greatly. If you choose Brida over Jineta then you are right saddle fit is not part of your reality. But for those of use who choose Jineta it is. I accept this as an age old battle and respect your right to pursue your Brida reality. I however, stand firmly in the world of Jineta. Lastly we have the a variables in the saddle . These are all defined by the shapes created by the variable in the horse and human. First the tree the bars have twist rock and flair and they are combined by the front and back arches to create the saddles orientation. Then we have seat size which will be dictated by the humans shape and thier riding philosphy. The fender shape and leangth will be dictated by the same. So it really isn't an impossible situation when you have the right paradigems to work from. You have preconditions to saddle fit. The horse must be straight and properly using it's ring of muscles and like wise with the human or there will be problems. The saddle must accomadate the varaibles in both. There are a limited number of ribcage shapes in horses which becomes very apparent when you learn to see just the rib cage and don't let the rest of the horses conformation confuse you. The electronic pads could be good tool but I agree that they get miss used. In fact I made public statements to that effect at many expos so was I challenged by one of the companies to demonstrate during one of thier demos. I went first and had to say what the readind would be. Now I couldn't tell the pounds per inch but I didn't miss a hot spot then I took it one step further and and showed how to make it even which the folks with pad had no clue how to do. So in those few minutes I demonstrated to several hundred people that I had the knowledge that could actually help them and thier horse. One of my mentors ,Dan Crates, alwasy said " The second you start believeing your own publicity your in trouble." David Genadek I'm with Blake on the spell check, although it usually pops up a message that says "We Have No Clue What Your Trying to Spell" Does anyone else get that message

Regis, I think the thing that might be confusing you is that your thinking about the machine as the total unit but the industry thinks in terms of Head, Table, Motor,accesories. So you pick the head ,or machine, you like then you figure out which table you want and then which motor. Then do you want any pnumatics thread trimmers, attachments on and on. In a production envoroment machines are set up for very specific uses so Machine guys are really used to customizing set ups. David Genadek

Art have you tried a sewmo yet? My Amish crew just got one to replace my Adler that they had because I wanted it back. You can't tell it from the adler and in my mind for a heavy machine it is the best bargain out there. I haven't been around the artisens though but they look kind of like a toy to me. David Genadek

Bruce, Your post is really excellent! I would like to expand on some of your points but don't have time till this weekend. David Genadek

I agree fully with both of you. You have to push me pretty hard to get me to make a tree for a single horse. The fact is there is a limited number of rib cage shapes and most horses will fall into one of them. The biggest reason most people think they need a custom tree is because they have been riding the horse upside down. I have three shapes that will fit most horses. The problem is most tree makers are focusing on gullet width and not bar shape so they don't even offer the bare minnimum. I'm dead against micro fitting but I am for the industry doing the research needed to identify ribcage shapes and then doing the necessary retooling to accomadate them. Mr Nikkel's focus on the hand hole area is a better focus than what everyone else is doing because it allows the tree maker to put enough flair on the bar. We get a lot of horses through here and the majority will use one of two shapes so what you guys are saying about two saddles is very reasonable from what I have seen. Around here we use three regularly and I will need to add a few more that will get used infrequently but we deal with more breeds than most training facilities would. The real question is with modern technology can we improve the shapes? I say yes but at the same time I am fully aware of the constraints that have been on the treemakers and I am all to aware of the complexity of the situation . David Genadek

David, For belt wieght sewing I would go with a Consew 206 RB. They are an absolute work horse and you seldom have trouble with them. You can get in to one for around $900.00. A table a better motor probable around $1500.00. David Genadek

I'm curiouse looking at all the bike seats I notice they are all laced. Is there a reason not to do a welted seam? David Genadek

All my slave labor has gone off to school ....sigh David Genadek

Ashley, I make my own trees. I work with a 3d designer on creating the shapes. Our bar profiles are created by modeling a sampling of backs in the computer. We pull the profiles from real backs and then add the space we need for movement. We cut our parts on a five Axis router. I do not consider myself a horseman but I try to learn what I need to know from the best people I can find. My Anatomy and biomechanics back ground come primarly from Deb Bennett PHDEquinestudies.org My primary influance in regard to rider position has come from Peggy Cummings Peggycummings.com I have been influenced by many horseman Harry Whitney HarryWhitney.com, Mark Rashid MarkRashid.com but my heaviest influence in regard to horseman ship has been my better half Liz Graves LizGraves.com My opinions are hard won and very defendable so I don't mind challanges in he least . David Genadek

I have read through Mr. Nikkel's site and must say it is on of the most eloquent stating of the current paradigm for building trees, I have heard to date. Although he is very much in line with the same backward thinking that the rest of the tree makers are using. His explanation of fitting the horse clearly shows why the industry is in the state it is in. The three main points where he is way off are the twist, rock and orientation. Lets start with twist. Anyone that has looked at a sampling of horses cannot deny that twist is a major factor. The idea that you can have one twist and adjust it through the gullet to fit a range of horses is preposterous. If the range of angle change wither to rib cage were consistent then you could accomplish what he is saying by altering the angles of the arches. Unfortunately both the range and rate of change differ dramatically. I have attached tracing of two backs and super imposed one on top the other to demonstrate this point. So why do the tree makers persist in this absurd notion? Because building and creating the complex shape is no small feat. In order to accommodate different fronts and cantles it is necessary to create common surfaces. These surfaces are important and changing the twist alters them. For the tree industry to acknowledge the reality of twist would mean a mass proliferation of patterns and it would add many layers of complexity to the ordering process and their organizational structure. Point two, is rock, yes rock does change significantly but there is a direct relationship between twist and rock. When this relationship is ignored we start micro fitting and instead of fitting the horse’s actual shape we are then fitting a moment in time and subjecting our work to the influence of the rider, ferrier, dentist, and bit maker. You can only get an accurate assessment of the rock if you consider the how well the horses ring of muscles is being used, you should never fit a tree to a horse who is being ridden upside down meaning the rider is tightening the top line and stretching the underline. When those factors are included you will find there is a limited amount rocks needed. Point three is orientation, which is perhaps the most misunderstood element of tree construction. Mr. Nikkel states that there should be a ½†difference in the spread in the front of the saddle to the rear. The rear being narrower. He does state that this is how he does it. In this statement he is essentially telling you that none of his trees will fit a real horse. Horse’s bodies have a horizontal orientation, unlike us; their spine is horizontal to sea level. Because of this they can be horizontal to differing degrees and it is the job of the tree to be the exact opposite orientation of the horse in order to level the saddle seat. A horse’s orientation can be found by locating the base of the neck and comparing it to the point of hip. The only time you would ever want the spread of the bars to be narrower in the rear would be if you had a horse that was up hill oriented. I personally have never seen a horse with this conformation. Gaited horses have a close to level conformation and most Quarter horses have a down hill conformation. There fore no tree made should have a narrower spread in the rear. I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place. David Genadek

After you do it a few times you will be able to skip that step and just do it in your mind. To beigin with it is a good way to solidify your intent. Note how I divided the the space in thirds to place the octagons and also how the rectangle contains the golden proportions so if you divide the small side by the long side you will get .66 David Genadek

Alex, I used to work for Dyo chemical Co so I was around all the products a lot. I had my best friend who is a chemist go throughthe MSDS with me and the one product that really lit him up was the deglazing fluid. Most of the of the other products the body can process with out to much trouble however prolonged exsposure to any of them is a problem. I say this as one with a rare diesease that prevents my body from processing B12 some think it may be to the prolonged exposure to the dyes and glues. I have always been pretty careful about using gloves and a ventalator and a booth but chemicals are chemicals. Putting it in perspective I use anywhere from 30 to 50 gals of dye a year and about 25 gals a year of contact cement and about 25 gals of the white glue. My exsposure is probable greater than most if your buying 4 oz of stuff at a time your exsposure will be minimal. Deglazing fluid is nasty stuff and I consider a chemical for professional use only. Although when I worked with Shoe refinishers I saw some things that made me wonder why they were not all dropping dead or blowing up. Smoking while they were using deglazing fluid. David Genadek

Ok I did a fast example to demonstrate the point. First we need to discuss intent. This is the first step in designing anything. What is your intent in your design. The only one that can really understand that is the one that did the design. When I first saw Clay's design I saw his intent as in the drawing #1 My suggestions were to try to improve the proportions like in drawing 2. 3 is a rough sketch trying to preserve the original intent . I still contend the original intent was great ! What has happened here is that Clay let others shape his intent instead of building on it from the original. Now it is possible that the original was just a really bad connected stem pattern and he in fact wanted it competely different. However,I find that hard to beleave because the first go had too many great elements for me to think that his intent was other than what was there. Now I would take #3 and refine it further as I have done on the guitar pattern. A is rough B I would take to the leather and do my final refinement with the swival knife. This is not to say that the other designs are bad. They are fine but are they what Clay was seeing in his mind to begin with. David Genadek

Both the above designs are fine but I am deeply troubled by what I have seen happen here. A dogwood has four petals not five. Creation is an individual thing it should not be ruled by the mass hysteria of a mob. In this case we have a disease spreading through the world of leather called Sheridan. If you want Sheridan do Sheridan if you want Dogwood do Dogwood. Learn the rules of design so you create from your own innner depths Don't just follow the blind! David Genadek

I was just looking at a picture he gave me many years ago. He brought his own style in and I'm glad to see it had some influence. David Genadek

For those of you who think I am older than sin because I remembered the articles form the 70's I just want you to know I was a mere infant at the time. David Genadek

Excellent instructions!!!!!!!! Great Job!!!!!!! David Genadek

Johanna, I looked at the photos and a few thoughts came to mind. I saw some photos that reminded me of Darwin Ohlerkings work is he still around? Does Paul Burnett still wiggle when he talks? Just what was Robert Beard holding in the picture? David Genadek

I haven't talked to him in years so I don't really know but he used to make the shoes over there. He is very good on the research.

Bummer!!!!! So you have learned a rule the hard way. The rule is to do all the construction elements that you possible can before you carve. I usually learn them the hard way myself. I can't think of a way to fix it where it is so I might cut off the binding part and stitch a new one on. It would just be a slight design change. David Genadek

Steve, I use to have a guy working from me that was really into living history. I think he still might be at Fort Snelling. His name is Ken Holmstrom and he would probable be able to hook you up with the right people. Give Fort Snelling in St Paul MN a call and see if he is working there. If not him, some one there could probable point you in the right direction. I know he had made some mugs and he is a very good source for hand sewing knowledge. David Genadek

You can make a living if you dig in and get good. By a living I mean you should be able to net between 40 and 50 thousand a year if your good and you price your products right. That isn't a six figure income but it puts you in the same ball park as a school teacher. If you combine your operation with retail you can do much much better. I was just at a horse expo and ran into a few other saddle makers and everyone was whining a bit about the dollars. Right now there is more opportunity in this industry than there ever has been. We have more horses in the US than any time in history. The manufactureing side of things is facing ageing leadership with no trained middle management to take up the slack which means the quaility of the production side of things will be falling off further over the next ten years. Right now there doesn't seem to be enough capacity to meet demand and the guys that are getting the business are haveing trouble finding help so that is really limiting their growth but the demand seems to be strong. As a group we need to charge an appropraite amount for our work now is a really good time to push that limit. David Genadek

Steve, When I was young there seemed to be a lot more information on that topic than what you see today. Of course the renascence festivals were new back then and when you went to them there were all kinds of hand made leather mugs very unlike the crap they sell at them today. I remember articles in the Leather Crafters journal sometime in the 70’s on the subject as I was always intrigued by it myself but I couldn’t tell you which issue. At this point museums might be of more use though. Are there many on the lists that do Renascence festivals? Surely someone knows of someone! David Genadek