Looking for Input on Machine Choices

[Rubicon04]

Been saving for years to buy a sewing machine to mainly help with bag making. Have done so much research that making a decision now has become tough. Originally I was trying to purchase one machine to do it all, which I know is a tough order. Lately I have been contemplating getting 2 machines.

 

I had been set on getting a Cowboy CB4500 and fit it with @RockyAussie narrow needle plate set and run 138 thread through it for bag making.

 

The second machine I’ve recently started looking into it would be for lighter work, I am thinking canvas, 1000D cordura, and thinner leather / leather canvas combo products. This is where I am running into what machine would be good for this. Through my research I’ve come to the Juki 1541 & 1181N and the Consew 206RB 5. From what I’ve read all these machines should hand the thinner leather or canvas fine, but I was unsure about the 1000D cordura material.

 

Any guidance is appreciated. I will also be getting a bell skiver but haven’t decided on which company to purchase from yet.

[nylonRigging]

4 hours ago, Rubicon04 said:

The second machine I’ve recently started looking into it would be for lighter work, I am thinking canvas, 1000D cordura, and thinner leather / leather canvas combo products. This is where I am running into what machine would be good for this. Through my research I’ve come to the Juki 1541 & 1181N and the Consew 206RB 5. From what I’ve read all these machines should hand the thinner leather or canvas fine, but I was unsure about the 1000D cordura material.

Any guidance is appreciated. I will also be getting a bell skiver but haven’t decided on which company to purchase from yet.

  Your choices of 'lighter' 2nd machine choice . I have both RB and 1541 . Both good machines . Both will sew same as far as your 1000 den. or lighter weight. But both will easy sew threw multi-layers of urethane backed 1000 den. with #69/t-70 , Both lay down nice stitching. both have under-table bobbin load assembly .
 
 Between the two, RB feels smoother on sewing when you let it roll and punching . 1541 feels little different with tiny more 'lope' going into it's down-stroke when rolling . The 1541 has a double-tension disk setup, and the RB does not . 1541 will sew comfortably sew 138. just route the 138 over the other 2nd tension disk/change needle,  and sew .

1541.. I never tried, but 'I suspect' will do 207 on some materials with taking more time for setting it up proper . if can be done ? , then I sure someone here on this forum has done it .
.

[DonInReno]

8 hours ago, Rubicon04 said:

Through my research I’ve come to the Juki 1541 & 1181N and the Consew 206RB 5. From what I’ve read all these machines should hand the thinner leather or canvas fine, but I was unsure about the 1000D cordura material.

Those three machines will do just fine, but don’t overlook any of the other upholstery weight machines with triple feed.   An older Consew 206rb in good condition will every bit as smooth and capable.  Same with a Juki Lu-562 or Lu-563. 

As for the 1000d Cordura, 8 layers will sew easily even with 138.   Needle deflection is more problematic with thinner threads and needles, so don’t be surprised if you sew most things on the heavy side.  138 seems thick now, but for many projects it’s rarely overkill.  

There are a lot of synthetics in your future that you haven’t thought of yet - a trip to a big fabric store that caters to upholsterers will really be fun.   There are newer types of heavy nylon and polyester ripstop - some 1500d or even 2000d that are great choices over 1000d cordura.  1000d is the good reliable ordinary Toyota Camry, or F150, but the options are really fun to play with.   I’m lucky to have a local place that buys a wide variety of mill end materials in small random sizes - it’s the material left over after a run of commercially sewn items.

The vinyl coated polyester (vcp) is what the thickest commercial truck tarps are often made of and it makes a fantastic bottom for tool bags and other high wear and high strength areas.

There are all sorts of vinyl coated and non coated netting, from thinnest mesh like on a tennis shoe, to thick mesh like would be used on a catamaran that would get walked on.

Same for canvas - there are a huge variety from ordinary to ripstop to a dozen different weaves and treatments.

Then you’ll someday want to sew outdoor cushions and shades and there’s another whole category of material to choose from there from breathable to waterproof.

Then there  are the automotive fabrics, vinyls, carpet, leathers and all the secondary fabrics and materials that go along those.

You’ll probably want a smooth set of narrow feet and feed dog for leather sewing and a coarse aggressive set for canvas and cordura.   Many of us just keep what is essentially a zipper foot that allows sewing to the far left side of the presser foot for general purpose.  Big canvas and heavy fleece seams really benefit from a full size foot with long sloping nose to ride up and over thick seams.

Id recommend a big pair of high quality upholstery scissors, like Ginger 10”, that are only used for sewing - $70 well spent.

 

[kgg]

Through my research I’ve come to the Juki 1541 & 1181N and the Consew 206RB 5

I have both the Juki DNU-1541 "S" and the Juki DU-1181N. First off if you are looking at a 1541 pay the $100 difference and get the 1541 "S" as it has a safety clutch. The main difference is the 1541 is rated for V138 on top and in the bobbin while the 1181N is rated for V92 but I have on occasion used V138 and both use the same size "M" bobbin but with different bobbin cases. The 1181N does not have a safety clutch and is a walking foot machine while the 1541 is a triple feed machine. The 1541 is a physically heavier machine and can handle heavier materials. The Juki DU-1181N costs about $1400 US and the Juki DNU-1541S costs about $1800 US. I have found that the 1541S doesn't like thinner stuff and those items are best left to the 1181N.

You may want to check these video's on how the 1181N and the 1541S handle light, medium and heavy fabric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKJuKTrjsbw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JES-2I7h3o

This video will show the difference of the presser foot action on materials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elo3MeoOi5M

 

kgg

[Rubicon04]

6 hours ago, kgg said:

I have both the Juki DNU-1541 "S" and the Juki DU-1181N. First off if you are looking at a 1541 pay the $100 difference and get the 1541 "S" as it has a safety clutch. The main difference is the 1541 is rated for V138 on top and in the bobbin while the 1181N is rated for V92 but I have on occasion used V138 and both use the same size "M" bobbin but with different bobbin cases. The 1181N does not have a safety clutch and is a walking foot machine while the 1541 is a triple feed machine. The 1541 is a physically heavier machine and can handle heavier materials. The Juki DU-1181N costs about $1400 US and the Juki DNU-1541S costs about $1800 US. I have found that the 1541S doesn't like thinner stuff and those items are best left to the 1181N.

You may want to check these video's on how the 1181N and the 1541S handle light, medium and heavy fabric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKJuKTrjsbw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JES-2I7h3o

This video will show the difference of the presser foot action on materials.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elo3MeoOi5M

 

kgg

Thanks for links to those videos. I will definitely be watching them shortly. What are you thoughts on the 1541S and sewing nylon webbing for items like dog leashes and collars? 

Part of me is wondering how the cb4500 with the narrow plate setup and 138 thread would do with with the same nylon webbing for dog leashes and collars. 

[kgg]

43 minutes ago, Rubicon04 said:

sewing nylon webbing for items like dog leashes and collars? 

I think the 1541S would work but the CB4500 with the new narrow plate should also work well.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

1 minute ago, Rubicon04 said:

Thanks for links to those videos. I will definitely be watching them shortly. What are you thoughts on the 1541S and sewing nylon webbing for items like dog leashes and collars? 

Part of me is wondering how the cb4500 with the narrow plate setup and 138 thread would do with with the same nylon webbing for dog leashes and collars. 

I think that the 1541s is a perfect machine for dog collars and leashes. The safety clutch will save the machine from losing its timing when you accidentally jam the top thread in the shuttle. Our advertisers include industrial sewing machine dealers who sell Juki as well as their own clones of the 1541. They would setup the machine with the motor you want and set the hook distance properly for the needle and thread you will use the most. In the case of collars and leads, I think you'll want to use #138 bonded polyester thread (in colors to match the webbing) and a #22 or #23 round point titanium coated needle. You can get thread, extra bobbins, needles, oil, seam rippers, a swing-away edge guide or edge guide presser foot and thread snips at the same time and have everything there from the get go.

If you have an option to buy a speed reducer, think carefully. It permanently slows down the top speed by whatever factor the reducer is configured for. Once you get your confidence up, and have a reliable edge guide, you may not want to sit there chugging along at a top speed of 6 to 10 stitches per second. A servo motor with a small 2 inch pulley feeding a fairly large machine pulley will already have at least 2:1 reduction. That Juki might have 2.5:1 to 3:1 reduction because of its larger diameter machine pulley. If the motor maxes out at 3600 rpm, that means your top speed might only be 1200 rpm direct. This would translate into 20 stitches per second flat out. Add a 2:1 reducer and you'll max out at about 10 per second. A 3:1 reducer would max out at about 6 stitches per second and you'll be watching grass grow while sewing leashes!

The above advice is tailored to your statement that you want to sew webbing. If you decide to sew leather collars and leads, having a top speed under 10 per second will probably be all you'll want.

[Wizcrafts]

49 minutes ago, Rubicon04 said:

Part of me is wondering how the cb4500 with the narrow plate setup and 138 thread would do with with the same nylon webbing for dog leashes and collars. 

I do not recommend buying the cb4500 strictly for sewing webbing, unless it is going to be your only compound feed machine and you intend to sew dense leather goods too. The machine comes with a 3:1 reducer. The motor pulley is 2 inches and the machine pulley is 6 inches. It has 9:1 total reduction. The 3600 rpm motor will max out at 6.67 stitches per second, which is 1/2 of the machine's rated top speed. If you remove the reducer, or even get one with 2:1 reduction, the machine will shake a lot at top speed. 441 machines are not made to be run at high speed. Most of us who use them are sewing thick stacks of dense leather at a few stitches per second.

The narrow throat plate and feed dog from @RockyAussie works great when I have to sew thin or soft material or leather and use small needles and thread. The standard feed dog hole and throat plate slot are much too large and soft stuff gets pushed down inside them. Again, the cb4500 and all clones of the Juki TSC-441 are heavy leather stitchers for halters, harness, holsters, gun belts, and thick pouches and cases. They aren't spec'd for sewing under 6 ounces (3/32") thickness of firm leather. But, by all means buy one if you plan to sew any of these leather items! Just be prepared to deal with the very slow top speed.

I'd still go with the cb1541s if it was me, for sewing webbing, vinyl, banners or Sunbrella.

[Rubicon04]

5 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I do not recommend buying the cb4500 strictly for sewing webbing, unless it is going to be your only compound feed machine and you intend to sew dense leather goods too. The machine comes with a 3:1 reducer. The motor pulley is 2 inches and the machine pulley is 6 inches. It has 9:1 total reduction. The 3600 rpm motor will max out at 6.67 stitches per second, which is 1/2 of the machine's rated top speed. If you remove the reducer, or even get one with 2:1 reduction, the machine will shake a lot at top speed. 441 machines are not made to be run at high speed. Most of us who use them are sewing thick stacks of dense leather at a few stitches per second.

The narrow throat plate and feed dog from @RockyAussie works great when I have to sew thin or soft material or leather and use small needles and thread. The standard feed dog hole and throat plate slot are much too large and soft stuff gets pushed down inside them. Again, the cb4500 and all clones of the Juki TSC-441 are heavy leather stitchers for halters, harness, holsters, gun belts, and thick pouches and cases. They aren't spec'd for sewing under 6 ounces (3/32") thickness of firm leather. But, by all means buy one if you plan to sew any of these leather items! Just be prepared to deal with the very slow top speed.

I'd still go with the cb1541s if it was me, for sewing webbing, vinyl, banners or Sunbrella.

Thanks for the information on the 4500. The primary use for the 4500 is going to be for leather bag making with 138/207 thread. Probably average 2 to 3 layers of 5-6oz leather, sometimes thinner sometimes thicker. Would probably get used for belts as well. The nylon webbing talk is further ideas I have floating around in my head currently. 

[Rubicon04]

So just wanted to update this thread with where I'm headed. 

Pretty set on a Cowboy CB4500, more than likely from Bob @CowboyBob. I need to find some time to call him. 

I was not planning to get the accessory package with it and instead purchase the following:

• HE Precision #25 Xtreme Narrow Needle Plate & Feed Dog
• HE Narrow Presser Foot Set
• HE Left Presser Foot
• HE Lift Handle Extension
• Drop down roller edge guide - have not decided which one yet
• Needles - Schmetz 794 S NM 160 #23 & 24
• Needles - Schmetz 794 LR NM 160 #23 & 24
• Thread - Amann Serafil in Tex 135 & 210
• Extra Bobbins
• Flattop conversion from Toledo

Is there anything else I should look at ordering so I'm ready to get sewing right away? 

 

As for the other machines, I am pretty certain a Juki 1541S and a bell skiver will be my next in line. Probably a bell skiver first but it may be awhile since i am interested in the FAV AV2.  

[Burkhardt]

6 hours ago, Rubicon04 said:

So just wanted to update this thread with where I'm headed. 

Pretty set on a Cowboy CB4500, more than likely from Bob @CowboyBob. I need to find some time to call him. 

I was not planning to get the accessory package with it and instead purchase the following:

• HE Precision #25 Xtreme Narrow Needle Plate & Feed Dog
• HE Narrow Presser Foot Set
• HE Left Presser Foot
• HE Lift Handle Extension
• Drop down roller edge guide - have not decided which one yet
• Needles - Schmetz 794 S NM 160 #23 & 24
• Needles - Schmetz 794 LR NM 160 #23 & 24
• Thread - Amann Serafil in Tex 135 & 210
• Extra Bobbins
• Flattop conversion from Toledo

Is there anything else I should look at ordering so I'm ready to get sewing right away? 

 

As for the other machines, I am pretty certain a Juki 1541S and a bell skiver will be my next in line. Probably a bell skiver first but it may be awhile since i am interested in the FAV AV2.  

Something to consider is depending on the drop down guide are if the holes are in the machine and getting the bracket for it. I'm kind of on the fence about the table, I believe they might be on this site is the aluminum tops that have a fence that's adjustable that most people say is easier to take on and off than the wood one. I got the wood one then seen the other one is why.

[MedusaOblongata]

2 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

Something to consider is depending on the drop down guide are if the holes are in the machine and getting the bracket for it. I'm kind of on the fence about the table, I believe they might be on this site is the aluminum tops that have a fence that's adjustable that most people say is easier to take on and off than the wood one. I got the wood one then seen the other one is why.

Do you have a link to that aluminum top?

[Burkhardt]

13 hours ago, MedusaOblongata said:

Do you have a link to that aluminum top?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1165256487/aluminum-cylinder-arm-extension-table?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=cobra+class+4&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&bes=1&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

 

There are probably more do a search on them.

[kgg]

9 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1165256487/aluminum-cylinder-arm-extension-table?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=cobra+class+4&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&bes=1&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

Those table tops are for your LS-341 / LS-1341 and clone machines like the CB341 and Techsew 2750.

kgg

[Burkhardt]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

Those table tops are for your LS-341 / LS-1341 and clone machines like the CB341 and Techsew 2750.

kgg

There's a choice of machine drop down menu for a bunch of different machines.

[kgg]

5 hours ago, Burkhardt said:

There's a choice of machine drop down menu for a bunch of different machines.

I missed the one for the 441 class.

kgg

[Rubicon04]

@Uwe