Adler thread take-up arm question.

[Icho]

Hello everyone. Is there a way to adjust the timing of the take-up leaver on an Adler 269-373? I'm sure there must be but I can't see it and I don't see anything in the service manual. It definitely seems like there is a problem with mine because when the thread is looping around the bobbin shuttle, the leaver is pulling, causing the thread to "pop" as it comes around the shuttle. It has actually caused the thread to occasionally break. From what I found so far is that the take-up leaver should be at the top when the needle bar is at its highest point. That is not the case on my machine.

[Constabulary]

I would guess this rather is a hook timing problem but hard to tell from the distance.

[Icho]

3 hours ago, Constabulary said:

I would guess this rather is a hook timing problem but hard to tell from the distance.

The hook is where it should be on the needle and it sews without skipping. The take-up leaver just seems to be pulling way too soon to the point that I can see the slides, rods and bushings in the head stressing to get the thread past the bobbin shuttle. I'd bet the thread would break every time if I used smaller or weaker thread. 

The take-up arm doesn't reach the top until the needle bar is well into the down position. 

[CowboyBob]

56 minutes ago, Icho said:

The hook is where it should be on the needle and it sews without skipping. The take-up leaver just seems to be pulling way too soon to the point that I can see the slides, rods and bushings in the head stressing to get the thread past the bobbin shuttle. I'd bet the thread would break every time if I used smaller or weaker thread. 

The take-up arm doesn't reach the top until the needle bar is well into the down position. 

Have you tried adjusting the bobbincase opening finger? 

[Constabulary]

just came to my mind - maybe the safety clutch has tripped or one of the timing belt pulleys is loose / loose set screws or the timing belt is a few teeth off.

[Icho]

34 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

Have you tried adjusting the bobbincase opening finger? 

Yes. That was my first thought when I was setting up and tuning. I tried the settings from one extreme to the other and everything in between so I thought it was just the way it is. The other day I just realized that there is definitely something up with the take-up lever. The popping is happening just as it gets pulled to the farthest point and makes it over the right side of the shuttle. The take-up arm is already pulling it tight. I hope I'm explaining it clearly and correctly. 

[Icho]

Just now, Constabulary said:

just came to my mind - maybe the safety clutch has tripped or one of the timing belt pulleys is loose / loose set screws or the timing belt is a few teeth off.

This is actually causing the safety clutch to trip. I did slightly tighten up the safety clutch last night. In the past I had to take it apart because it was dirty and stuck. Now it works properly and I started out "softer" on it knowing I would have to create up on it until it is tight enough. The timing pulleys are definitely not slipping. 

[CowboyBob]

1 hour ago, Icho said:

Yes. That was my first thought when I was setting up and tuning. I tried the settings from one extreme to the other and everything in between so I thought it was just the way it is. The other day I just realized that there is definitely something up with the take-up lever. The popping is happening just as it gets pulled to the farthest point and makes it over the right side of the shuttle. The take-up arm is already pulling it tight. I hope I'm explaining it clearly and correctly. 

There is no takeup lever adjustment,but here is a set screw in the needlebar cam that could be loose,otherwise maybe your hook timing is slow causing the thread to not release off of the hook when it should.You want the opener to just open alittle & not be tight when it's pulling all the way counter-clockwise.

[Icho]

2 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

There is no takeup lever adjustment,but here is a set screw in the needlebar cam that could be loose,otherwise maybe your hook timing is slow causing the thread to not release off of the hook when it should.You want the opener to just open alittle & not be tight when it's pulling all the way counter-clockwise.

Those screws were tight but I did tried to loosen those screws to see if I can correct it that way but the only thing that did is change the needle height. I figured that was the only thing it would do but I tried anyway just in case there was some other geometry in there I wasn't seeing. I left it at that and figured I'd ask around in case I was missing anything else. I will adjust it back tonight and maybe take some videos of what is going on. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out how mechanical things work but this is messing with me. 

[CowboyBob]

11 minutes ago, Icho said:

Those screws were tight but I did tried to loosen those screws to see if I can correct it that way but the only thing that did is change the needle height. I figured that was the only thing it would do but I tried anyway just in case there was some other geometry in there I wasn't seeing. I left it at that and figured I'd ask around in case I was missing anything else. I will adjust it back tonight and maybe take some videos of what is going on. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out how mechanical things work but this is messing with me. 

This isn't an Adler but I pointed out the needlebar cam for you,should have 2-screws.

needlebar cam.pdf

[Icho]

32 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

This isn't an Adler but I pointed out the needlebar cam for you,should have 2-screws.

needlebar cam.pdf 777.89 kB · 1 download

I was looking at that on my machine and even came close to trying it out but I wasn't sure so I didn't touch it....yet. unless some other idea comes up I will go for it tonight. 

Just to verify,  at what point in the needle cycle should the take-up bar be at its highest point. From what I understand, needle and take-up leaver both max height at the same time. 

[CowboyBob]

Just to verify,  at what point in the needle cycle should the take-up bar be at its highest point. From what I understand, needle and take-up leaver both max height at the same time. 

It's fixed & the only way it could be off is if you have a loose screw in the needlebar cam causing it to vary,the one screw goes in a hole in the shaft.

But to answer your question when the takeup lever is all the way up the needlebar should be approx 6mm down from it's highest position .

[Icho]

47 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

Just to verify,  at what point in the needle cycle should the take-up bar be at its highest point. From what I understand, needle and take-up leaver both max height at the same time. 

It's fixed & the only way it could be off is if you have a loose screw in the needlebar cam causing it to vary,the one screw goes in a hole in the shaft.

But to answer your question when the takeup lever is all the way up the needlebar should be approx 6mm down from it's highest position .

When I get home from work, I will stare at it for a bit and check anything I can think of. Maybe even take a video  and go from there. I hope I am just missing something simple. 

[Icho]

So I uploaded my first video to YouTube. Sorry it's pretty bad but hopefully it shows what's going on. You can hear the ping when the thread gets past the farthest point around the bobbin case. The take-up arm starts pulling hard just before it reaches that point. I am turning the wheel bu hand. 

 

https://youtu.be/Amp5oKp6TXU

Edited February 6, 2023 by Icho

[Uwe]

It would be super useful to actually see the position of your take-up lever in your video. I know it’s tricky and I didn’t exactly do it in my video either.

It looks to me like you need to advance hook timing. In general, the thread needs to be at the farthest point on its travel around the hook precisely when the take-up lever is at its lowest point. The take-up lever is the master here, the hook timing is the adjustable element.

Below is a video of the stitch cycle on my Juki LS-341, which is a very similar design. The 1:34 mark my the video is when the thread take-up lever needs to be at it’s lowest position (although I failed to point that out in the video.) This is the still frame at that 1:34 mark::

When the thread take-up lever is at its top-most position, the hook tip should be at the Noon position.

The needle itself has no easy-to-reference position when the thread take up lever is at the very top or bottom.  

The hook timing can be advanced and retarded over a surprisingly wide range and it will still pick up the loop and make a stitch. However, the precise hook timing where everything comes together in buttery smoothness has a much smaller range.

 

[Icho]

2 hours ago, Uwe said:

It would be super useful to actually see the position of your take-up lever in your video. I know it’s tricky and I didn’t exactly do it in my video either.

It looks to me like you need to advance hook timing. In general, the thread needs to be at the farthest point on its travel around the hook precisely when the take-up lever is at its lowest point. The take-up lever is the master here, the hook timing is the adjustable element.

Below is a video of the stitch cycle on my Juki LS-341, which is a very similar design. The 1:34 mark my the video is when the thread take-up lever needs to be at it’s lowest position (although I failed to point that out in the video.) This is the still frame at that 1:34 mark::

When the thread take-up lever is at its top-most position, the hook tip should be at the Noon position.

The needle itself has no easy-to-reference position when the thread take up lever is at the very top or bottom.  

The hook timing can be advanced and retarded over a surprisingly wide range and it will still pick up the loop and make a stitch. However, the precise hook timing where everything comes together in buttery smoothness has a much smaller range.

 

Thanks for the info and video. I was looking for a video like that. I saved it so I can keep going back to it. I will go thru your write up and try advancing the timing to see how it works out. Here is a pic showing the moment the take-up arm starts moving up. I changed to red thread so that it is easier to see. To me it seems like the arm starts moving just a bit too soon. I feel that the tension created at that point is what is causing the the thread to pop around the farthest point around the case.

Update

I advanced the timing to the point where the take-up lever lifts closer to the correct hook position and the hook does not catch the thread because it is too far aadvanced.im pretty sure that if there was a separate adjustment for the lever, it would have been an easy fix. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Icho
Update

[Michiel]

I would look for a service manual and follow al the steps to set it up in the right order (so not try only to solve one problem but go trough the manual step by step)

by doing that you will and up with a well adjusted machine working like it was when it left the factory 

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/fileadmin/dag/Media/Downloads/269/S_269.pdf

[Icho]

4 hours ago, Michiel said:

I would look for a service manual and follow al the steps to set it up in the right order (so not try only to solve one problem but go trough the manual step by step)

by doing that you will and up with a well adjusted machine working like it was when it left the factory 

https://www.duerkopp-adler.com/fileadmin/dag/Media/Downloads/269/S_269.pdf

Been there done that. I used dial indicators and digital calipers among other precision tools. I'm actually a tool and die maker/designer so settingand measuringisthe easy. There is just no info on the take-up lever that i can see. 

[Uwe]

There is no separate adjustment for the take-up lever because the linkage to the main shaft is fixed and permanent. The movement of the take-up lever is fixed in relation to the movement of the needle bar, as is the case with most machines of this general class of machines. There is no mention of it in the service manual because there is nothing to adjust.

Can you please post some close-up pictures of precisely where the hook is when the needle is at the very bottom (BDC), and when the hook tip is directly next to the needle. You’ll have to remove the feed dog for this.

You will likely have to adjust the needle bar height when you advance the hook timing, to make sure the tip of the hook is in the sweet spot of the needle scarf when it needs to pick of the loop.

 

. 

[Icho]

17 minutes ago, Uwe said:

There is no separate adjustment for the take-up lever because the linkage to the main shaft is fixed and permanent. The movement of the take-up lever is fixed in relation to the movement of the needle bar, as is the case with most machines of this general class of machines. There is no mention of it in the service manual because there is nothing to adjust.

Can you please post some close-up pictures of precisely where the hook is when the needle is at the very bottom (BDC), and when the hook tip is directly next to the needle. You’ll have to remove the feed dog for this.

You will likely have to adjust the needle bar height when you advance the hook timing, to make sure the tip of the hook is in the sweet spot of the needle scarf when it needs to pick of the loop.

 

. 

I am at work so i won't be able to post any pics until later today but I did adjust the needle bar height after I advanced the timing. I also rechecked hook to needle clearance etc. Before I mention what I did next, here is a quick history on the machine. 

I bought it knowing it had timing issues and the price definitely reflected that. It needed a new gear set for the bobbin case which is crazy expensive but luckily I was able to get used along with a lot of other extras. I had lots of cleaning, oiling, replacing beat up screws, a couple stripped holes etc but I'm thru that. I have had most of the machine apart in the process. I am actually very comfortable getting into any part of it now. This is why I just went for it. 

So last night just before I ran out of time for the night I decided to move the tim belt a tooth...possibly 2. I then quickly re timed it and gave it a try. It is not perfect but definitely the best it's been. I am considering jumping 1 more tooth to see what happens. I couldn't do much more last night because it was getting late but thinking about it today, I am wondering if I should look more into the timing belt and checking if there are any marks on the gears that should be aligned. 

I will be back at it tonight and will add any relevant pictures. 

[Uwe]

On the Adler 269 the feed movement is generated from eccentrics on the top shaft. There is no synchronization required between top and bottom shaft and you will not find instructions for that in the service manual.

Moving the timing belt just changes hook timing. If you then re-time the hook, you’ll be exactly where you were before moving the timing belt. But very subtle changes in hook timing may have a noticeable effect. So you likely just timed the hook slightly differently, improving it.

It’s also possible, but unlikely, that your hook is not original to the machine. An aftermarket or seemingly compatible hook may “fit” the machine, but may have slightly different geometries (e.g. the distance between the tip of the hook and the base of the hook that pulls the thread around the hook assembly.)

I had a machine (Juki 563 clone) that exhibited the same snapping-around-the-hook problem. I thought that I had fixed it by moving the timing belt (and then re-timing the hook,) but later I realized that it was just the slightly different timing of the hook that finally made it run smoothly. (On that particular machine, moving the timing belt actually does change the feed timing, so I later reversed the timing belt move.)

Just for illustration here are the before and after videos of that machine from 2016. I hesitate to post this because the subtitles refer to the timing belt move as the apparent fix, which is incorrect.

The before video showing the thread snapping problem (which can also be described as a take-up-lever-pulls-up-too-early problem):

 

After advancing hook timing (and when I still thought this was fixed because of the timing belt move):

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Uwe

[Icho]

5 hours ago, Uwe said:

On the Adler 269 the feed movement is generated from eccentrics on the top shaft. There is no synchronization required between top and bottom shaft and you will not find instructions for that in the service manual.

Moving the timing belt just changes hook timing. If you then re-time the hook, you’ll be exactly where you were before moving the timing belt. But very subtle changes in hook timing may have a noticeable effect. So you likely just timed the hook slightly differently, improving it.

It’s also possible, but unlikely, that your hook is not original to the machine. An aftermarket or seemingly compatible hook may “fit” the machine, but may have slightly different geometries (e.g. the distance between the tip of the hook and the base of the hook that pulls the thread around the hook assembly.)

I had a machine (Juki 563 clone) that exhibited the same snapping-around-the-hook problem. I thought that I had fixed it by moving the timing belt (and then re-timing the hook,) but later I realized that it was just the slightly different timing of the hook that finally made it run smoothly. (On that particular machine, moving the timing belt actually does change the feed timing, so I later reversed the timing belt move.)

Just for illustration here are the before and after videos of that machine from 2016. I hesitate to post this because the subtitles refer to the timing belt move as the apparent fix, which is incorrect.

The before video showing the thread snapping problem (which can also be described as a take-up-lever-pulls-up-too-early problem):

 

After advancing hook timing (and when I still thought this was fixed because of the timing belt move):

 

I was kind of thinking that the belt just changes the timing but was also hoping it was a part of the problem. 

I can't say for sure if the hook is original or not but it I can tell it hasn't been recently replaced and does look to be in decent condition. 

I won't be able to mess with the machine until later in the evening but I did manage to take a few pictures. It is as I left it after getting pretty good stitches and less thread snap. The 1st pic is needle bar on bottom. 2nd pic is tip of hook at needle and I threw in a 3rd just as the take-up lever starts to lift. I hope they are at the angle you were looking for. 

[Icho]

Here is the 3rd 

[Moti]

Hi, so how is it over or resolved, I have a similar problem with Adler 269 - 73, I am very interested in how this problem is resolved

[Icho]

10 hours ago, Moti said:

Hi, so how is it over or resolved, I have a similar problem with Adler 269 - 73, I am very interested in how this problem is resolved

Not fully resolved yet but it is better than it was. I have a theory I want to test out but haven't had tome or motivation to mess with it for a while.