Dipping my toe into sewing; Advice requested

[Tequila]

5 hours ago, Sam83 said:

 

As for the cylinder arm option, I'm putting that on hold. I don't think I'm at the skill level where I can use one correctly, nor do I think it's even necessary at this early stage of my learning. As many of you have mentioned, it is inevitable that I'll end up with additional machines for different purposes, so I can always add this later if I require it. 

Thank you all so very much for sharing your experiences and advice! It's just wonderful how everyone's ready to jump in and help out. It's more than I expected, especially as I'm so new to this all and I need more advice than your typical poster. Wishing you all a great weekend and thanks again!

Remember you can always turn a cylinder arm to a flatbed, most have a flatbed add on.  Here’s a place in England that sells Typical Machines and exports them JB Sewing  Looking at what they offer I’d be looking at either the TW3-P335 or if you can afford it the TW3-441 which looks to be a Juki 441 knock-off, and here’s one on Alibaba:  441

[dikman]

I might as well chime in. The "famous" Chinese shoe patcher is often known as a tinker's delight! They can be a useful machine but will likely require a bit of work to make it run smoothly. My suggestion, in your situation, is no.

Importing from China, naturally I have no idea about the ease/difficulty in importing large items where you are but I considered importing a 441 clone head into Australia. While there are any number of dealers on Ali-express/Ali-baba who were happy to sell me a unit (at some good prices) it was a nightmare trying to work out how to do it, at every turn there were additional costs required here (shipping, port forwarding, brokers fees, import taxes plus some I've forgotten). The cost worked out the same as buying locally, which I did.  Hopefully it won't be as bad for you (here we have taxes on taxes!!) but be thorough in your research. As for the Typical brand I came across it during my searching and it appeared to be a good brand.

Good luck, and I hope it works out for you.

[Sam83]

 

@MtlBiker Thank you for your thoughts on the Janome. I totally agree that a computerized sewing machine and a plastic body are not the way for me. I want a simple, solid machine that can do straight stitches; certainly not looking for anything overly complicated with unnecessary bells and whistles.The Janome HD3000 may well go on sale for Prime day (which happens next week in this part of the world). I'll keep my eyes on it. The metal frame is a definite requirement. 

@Tequila Thank you for those helpful links! In my initial posts, I had intended to go for a cylinder arm with a flat bed attachment as you suggested, then somewhere along the way I got lost down the rabbit hole of machine options and forgot that was my original plan, lol! Even if it's a bit fussy, I don't mind that at this early stage of my learning process. 
Now that I know that I'm limited to clones, the next step is to identify if it'll be a 1541S or 441 clone, and make sure I get a supplier who can provide the table, servo and get through customs here, all within my limited budget. I'm knee-deep in tabs, comparing various machines and will take my time before ordering to make sure I don't make any big mistakes.

Edit: Looking at the JB sewing site now, and I so wish they could ship internationally! The machine specs are listed more clearly here and with your direct link to the Alibaba alternative, you've cleared a lot of confusion for me. Can't thank you enough!

@dikman I appreciate the heads up on customs duties and taxes. It is one of my biggest concerns with importing (and it is the reason I'm going for China over India, since I was told charges for importing from India would be much higher). Since the pandemic has totally messed with my income and I'm doing only short contract work at the minute, I don't have room to cover any unexpected charges. I'll be careful and communicate with potential suppliers as well as the customs office here before actually buying anything to make sure my bases are covered. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Sam83

[dikman]

Sam, you mentioned possibly a 441 clone, these are heavy duty machines and likely to be too much for what you intend sewing. With RockyAussies modified needle plate and feed dog they will go down to #138 thread but anything lighter than that could be problematic (one of the issues will be finding small enough needles for lighter thread). Something with 1/2" max. under the feet might be a better fit?

[Sam83]

3 hours ago, dikman said:

Sam, you mentioned possibly a 441 clone, these are heavy duty machines and likely to be too much for what you intend sewing. With RockyAussies modified needle plate and feed dog they will go down to #138 thread but anything lighter than that could be problematic (one of the issues will be finding small enough needles for lighter thread). Something with 1/2" max. under the feet might be a better fit?

Oh, yes! Thank you so much. I'd read that before- either it was either mentioned earlier in the thread (which I'm going to have to go over again because I've got all the advice jumbled) or it was in the stickied thread about various leather sewing machines!

Apologies for being such a muppet and confusing all the details. Between local dealers not telling me straight up that they didn't have these machines then trying to sell me alternatives that are not for leather in the first place, and the added hassle of trying to figure out what and where to import from, I have completely lost the plot! 

I'll take a few days to clear my head and read all the threads and notes I've taken down again before deciding on the best model. Then I'll tackle issue of customs/importing. I also want to make sure I can get things like an edge guide and speed reducer on the machine I order, and since those seem to be sold separately, I want to make sure I get parts that I can assemble myself and that work with whatever machine I buy in the end.

None of this is all that complicated, I'm aware, but because I've never even seen one of these machines, let alone assembled one, it all feels much more messy than it is.

Anyway, I'm so thankful for the advice I'm receiving. I'll be sure to post an update once I have settled on my choice. Hopefully I'll be posting some of my creations not long after that.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Sam83

[kgg]

23 minutes ago, Sam83 said:

None of this is all that complicated, I'm aware, but because I've never even seen one of these machines, let alone assembled one, it all feels much more messy than it is.

A couple of quick notes for when you decide to order and the your machine arrives.

1. Have a second person to help you pickup, unpack, move, lift and place the machine.

2. Industrial sewing machines are heavy and clumsy to handle by oneself whether they are brand name or clone.

Example:

i)   Juki DU-1181N head alone weights in at ------- 31   kg  (~68.3 lbs  )
ii)  Juki DNU-1541 S head alone weights in at ---- 36.5 kg (~80.5 lbs  )
iii) Juki LS-1341 head alone weights in at ---------- 37.5 kg  (~82.7 lbs  )
iv) Juki TSC-441 head alone weights in at ---------  56   kg  (~114.6 lbs )

3. They probably are going to have packing oil over their surfaces so they are also going to be slippery also. Clean all oil off before trying to move or lift them once they are out of the shipping box.

4. Cylinder bed machine and patchers are nose heavy and always wants to tip over until you get a couple of mounting bolts into the rear of the base and table.

5. Since shipping to your location is so outrageous I would suggest either building a table or getting a used industrial table locally. A industrial sewing table is going to be 1.2 m L x 0.5 m W (48"L x 20"W ) and with the weight of a motor weight in probably around the 35 kg mark.

kgg

[Sam83]

@kgg You're just a treasure trove of information! Thank you for the heads up. It's funny seeing the weights listed out. I only weigh 48kgs myself, being a rather petite woman, so this could make for some delightful physical comedy!

I moved here literally just before the first lockdown, and then I lost my job and am on contract work atm, so I don't know many people who could help me out. However, that may not be necessary at all because ~drum roll~  I've found a Typical machine supplier in the city! I knew there had to be some dealership that supplied local businesses, and it turns out that by focusing on clone machines, I have found my way around these obstacles.

I gave the suppliers a call this morning and the person I spoke to said that the sales rep who can help me out is on holiday atm. He will be back in a month's time and I can call back to arrange an appointment with him. So, I've finally made some progress. Hopefully this means I can actually get the machine locally and even test it out in person before committing to the purchase.

Thank you all again for all the wonderful tips. No doubt they'll help other newbs as much as they did me. 

[dikman]

That's great news, Sam. It's much better being able to see and, if possible use, a machine before buying it. Hopefully through this forum you'll have a pretty good idea of questions to ask when you eventually visit the place.

[chrisash]

This is a good post on helping you chose the type of machine

 

[Sam83]

@dikman Thank you! I feel much better about being able to see and handle them before buying.

@chrisash Agree, that is a wonderful thread and it was where I started on my journey. Lots of valuable info in there and I'm grateful to Wiz for the time and effort he put into collating it all.

[Sam83]

Hi all, time for an update!

I finally got an appointment with the Typical machine rep, who then proceeded to give me the runaround and push domestic sewing machines on me. I've wasted so much time and effort trying to get local dealers to just be upfront about the fact that they don't supply leather sewing machines, it's incredibly frustrating!

After giving up on getting Juki, Consew, and Typical machines, I stumbled upon a supplier who could import a Gypsy leather sewing machine (unfamiliar brand but, on paper, no different than other clones). Unfortunately, the price was close to USD 5,000! No way!

Now I only have one option left: Sailrite. Which, I know is often considered the wrong type of machine for leatherwork work, but it's the only remaining option within my budget of 2k, that ships directly from them to Dubai. Given that I'm working on thin leathers and only making bags, it seems a suitable option.
I was torn between the LSZ-1 (because I think the zig zag stitch option would be useful) and the Leatherwork. I think I'll opt for the latter because of the smooth presser feet, speed reducer and greater power ( 3/4th hp, 4.5 amps vs 1/4th hp, 3 amps in the LSZ).

Thank you all for your input and advice as I navigated the world of machines! I really hadn't expected it to be quite so complicated to get what I need locally. If anyone has any input on the Leatherwork machines, I'm all ears! I'm planning to make the purchase in the next few weeks if nobody warns me against it, lol. 

Thanks again!

Edited August 16, 2022 by Sam83

[kgg]

4 hours ago, Sam83 said:

If anyone has any input on the Leatherwork machines, I'm all ears! I'm planning to make the purchase in the next few weeks if nobody warns me against it, lol. 

The portable walking foot machines were designed for sewing canvas while at sea. That said the Sailrite machines seem to be better made with good customer service and video's then a lot of the other similar portable walking foot machines. The LSZ-1 with the zig zag is a nice option to have while the Leatherworker is a LS-1 (painted green) straight stitch machine and mounted into a short table with a good industrial servo motor driving it.

If I were importing one I would go with the LSZ-1 with a hard metal case for safe storage and their Worker B motor if it could be used on the electrical system of your country. Otherwise I would get a LSZ-1, mount it in a table and strap an industrial servo motor to it that would work on your electrical system. The short tables like that of the Leatherworker are I think to short and you would windup putting a table extension leaf on it. 

The attached photo is of a table I constructed for a LSZ-1clone mounted in a table with an extension leaf. This little machine has one job, edge binding. It has been modified to do this as efficiently as possible in the less amount of space with the necessary attachments.

[Sam83]

@kgg Thanks so much for the quick response, kgg! I'm so grateful for the assistance. 

I love the look of your LSZ-1 clone. Great colour! 

1 hour ago, kgg said:

If I were importing one I would go with the LSZ-1 with a hard metal case for safe storage and their Worker B motor if it could be used on the electrical system of your country.

Great to know, thank you! Yes I checked and their European version (with the Worker B motor) will work here on our 230V power supply voltage.

May I ask a question? Aside from the table that would require an extension, wouldn't the Leatherwork be a better option because it has more horse power?

LSZ-1:

Power:220-240V A.C., 1/10th hp, 0.7 amps

* just noticed I posted 3 amps in the last post, which is incorrect.

Leatherwork: 

Power:220-240V A.C., 3/4th hp, 4.5 amps

Also, the leatherwork has a speed reducer which the LSZ-1 doesn't and I had understood that this was important for being able to control stitches around corner and such.

Please know that I'm not trying to push back against your recommendation. I just want to learn and better understand how important things like the horsepower are. Thank you! 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Sam83

[Tequila]

@Sam83 IMHO it’s not the HP but the application of the HP.  Reducing pulley will increase the torque and reduce the speed.  Again, IMHO I would choose the Leatherwork, why you ask?  Easy, first for almost all leatherwork a good straight stitch is all you need.  Second, more HP is always a good thing.  Third after looking at the machine specs the LSZ-1 MAY require you to change the presser feet and feed dog since it’s designed to be used for sewing canvas, etc and might mar leather.  A good leather machine can go slow and still have the punching power to push the needle through the leather. As for going around corners well slow is you friend, usually it’s one stitch at a time and controlling where the leather is to where the needle is is crucial, remember leather is unforgiving one extra hole can ruin the product. 

[Wizcrafts]

The Sailrite portables line are dual feed walking foot machines, where the feed dog and outside foot move the work, while the needle and inside foot just move up and down. In order to get a good grip the feeder and foot have teeth. In the case of the Leatherwork version, the feet and feeder are knurled instead of having sharp angled teeth. If one is sewing chrome tan leather this is no problem. In fact, their regular sharp teeth probably won't mark up chrome tanned leather. However, when sewing veg-tan leather any tooth pattern or tooth marks will remain visible unless you rub them out.

All of the Sailrite portables are factory limited to a maximum thread size of T90; top and bottom. Despite this, some people on this forum have pushed their machines beyond that limit to sew 1/4 inch of leather with T135 bonded thread, top and bottom. This required moving the hook slightly farther away from the needle and using a #23 needle. This combination greatly increases the power needed to penetrate leather, especially veg-tan leather. So, these guys made speed reducers that multiplied the torque. Sewing veg-tan leather calls for adding the Monster II balance wheel to the machine. I believe they also had to find stronger presser foot springs to keep the leather from lifting with the threaded needle. The size of the lockstitch knots in size T135 (v138) thread are more than double that of T90. The top tension spring may also need to be replaced with a heavier spring to pull the knots up.

With or without these modifications, the Sailrite portables are limited to sewing 1/4 inch, or ~6.25mm under the feet. Sewing anything thicker requires further modifications.

[Sam83]

42 minutes ago, Tequila said:

Again, IMHO I would choose the Leatherwork, why you ask?

You confirmed a lot of what I was thinking (and had learned from the sewing machine thread). Thank you very much! 

51 minutes ago, Tequila said:

Third after looking at the machine specs the LSZ-1 MAY require you to change the presser feet and feed dog since it’s designed to be used for sewing canvas, etc and might mar leather.

21 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

In order to get a good grip the feeder and foot have teeth. In the case of the Leatherwork version, the feet and feeder are knurled instead of having sharp angled teeth.

You both mentioned the grip/feet, so I'll explain that if opting for the LSZ-1, I would add on the knurled feet to my order and use those instead of the toothed feet that come as standard. I'd rather pay a little more than risk marking up the leather.

I'm still leaning towards the Leatherwork, particularly because of the lower speed. I'm new to learning all this so I feel like that speed control is going to be really helpful.  

24 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

With or without these modifications, the Sailrite portables are limited to sewing 1/4 inch, or ~6.25mm under the feet. Sewing anything thicker requires further modifications.

Oh, I'm not going above 4-5mm thickness in my projects. The leather I'm using ranges from 0.6 to 1.2mm (and V-92 thread), so doubled or tripled, it's still not pushing anything near the limit of the machine. I appreciate the explanation on modifications, though, as it's great to learn. 

Also, Wiz, thank you for pointing out earlier on that the local power outlets and voltage needed to be considered when selecting a machine. I hadn't even thought of it until you said it, so you probably stopped me from making a huge mistake there! 

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Sam83 said:

Also, the leatherwork has a speed reducer which the LSZ-1 doesn't and I had understood that this was important for being able to control stitches around corner and such.

Please know that I'm not trying to push back against your recommendation. I just want to learn and better understand how important things like the horsepower are.

Depending on how thick / type of leather you are planning on using and if the portable walking foot will work I would still first choose the the Worker B motor. If you find the speed control isn't where you need / want it then you could add a speed reducer and a servo motor at a later date. The LSZ-1 clone I showed is consistently run at max thickness or just above using the tiny 90 watt standard domestic motor.

The advantage of having the zig zag besides the zig zag is you can sew closer or farther from the normal center needle position simply by setting the needle to either the left or right and selecting zero on the zig zag setting. That way it works as a straight stitch machine just with the needle left or right of the normal center position. As a note all the feet / feed dogs available for the LS-1 Leatherworker are readily available for the LSZ-1 from either Sailrite or Chinese suppliers.

Before investing in a portable walking foot Sailrite have you tried to get a more capable industrial flatbed or cylinder bed machine shipped directly from China or Taiwan?

kgg

[Sam83]

38 minutes ago, kgg said:

I would still first choose the the Worker B motor.

 

38 minutes ago, kgg said:

The advantage of having the zig zag besides the zig zag is you can sew closer or farther from the normal center needle position simply by setting the needle to either the left or right and selecting zero on the zig zag setting. That way it works as a straight stitch machine just with the needle left or right of the normal center position.

On the 2 points quoted: Thank you for explaining. I am unsure how the Worker B motor is preferable over their Workhorse motor, so I'll head over to their site and try to figure that out. From the specs, it looks like the Workhorse is a stronger option, so I had better read the specs more carefully and see what each one offers in more depth.

The option to set the needle off centre would be incredibly helpful as it would allow me to stitch closer to the edge of a piece. Thank you for explaining! It would certainly be a very handy trick. 

38 minutes ago, kgg said:

Before investing in a portable walking foot Sailrite have you tried to get a more capable industrial flatbed or cylinder bed machine shipped directly from China or Taiwan?

I had looked into that around a month ago, but since I am alone here and have no mechanical knowledge (and you pointed out to me earlier that those machines weigh double what I do ), I don't think I would be able to assemble them and get them in working order. I've never been near an industrial machine so I'm uncomfortable even considering putting one together correctly.
I had considered perhaps paying someone to assist with the setup, but the way I've been treated when simply enquiring about machines by local vendors has made me want to avoid this at all costs. The fact that I've spent months chasing after suppliers just trying to get a straight answer to "do you supply industrial leather sewing machines" has been punishment enough. 

The Sailrite options are lighter and therefore easier for me to assemble alone, and the customer support being in English/ always quick to respond removes a lot of my concerns.

Thanks again to everyone for their input. Lots of food for thought!  

Edited August 16, 2022 by Sam83

[Sam83]

Just a final thank you to everyone who helped me out!

After contacting the Sailrite team, I discovered that the Worker B motor doesn't run on 230V (the LSZ-1 with the regular motor does and I had confused the two options), so my only option is the Leatherwork machine. They even confirmed they can offer Express shipping! 

For the domestic machine for my cotton linings, I'm opting for the Janome HD 3000. I'm looking for an older/used option because it turns out that the motor on the current ones is weaker than it used to be. This should be far easier to get my hands on.

This is so far away from where I started, back when I though I would be able to get my hands on a Juki, but it feels like a good starting point for me so that I can practice and hone my skills whilst I live here. 

Thank you again for all the assistance and knowledge you've shared! I have learned so much from the discussion and am very grateful. 

[Wizcrafts]

2 hours ago, Sam83 said:

After contacting the Sailrite team, I discovered that the Worker B motor doesn't run on 230V (the LSZ-1 with the regular motor does and I had confused the two options), so my only option is the Leatherwork machine.

This just about makes it imperative that you order the Monster II balance wheel to improve the punching power. This balance wheel weighs 7 pounds.

[Sam83]

2 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

This just about makes it imperative that you order the Monster II balance wheel to improve the punching power. This balance wheel weighs 7 pounds.

Unfortunately, that particular balance wheel incompatible with the Leatherwork machine. The Leatherwork comes with a Power Plus balance wheel, which I'm hoping achieves the same result.