Strong Belt Loop Attachment?

[Spyros]

Maybe make a 2mm hole at the start and end of those slits, takes 5 seconds and makes them a lot harder to tear. 

[Handstitched]

  On 5/27/2022 at 12:33 PM, MtlBiker said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean.  And when you wear the pouch, the belt loop doesn't even show. 

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When I cut my belt loops,  ( quite often belt off-cuts or scraps)  I cut them using an ' English point strap end cutter' on both ends, instead of cut straight. The loop is attached  the same as what you have done  in the pic, but stitched  in the ' V' , and then stitched  across, the same as what @tsunkasapa  has done on his loop. And, depending on the item,  a sheath for example , the loop is a one piece . 

Also, for pouches such as leatherman type cases etc. I try not to attach the loop too low , otherwise the top of the  case will sit too high for the customer*. Hope that made sense ?   

(*Some customers, and  stockmen,  like the loop length ways, horizontal  )

 

HS

Edited May 28, 2022 by Handstitched

[Spyros]

  On 5/27/2022 at 4:07 PM, battlemunky said:

I saw a video on YT a few years ago that showed pull tests between double capped /ez rivets, bit/burr rivets, and stitching. Done correctly, bit/burr is super strong, stitching is too, and I only use double cap and/or ez rivets for decoration because they can pull apart surprisingly easy. I'll try to find the video and post it if I do.

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Both thread and metal are stronger than the leather, and both need to be installed properly.  A double cap rivet is easy to get it wrong, or get the wrong size.  If you get it right you can put the leather on a vice and pull it with pliers, the rivet is not coming off, and if you keep trying the leather will tear.  As anyone who's ever tried to remove a rivet knows, it can only be removed with a drill.

[Bert03241]

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:50 AM, Brokenolmarine said:

I have box stitched all mine, but Glue them first with Contact Cement.  None have given up the ghost yet.  Not that I have made that many.  However, my daughter has worn one knife sheath for nearly three years, still going strong.

I also took a tip from a British leather worker whose holster and sheath videos I watched a lot of... after stitching the loop, I turn the leather over and put a thin layer of cement over the stitches inside the holster or sheath.  Won't be seen ever again, but protects the stitches from whatever slides over them, and protects what is sliding over them.

 

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I always glue first, Great tip on glue over stitches , Thanks for that one. Semper Fi Brother

[Bert03241]

  On 5/28/2022 at 3:25 AM, RockyAussie said:

The top and bottom have to be open if the wearer prefers to wear it in line with the belt horizontally. They have to be open just enough for a belt to be pushed through. If worn vertically in the direction you have your strap attached then the 2 slits allow you to feed the belt through that way. In wear this method will not hang out as much as the folded over strap does at the top as in how you have yours at present. Yes it means 3 layers to be stitched and I would have thought that would not be a problem with your machine but as you say maybe you should just give it a go. Another view in case it helps - Ignore the crappy stitching, one of my staff asked me to make it up 1/2hour before his finish time and I did not even have a mould to start with.

 

 

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Thats crazy , a lot of extra work, just cut the slots in the back of the sheath. Been doing it this way for years never had a complaint.

  On 5/28/2022 at 5:37 AM, Spyros said:

Maybe make a 2mm hole at the start and end of those slits, takes 5 seconds and makes them a lot harder to tear. 

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[RockyAussie]

  On 5/28/2022 at 5:37 AM, Spyros said:

Maybe make a 2mm hole at the start and end of those slits, takes 5 seconds and makes them a lot harder to tear. 

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Yeah I shoulda done it but that knife/die was made ages ago and I have not had any negative feedback on it before now. Sometimes I just don't like the look of slots with holes at the ends. Rather than use a crew punch often I will hunt up a bit of box tube and make a punch that cuts a U shape instead. That has the advantage of keeping whatever strap that goes in tight and neat looking when finished. In the right side back of this picture you can see one of these punches I made to use in the tote bag I was making.

[Klara]

  On 5/27/2022 at 3:34 PM, MtlBiker said:

Oh no!  MORE stuff to buy!  (Slot punches.)

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Not necessarily. You can also punch two holes the strap width apart and cut the straight lines with a knife. More work and doesn't look so good (at first, or ever) but cheaper and, most important, you can start immediately without waiting for delivery of your slot punch.

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Klara said:

Not necessarily. You can also punch two holes the strap width apart and cut the straight lines with a knife. More work and doesn't look so good (at first, or ever) but cheaper and, most important, you can start immediately without waiting for delivery of your slot punch.

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Thank you Klara.  I've actually been doing that where I need to attach a zipper to my leather.  I'm getting better at it, but you're right, it probably doesn't look as good as if the slot was cut with a proper punch.  At least with the zipper slot, it's easier (I think) because the whole slot is longer and wider.  But since this slot doesn't get hidden, it's really got to look good.

BTW, I did get that stitching "clamp" from DecoCuir we were talking about a couple of months back.  It's quite well made and I'm getting the hang of using it and I like it much more than a stitching pony that clamps to a table.  With this I can relax on my couch in front of the tv and use it much more easily than one that clamps to a table.  I don't have a real "shop" for everything but use a guest room and part of the living room for my sewing "hobby".

Best regards!

 

[fredk]

One wee thing I used to do; I cut a slot template in thickish card board. I got the slot looking good on that first, then I used a pen to trace the slot on the leather and followed the outside of the pen line as I cut the leather. I only did this when I had at least 4 slots to cut.

[dikman]

Seems to me that in this particular case the best way would be that used on some (usually cheaper) knife pouches - cut two vertical slots in the back and feed the belt through. Not as pretty or elegant as attaching an actual loop, but simple, strong and will keep the pouch closer to the body, helping to reduce snagging.

[MtlBiker]

  On 5/29/2022 at 10:52 PM, dikman said:

Seems to me that in this particular case the best way would be that used on some (usually cheaper) knife pouches - cut two vertical slots in the back and feed the belt through. Not as pretty or elegant as attaching an actual loop, but simple, strong and will keep the pouch closer to the body, helping to reduce snagging.

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I think if I did that there would be the chance that when I try to insert the SECRID card holder into the pouch it would snag on the belt.  You saw the photo of the SECRID?  It's got pretty sharp edges and the inside of a pouch needs to be smooth and without anything it could catch on.  Nah, I'm going to stick to hand stitching the belt loop (no rivets) on the outside of the pouch back.  At least on the next one I'm trying to make.  I guess I'd call it a work/design in progress.  Also it's a chance for me to practice my stitching.

Cheers!
 

[battlemunky]

  On 5/28/2022 at 7:58 AM, Spyros said:

Both thread and metal are stronger than the leather, and both need to be installed properly.  A double cap rivet is easy to get it wrong, or get the wrong size.  If you get it right you can put the leather on a vice and pull it with pliers, the rivet is not coming off, and if you keep trying the leather will tear.  As anyone who's ever tried to remove a rivet knows, it can only be removed with a drill.

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I dunno man, I remove those ez rivets with a pair of needle nosed pliers more often than not. Prying/bending the cap off and then smooshing/bending the tube so it'll fit through the hole. It's quite easy that way. I agree with you on bit/burr, 100% has to be drilled out.

[Doc Reaper]

  On 5/26/2022 at 11:14 PM, Bert03241 said:

I stitch all my belt loops and double stitch the stress points

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Agreed, the rivets you speak of are use for aesthetics not real Holden strength 

[Spyros]

Disagree, I never stitch loops or handles, just double cap rivets and nothing's ever failed (except for my attention to detail sometimes, in which case I've had to remove a couple, and they don't come off no-matter-what).

I'm guessing the people who say double cap rivets don't hold must have the wrong size stem, probably too short.

[Spyros]

  On 6/2/2022 at 1:44 PM, battlemunky said:

I dunno man, I remove those ez rivets with a pair of needle nosed pliers more often than not. Prying/bending the cap off and then smooshing/bending the tube so it'll fit through the hole. It's quite easy that way. 

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No way.  You made me go to the shed on a Friday night LOL

Here's some leather. 

Top side is Sedwick English bridle, bottom side is full grain veg tan, glued and stitched together.  As a combination it's tough as they come, the kind of thing you can easily hang your body weight from:

And this is one double cap rivet.

And this is how the rivet is supposed to fit: it must stick out a couple of mm, and there needs to be a tiny bit of room in hole around it for the rivet cap to go inside the leather when installed.  This is important.

and this is how to install them.  The metal base with the blue collar is from a hand press, I've drilled a hole on the block of wood to hold it.  Both the base and the concave setter are exactly the correct size for that rivet, this is also important.

A couple of hard hits with a heavy maul.  By hard I mean HARD, no BS. 

Obviously I was holding the setter when hitting, but I was holding the phone this time to take the photo.

And this is what it looks like installed, the top of the stem has completely mushroomed inside the rivet and it has been reduced to between 2/3 to 1/2 of its original length.  This is the most important thing, I see some people on videos giving their rivets a couple of light taps on the table and calling it "ok done".  Well good luck with that.  The rivet needs to be hit hard enough to be a little bit embedded in the leather.

Here I am putting the strap in the vice.

And then I pulled with everything I got.  No photos of that because I was pulling with both hands, plus one foot on the vice.

After a lot of pulling, eventually this is what happened:

The rivet stayed in its place and it tore right through the leather.

The head of the rivet itself deformed as you'd expect, because I was pulling it sideways, but the stem is firmly planted in the cap and still holds just fine.

Ok? That is a properly installed double cap rivet.

I have no idea what you guys are doing that causes your rivets to fail. 

Mine don't.

[chuck123wapati]

  On 6/3/2022 at 10:28 AM, Spyros said:

No way.  You made me go to the shed on a Friday night LOL

Here's some leather. 

Top side is Sedwick English bridle, bottom side is full grain veg tan, glued and stitched together.  As a combination it's tough as they come, the kind of thing you can easily hang your body weight from:

And this is one double cap rivet.

And this is how the rivet is supposed to fit: it must stick out a couple of mm, and there needs to be a tiny bit of room in hole around it for the rivet cap to go inside the leather when installed.  This is important.

and this is how to install them.  The metal base with the blue collar is from a hand press, I've drilled a hole on the block of wood to hold it.  Both the base and the concave setter are exactly the correct size for that rivet, this is also important.

A couple of hard hits with a heavy maul.  By hard I mean HARD, no BS. 

Obviously I was holding the setter when hitting, but I was holding the phone this time to take the photo.

And this is what it looks like installed, the top of the stem has completely mushroomed inside the rivet and it has been reduced to between 2/3 to 1/2 of its original length.  This is the most important thing, I see some people on videos giving their rivets a couple of light taps on the table and calling it "ok done".  Well good luck with that.  The rivet needs to be hit hard enough to be a little bit embedded in the leather.

Here I am putting the strap in the vice.

And then I pulled with everything I got.  No photos of that because I was pulling with both hands, plus one foot on the vice.

After a lot of pulling, eventually this is what happened:

The rivet stayed in its place and it tore right through the leather.

The head of the rivet itself deformed as you'd expect, because I was pulling it sideways, but the stem is firmly planted in the cap and still holds just fine.

Ok? That is a properly installed double cap rivet.

I have no idea what you guys are doing that causes your rivets to fail. 

Mine don't.

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simple answer = often they don't use them in places where rivets should be used. the strength and your perfect example shows this, rivets are best used for shear loads, loads perpendicular to the axis of the shaft, like you showed pulling on the shaft of the rivet. when folks use them in an area where the pressure of the load is on the head then the head pulls off  or the leather stretches around the head and  gives way. To me most folks are just ignorant about the technical aspect of fastening systems and don't realize they play out even in the smallest places like the leather world

[MtlBiker]

  On 6/3/2022 at 1:05 PM, chuck123wapati said:

simple answer = often they don't use them in places where rivets should be used. the strength and your perfect example shows this, rivets are best used for shear loads, loads perpendicular to the axis of the shaft, like you showed pulling on the shaft of the rivet. when folks use them in an area where the pressure of the load is on the head then the head pulls off  or the leather stretches around the head and  gives way. To me most folks are just ignorant about the technical aspect of fastening systems and don't realize they play out even in the smallest places like the leather world

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That's exactly why the rivets failed on my little belt pouch loop.  Getting in and out of the car, and sometimes in my shop, I'd snag the pouch on something so the rivet was being pulled in a way that put the load on the head.  I'll be stitching those belt loops from now on.

 

[Spyros]

And I'll keep riveting them LOL

All happy :D

[chuck123wapati]

  On 6/3/2022 at 1:09 PM, MtlBiker said:

That's exactly why the rivets failed on my little belt pouch loop.  Getting in and out of the car, and sometimes in my shop, I'd snag the pouch on something so the rivet was being pulled in a way that put the load on the head.  I'll be stitching those belt loops from now on.

 

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Exactly why they failed!!!! yup or use the slot method that Fred suggested, it works because it shifts the load on the rivets to the stem.

[battlemunky]

  On 6/3/2022 at 10:28 AM, Spyros said:

No way.  You made me go to the shed on a Friday night LOL

Xsnipped out the pics to keep the thread as concise as possibleX

Mine don't.

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Man, thanks for the activity. I never doubted what you were saying and by no means was I calling you out or anything so I hope that wasn't what spurred you to action my friend! I'm still maintaining, though, that sewing is stronger than the double capped rivets and that removing them is pretty easy using needle nosed pliers.

I've used the double capped rivets to affix straps to totes which is exactly the scenario you tested. They haven't failed (to my knowledge) but ever since I saw the video testing the ez rivets, bit/burr, and sewing, I've only used the double caps for aesthetics and have always used stitching as the main means to join the pieces. I did use them early on on the corners of the opening of a sheath for a Leatherman and they pulled away because that was the wrong use. But yeah, ever since, I have relied on stitching or bit/burr rivets. Also, I do use the correct length shaft but not always the setter and anvil, so that is a huge difference that I'm sure matters. I do whack em pretty good unlike a lot of the videos you see out there...I don't know how a lot of folks get away with some stuff. I love Corter's videos but seeing some of his double capped rivet work in them makes me wonder if he lets that stuff leave his shop.

[Spyros]

  On 6/3/2022 at 3:57 PM, battlemunky said:

Man, thanks for the activity. I never doubted what you were saying and by no means was I calling you out or anything so I hope that wasn't what spurred you to action my friend! I'm still maintaining, though, that sewing is stronger than the double capped rivets and that removing them is pretty easy using needle nosed pliers.

I've used the double capped rivets to affix straps to totes which is exactly the scenario you tested. They haven't failed (to my knowledge) but ever since I saw the video testing the ez rivets, bit/burr, and sewing, I've only used the double caps for aesthetics and have always used stitching as the main means to join the pieces. I did use them early on on the corners of the opening of a sheath for a Leatherman and they pulled away because that was the wrong use. But yeah, ever since, I have relied on stitching or bit/burr rivets. Also, I do use the correct length shaft but not always the setter and anvil, so that is a huge difference that I'm sure matters. I do whack em pretty good unlike a lot of the videos you see out there...I don't know how a lot of folks get away with some stuff. I love Corter's videos but seeing some of his double capped rivet work in them makes me wonder if he lets that stuff leave his shop.

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Don't worry about it, I got passionate about rivets and it lasted about 3 seconds LOL

Here's the thing... if I have proven that the rivet is stronger than my leather, then what does it matter if the thread is even stronger?  Mind you I'm 6'5/290, that was an *extreme* force applied to get that leather to rip, totally unrealistic.  Maybe relevant to saddles? Parachutes? I don't know, I don't make those things.   

I'm very sceptical about youtube videos in general, in my experience more than half of them are just flat out wrong.  Good people, good intentions, but wrong regardless.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Spyros

[battlemunky]

  On 6/4/2022 at 12:04 AM, Spyros said:

Don't worry about it, I got passionate about rivets and it lasted about 3 seconds LOL

Here's the thing... if I have proven that the rivet is stronger than my leather, then what does it matter if the thread is even stronger?  Mind you I'm 6'5/290, that was an *extreme* force applied to get that leather to rip, totally unrealistic.  Maybe relevant to saddles? Parachutes? I don't know, I don't make those things.   

I'm very sceptical about youtube videos in general, in my experience more than half of them are just flat out wrong.  Good people, good intentions, but wrong regardless.

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But it was on the internet...

:D 

[Bert03241]

  On 6/4/2022 at 1:46 AM, battlemunky said:

But it was on the internet...

:D 

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so it had to be true

[chuck123wapati]

  On 6/4/2022 at 12:04 AM, Spyros said:

Don't worry about it, I got passionate about rivets and it lasted about 3 seconds LOL

Here's the thing... if I have proven that the rivet is stronger than my leather, then what does it matter if the thread is even stronger?  Mind you I'm 6'5/290, that was an *extreme* force applied to get that leather to rip, totally unrealistic.  Maybe relevant to saddles? Parachutes? I don't know, I don't make those things.   

I'm very sceptical about youtube videos in general, in my experience more than half of them are just flat out wrong.  Good people, good intentions, but wrong regardless.

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so now would you finish your demonstration and sew the two straps together and see how easy it is to tear them out. i think most all of us would love to know.

[MtlBiker]

  On 6/4/2022 at 1:49 PM, chuck123wapati said:

so now would you finish your demonstration and sew the two straps together and see how easy it is to tear them out. i think most all of us would love to know.

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Yeah, but the test (for stitching and for the rivet) really should be putting the stress on the attachment the same way that it was on my belt pouch, when catching the pouch against something while wearing it.  Just hanging off the belt puts very little stress on the loop attachment.

Any suggestion on what kind of stitching should be done on the belt loop?  A box-x stitch?  Just plain box?  I don't think that a couple of lines of stitching perpendicular to the long side of the loop would be sufficient.  I'm thinking just a box would be good.