David Genadek

"Once upon a time,there was a fisherman who went fishing. As he pulled the fish out of his net he would take the good fish and put them in one barrel and the bad fish into another. We got back to the dock he took the barrel a bad fish and put a sign on it that said five dollars. A man from the fish market walked by and saw the whole barrel of fish for five dollars and thought he could make a killing so he bought the barrel of fish. He brought it back to the market in place to sign on it that said $10. Soon another man from the fish market saw the whole barrel of fish for $10 and quickly scooped it up. He then placed a sign on it that said $20. A few minutes later a restaurant owner came and saw the whole barrel of fish for just $20. How lucky he thought he was so he bought the barrel of fish and brought it back to his restaurant. He made a sign that said fish special and began selling plates of the fish. In no time his irate customerswere demanding their money back. He had to close the restaurant for the day. Furious he went back to the man that he bought the barrel of fish from and demanded a refund. The man looked at him and said look don't yell at me about it I bought them from that guy over there. So the restaurant owner went over to the other man and he said don't yell at me I bought them from the fisherman. So the restaurant owner went up to the fisherman and started giving him a piece of his mind. The fishermen just looked up and smiled and said; Son you didn't feed those fish the people did you? The restaurant owner replied; Well yes, and told him the story of his day. The fisherman looked at him and replied;" Son them were selling fish not eating fish." It is important in the horse world to know the difference between selling fish and eating fish. This whole thread is about selling fish and the people mentioned are about selling fish,this is after all the American way. David Genadek

From the standpoint of having a business and selling a service I can see how you could produce an income stream from any of these systems. The fact is most horse owners do not have a sufficient base of knowledge to properly take care of their horses. As such they are easy marks for the unskilled and untrained equipped with a high tech looking gimmick. Since there is a constant stream of new people entering the market I can see that such an investment could bring a return. What you don't want to do is mistake what you're doing as actually helping people with their issues. First of all none of these systems do anything that your hand cannot do as easily. What they all lack are solutions. If you have what you need to give them solutions you no longer need the gimmick. David Genadek

Here is a good award winning article on the subject: http://equinestudies.org/whos_built_best_2008/whos_built_best_2008_pdf1.pdf Two of the factorsthat have not been mentioned are the difference in the location of the legsocket in the pelvis and the angle in which the legs leaves the pelvis.Although the seat bones are of importance I have found these issues to be ofgreater relevance to the saddle maker and rider. The only time making the waist of the saddlenarrower will have any effect is if the tree is wider than the spread of thehorses ribs which is impossible. Narrowing the waist of the tree will onlyreduce the bearing surface of the bar and create useless dead airspace in thesaddle. David Genadek

Curbstrap, There is no such thing as a Mule saddle , Arabian saddle or gaited horse saddle. There is only the shape of the animal in front of you and a saddle that will match. The notion that we can fit by breed is a marketing tactic not a reality. It is true that a breed can give you a idea of what to expect but the second you make it a law an animal will come along and make a criminal of the idea. As for the saddle I would say: Turn in the opposite direction and run! David Genadek

I find that the reason most people have trouble with a pair shading and beveling is because theyare not clear on the elements of the design. I have found it to be helpful for many if they trace the design and then shade it with a pencil before they take it to the leather. It might take one or it might take 100 but it doesn't make a lot of sense to start cutting into a piece of leather until you understand where you're trying to go with it. The kits that are designed to teach you to carve have the little plastic rub off templates which are nice for production but when you use them you are not going through the process of creation so the movement and the flow of the design is not always apparent. Just tracing the pattern can help but I find people can learn to carve much easier if they actually draw their own design.If you put your focus on what you're trying to create rather than how you're trying to create it you will end up with a much better result and questions about pair shader size will become much less important. When your focus is on doing the shading you will grab any pear shader you can and use the best that you can to create the results you are looking for. David Genadek

Both saddles are of functional design. Everything Bruce said and personally I wouldn't want to sit in either of the seats much but at that price point I doubt you will do much better. David Genadek

Valid concept that is misused as a marketing tactic. David Genadek

Tia, I used to be national sales director for a company called Dyo which had the sole distribution rights for effax product line in the US at the time. Effax is a really excellent product but I think if you read the label you will see that it does contain neatsfoot oil. I was wondering about oils a while back so I contacted the the Tanners Council and the information I got from them was that pure needs foot oil was by far and away the best oil to use on leather the only other oil that was close was a fish oil and that really probably isn't available to the average Joe. So there is nothing wrong or harmful about using neats foot oil. You want to avoid the compounds as many of them have sulfates in them and the sulfates are what cause the problems. I think Kevin is right if you have put the Effax in, then you just need to break it in. You can just take it in your hand and work it and do what we call break the bone. Of course that will naturally happen as you ride. David Genadek

I think the only real concern is the shape. Maybe in a very specific situation strainer versus all leather might have an advantage but in the end what makes a good ground seed is the shape. I have done them both ways and did find that all leather grounds seats allowed me more control over the shape than I had when I used a strainer. However,as I got busier and busier and needed to start hiring help the all leather ground seats became an issue. So now I use strainers but I do my groundwork entirely different than anything I had ever seen or was taught. I modify the strainer plate so that it allows me to create the same shape I would get with a leather ground seat. Now I can grab a guy off the street and by the end of the day have him doing a ground seat that anyone would be happy to ride in and it gets done in about a half hour. Is using a strainer a shortcut ,sure what's wrong with shortcuts? Using a sewing machine is a shortcut. I remember when I was younger Bill Gomer brought a saddle to show and he had stitched it on a machine. Why, I was beside myself that he would have such nerve and I even told him he had sold his soul and if the craft were to exist we must maintain the highest level of excellence in the craft. Bill in his infinite wisdom sat this wet behind the ears kid down and explained the realities of the life I was entering into. Oh I argued all the points but then a few years down the road I was needing some help so Bill came and helped for a few weeks. Well of course he pointed out the number of sewing machines I now had in my shop and we had a good laugh. I will be forever grateful for the kind advice he gave me that day. David Genadek

I use two programs for my out of country communication. The first one is free and that is Skype. Everyone seems to have it and it also allows you to call to land lines but there is a charge for that. My favorite way of communicating is through a program called ReGL which also has the VoIP but allows me to share pictures, drawn things and make notes, view any program on my computer jointly and it allows me to do very high end webinars that can be presented to people that just have dial-up. I do have to pay around $30 a month for the service but it is the most used program on my computer. I use it for taking orders and it makes it as close to having the people right there with me as can be. David Genadek

I have no answers for you, however I do know a group of experts and I will forward the photos onto them and see what I can find out. David Genadek

Sure, This type of saddle has a center configured rigging. So think of your saddle(first picture) as a rocking chair where the floor rocks instead of the chair. What you want is for the center of the rungs to make constant contact with the horses body. This is essentially right under where you are sitting. Therefore, on a center configured rigging the rigging itself needs to be in the center of the saddle. Being a center configured rigging is different than being in the centerfire position although in this case the position is also centerfire. In the second picture you can see the concept of what will happen if the rigging is too far forward as it is in the saddle you posted the link too. now some will present the argument that you will be sitting in the saddle and that will be holding it down which is fine but you are still turning the saddle into a big lever on a loop. You always have to keep in mind that your end goal is to be able to govern the five essentials of riding. Since this situation will cause undue pressure in the front of the saddle it stands a very good chance of tightening the trapezius and the lagissamus dorsi muscle which effectively will lock down the back end prevent the kind of movement you need for quality gaits.This will also affect the proper functioning of the stifle and hocks. The notion of sitting back in the saddle and throwing your legs forward will cause undue pressure on your legs and put you in a very dangerous position while riding. David Genadek

Curbstrap, I don't know anything about that saddle company but looking at the saddle I can tell you this: even if the shape of the saddle is perfect for your horse the positioning of the rigging is such that it will negate the fit 100%. David Genadek

When you place a saddle on the horses back and then sit in it you're going to have pressure.You want to control where the pressure goes and you would prefer that the pressure stays right under where you are sitting as the math of the anatomy doesn't allow for much more than that area to be bearing weight. So: Air or gel move away from pressure, thus becomes impossible for you to put the pressure where you want. I once had one of the gel pad companies call me to try and get me to endorse their product. So I asked the lady a few questions. I said the gel will move away from pressure right. She replied yes. I then I said If I have a saddle that fits and the pressure is right where I want it and I use your pad it will make it not fit right? After several minutes of dead silence she replied yes. The market is full of ridiculous gimmicks look at how many flex treed saddles are being sold today and look at how many flexible panel systems have been sold and the systems are absolutely ridiculous with no chance whatsoever of doing what they claim but yet they can make money off of them and they continue to use the horse owners ignorance against them. David Genadek

Curb scrap, The notion of needing to lean back to get a horse to gate isa common misconception amongst beginning gaited horse riders. There are fiveessentials to riding all horses. 1. Straightness 2. Engagement of the hind quarters 3. Lifting the base of the neck 4. Moving forward using all three of the above, in otherwords the horse knows how to carry weight on its back. 5. Bend in the rib cage. These five essentials are exactly the same across all breeds and disciplines. They are essentially what it means to ride a horse. Since the mother of all gates is the walk then that means all horses are gaited. Anything that would disrupt the walk will interfere with the more complicated gait. So what allows some horses to do more varied footfalls? Well, there many variables however, one ofthe key variables is the placement of the lumbosacral joint. You will find the most gaited breeds that this joint is placed further back which means that the lumbar span on gaited horses proportionately longer. This means the lower back of gaited breeds is more vulnerable to poor riding. It is true that this greater length allows for more varied oscillation of the spine which can then be translated into the legs as different gaits. It also means that the same rules that apply to non-gaited horses are more critical on gaited breeds. Most understand the importance of collection on non gaited breeds but when you start playing with extending the range of footfalls the rider must become even more adept at controlling the muscular tension above and below the spine. One of the mistakes many people make in assessing gait is they look merely at the foot fall sequence. But to truly understand gait you need to look at it as foot fallsequence relative to back dynamics relative to overall conformation. From the standpoint of the seat of the saddle the most critical issue is to get the rider's pelvis level. No rider on any breed can properly govern the five essentials unless they have a level pelvis. To learn more about gaited horses I suggest you go to my better half's website www.lizgraves.com. One of my favorite stories about this topic is about Liz riding saddle seat. Of course saddle seat is a discipline where everything is designed to make you sit improperly. Liz, however, has training that comes from the Spanish riding school and the US cavalry and the thought of riding leaning back and braced was intolerable to her. Because of this she taped foam on her saddle seat saddle so that she could adopt a proper seat. In order to hide the foam she had to make a suit coat with longer tails. Of course in the proper position of having a level pelvis and being more forward on the horse she was able to have a much higher quality gait and is also more capable of sustaining the gait over a longer period of time. So in the end she won the world championship with foam taped to her saddle seat saddle. Unfortunately good horsemanship is invisible until you can see it. So the following year everyone had longer tails on their coats but no one changed their position. So if you want your horse to gait as he is designed to gait find a saddle that has a level place for your pelvis. To do anything but is actually a death sentence for your horse and it also puts you in an incredibly unsafe position. To learn more about that go to www.PeggyCummings.com. David Genadek

I have watched the videos and have had hands on help. This is not as easy as it might seem. Teaching yourself deserves great respect!!!!! David Genadek

I met Darin a few months back at the MN horse expo. I have since done two classes with Pop Wagner who works with Darin. The classes have been a blast. Some of the folks were having trouble getting one of the knots so we did a you tube video showing how it is done. . I have also used Darins tapes to learn to do other styles. They have a lot of detail and are very worth the cost. Anyone interested in learning let me know and I can set up another class with Pop. I am in South eastern MN 20 minutes from the Rochester airport. David Genadek

Denise, As I stated I maybe off on that percentage. However, if you're looking for concrete studies Iwould suggest you contact Deb Bennett at Equine Studies Institute as I am sure she would be more than happy to direct you to all the research that has been done in this area. Dr. Bennett would also be able to trace the influence of the Arabian on the other breeds that you mentioned in the study you cited. Nonetheless, in this discussion there are some good points. The first is that not all Arabians have one less vertebrae. The second point is if it really matters to a saddlemaker? Does having one less vertebrae mean that the back is shorter? Here'swhere comparative anatomy can be used to gain a clearer understanding of the possibilities. I'm going to steal an example that Dr. Bennett uses in her newDVD. Consider the neck of a giraffe compared to that of a human each has seven cervical vertebrae. Let's say the giraffe's neck is 7 feet long and the human's neck is 7 inches long this would then translate into each vertebra being 1 foot long in the giraffe and 1 inch long in the human. If we then pulled one vertebrae out of thegiraffe's neck it would then be 6 feet long and still much longer than the 7inches of the human's neck. From this example we can realize that the number of vertebrae is not the only factor contributing to length, the actual length of each vertebra must also be considered. Because of this , it would be very possible for horse with long vertebrae to be one vertebrae short and still have a longer back than a horse with all their vertebrae. So the practical reality is you have to fit the shape of back that is in front of you. Bondo Bob, Stohlman, has also been a huge inspiration to me. When I first began writing him as a young man my expectation was that I would get a lot of step-by-step instructions back from him like I had seen in his books. Instead my questions were generally answered with more questions. I soon realized that this meant he was considering me a serious student and as such his goal was not to teach me how but rather why. There has been a lot of research done since Stohlman's books were published and I can tell you if he were alive today and had access to this research he would shift his paradigm. It was his influence that inspired me to seek out leading experts outside of saddle making to expand my knowledge. David Genadek

If my memory serves me correct, it is only 30% of the Arabian breed thathas one less vertebrae. It is a lumbar vertebra that is lacking. If as a saddle maker you are using the lumbar span to bear weight you will be causing stifle and hock problems in the horse due to the way the reciprocating system of the hind leg ties into the reciprocating system of the caudal spinal lamb. In short the lumbar span must flex up to allow the stifle to release. Of course it is always ridiculous to say any bar will fit a breed as within Arabians the difference between Polish or Russian bred Arabians and Egyptian bred Arabians is dramatic.To say there is a breed bar would be like Levi's coming out with a pair of jeans claiming they will fit anyone that likes to sing. The anatomical facts and real life measurements dictate that fitting an English saddle is exactly the same as fitting a Western saddle. Although you will see differences in the skirt and in the rigging configuration the reality is the bar portion of a English saddle only averages 1 inch less than that of a Western saddle and you could in fact find some English saddles with a longer bars than that of some Western saddles. David Genadek

For any of you that are interested in learning actual anatomy a few new resources have presented themselves in the marketplace. The first is Horse Confirmation and Biomechanics by Deb Bennett Ph.D. which is available here http://equinestudies...tting_page.html This DVD has 7 1/2 hours of very clear and concise information on how horses are built and work and should be a part of every saddle makers library. The second new resource is If Horses Could Speak by Dr. Gerd Heuschman which can be purchased here http://www.equibooks...heuschmann.html This DVD is Dr. Heuschmans biomechanical answer to the practice of Rollkur. In other words the over tensioning of the nuchal portion of the supraspinous ligament. This practice is very common amongst Western riders also. This DVD is filled with some wonderful 3-D animation. Dr. Heuschmanis also presenting a four-hour lecture throughout the United States. I attended his lecture last weekend in Seattle and found it well worth the time and expense. Lastly here is a link to an interview I did with Rick Lamb on The Horse Show. http://thehorseshow.com/listen.aspx it was the show that aired 8/15 2009 during the interview we discuss the relationship between the lumbar span and the stifle and hock. David Genadek

I have openly and honestly offered my view of the situation. On several occassions pictures have been posted of this only to be met with attacks. I did just put up a link to Harry Whitneys site which has real pictures of real horseman in one of my saddles and clearly shows what I am talking about. This debate has gone on since the beginning of horsemanship. I personally think you guys are some really incredible saddle makers and I have been referring people to Rod for his trees because in my opinion he is the most knowledgeable tree maker out there. However,there is more than one concept of fitting a saddle because there is more than one concept of how to ride a horse. It is unfair for the people that are trying to learn, not to be presented with alternative concepts. There is more than one path. David Genadek

Cool skulls Liz had skull of one of her goats. so she dressed it up a bit and stuck it in her tack room. They are getting big bucks for these in art Galleries. David Genadek

I love the bear part too. If your into B westerns find Sunsets Carsons Six Gun Heroes and the covers were carved by Bob Brown. Sunset was Bobs best friend. I got to spend a day with Sunset listening to stories of the B western days, it is a wonderful memory! David Genadek

We used to write letters to Stohlman with saddle making questions and it would always frustrate me because often his answeres would be vague in fact sometimes his answeres would just be more questions. Now I know he did that to get us to think. I realize now that saddle making is not about how but why. I'm not putting this out there for all you old timers but I do want the new people just getting into this to understand that there is more than one perspective. My perspective of fit is based on anatomy and biomechanics so the best way to understand it is to begin there. Here are some resources that are the basis of my perspective. Principles of Conformation analysis 1,2,3 You can pick these up at almost any tack store. Conquerors which can be had here. Lastly a back issue of Inner Horseman 2002 Theme saddle fit and function which is chocked full of anatomy drawings that pertain to saddle fit such as this: The neat thing about this one is all of it is a direct result of questions I asked about saddle fitting. There are layer by layer drawings of the anatomy as it relates to saddle fit. That along with the others can be found at the above link. David Genadek

Bruce, I have applied the idea to roping saddles working with PRCA ropers. One thing we did do was to design the tree to accomodate a one inch pad. It seemed to work just fine. One thing I think people over look on roping is that the rear of the bar on the side of the pull is also in play. In the end you have roughly 20 inches of body that can take anything so in my mind the focus should be on trying to get the largest amount of area to take the hit. At this time I don't do a lot team roping saddles mostly ranch saddles and of course that is a different style of roping and I have had no complaints there either. But I will say that this is dependent on the skill of the horseman. One of the people I relie on for feed back is Harry Whitney you can see where he sits on his site. In the end we as saddle makers need to understand the different schools of horsemanship and understand thier needs. From that point you can specifically target your market. For instance the market I currently target are people seeking the higher levels of horesmanship. My crew builds a mass customized production saddle that is priced between a traditional factory saddle and the custom maker. No matter what market I am in that is the segment I target with what I am doing now. So for me what I want to know is if a rider understands straightness, engagement of the hind quarters and the lifting of the base of the neck then they are a potential client. If they understand these things then how I do things will work for them if not I will seem like a kook. David Genadek