Vinegaroon: What's going on?

[ScottEnglish]

I'm having no success making vinegaroon. Whether I use steel wool or fine chips of steel after several days the metal doesn't seem to be dissolving in the distilled malt vinegar! What's going on?

Thanks.

Scott

Edited February 14, 2023 by ScottEnglish

[TomE]

Table vinegar covers a range of acetic acid concentrations.  Might need stronger acid and more time.  In the laboratory we used glacial (pure) acetic acid that was diluted with water.

[jrdunn]

I use just plain white vinegar with good results.  JM2C, Jim

[chuck123wapati]

probably not strong enough,  just use plain white vinegar. i use 0000 washed steel wool but even old nails will work. it takes a while just leave it sit and check it weekly. 

[jrdunn]

13 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

probably not strong enough,  just use plain white vinegar. i use 0000 washed steel wool but even old nails will work. it takes a while just leave it sit and check it weekly. 

+1 on that.  I read somewhere that a few hours will work.  I tried it.  It changed the color of the wood and leather but not as dark as it did after a week.

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks TomE. That makes sense. Thanks also to jrdunn and chuck123wapati for your comments.

[Doc Reaper]

I just started a half gallon, and by the 3rd day it turned the leather light gray. I used paint thinner to clean it, just swished two pads in a large bowl of paint thinner and hung them up to dry. I would of used water but the drying time was too long, paint thinner takes like 7 minutes!

I cut open the pads and then cut the opened pads into strips and plaved into white vinegar. Then I placed a 4 inch bolt on top  so the 0000 steel wool pads didn’t float to the top. Every couple of days I’ll use a piece of wood to knock the air bubbles from the steel wool pads and I’ll check it by dunking a small piece of veg tan in it.
It’s easier to spend a few dollars to make a black dye than it is to spend $45  on 32 ounces of FIEBINGS black oil dye that needs multiple coats and still leaves grayish white marks that can’t be hidden  with neatsfoot oil. 
 

Fiebings must be testing for a cheaper formula, over the last 12 years I have noticed the blotches getting more and more prominent. This last year has been the worst. I did call the company and was quickly dismissed by the manager/owner. It had to be the way I was applying it. I explained that I used dye pre, denatured alcohol, paint thinner, leather cleaner, and a few other items to remove what ever might be on the leather. I realized that I was broomed, which means I’m not the only one having this problem!

the Fiebings company ( like many others) is chasing a bottom line to make things cheaper. Due to the worlds “Build Back Better” plan to become a one world order = communism! I have a backbone to step up and stop this but I’m gonna need help world wide. DO NOT TURN IN YOUR GUNS !!! Folks it is time to mass with arms and use extreme force 

If you are one of the ones that have turned in your guns then use slings and arrows. The rich want you dead or enslaved so they can have free rein to do as they please. This includes making your children wards of the state!

Im done with my rant, but I guess Vinegaroon is a way to fight NWO, lol

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks Doc Reaper for explaining how you make vinegaroon.

I've had problems with dyeing too. It's proven costly, time consuming, and the results have been disappointing. Hence my interest in an alternative.

You might be interested in the thread I started entitled: Iron sulphate to colour leather black. You can buy iron sulphate, also known as sulphate of iron, from a garden centre.

Scott 

Edited February 15, 2023 by ScottEnglish

[Matt S]

If you want a similar effect without the hassle and guesswork of producing vinegaroon, dissolve iron sulphate in water and use that instead. Iron sulphate is sold for gardening purposes and a saturated solution has a very similar pH to veg tanned leather.

Or take Will Ghormely's approach and marinade your leather in a barrel of rusty water.

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks for your post Matt S. You're the unnamed forum member I mention in the thread I started entitled: Iron sulphate to colour leather black.

[Matt S]

32 minutes ago, ScottEnglish said:

Thanks for your post Matt S. You're the unnamed forum member I mention in the thread I started entitled: Iron sulphate to colour leather black.

Thanks Scott, hadn't seen that.  I have replied in that thread in order to keep discussions neater.

[Doc Reaper]

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

[Samalan]

5 hours ago, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

Doc I let mine sit for about two weeks for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, Samalan said:

for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

I read that advice a lot. What acidity levels are you getting, and what do you "neutralise" to? My experience is that vinegaroon can be of many different pHs (acidity levels). Veg tanned leathers are acidic with an average pH around 3 from the tannery, which I presume to be the "correct" pH for best longevity. Basic/caustic conditions are well recognised as being just as detrimental to leather as excessively acidic ones. This also matches my experience -- when I first tried vinegaroon I followed the common "neutralisation" advice with baking soda and "burned" the leather, cracking almost immediately whilst uncoloured pieces from the same hide went years without cracking.

I did some informal testing and found that for the leathers I use washing the 'rooned leather in plain water brought the pH back very close to its "tannery fresh" level, while washing in a baking soda solution raised the pH significantly. I have found that pieces so treated don't tend to crack like those I have washed in baking soda.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Matt S

[Samalan]

3 hours ago, Matt S said:

I read that advice a lot. What acidity levels are you getting, and what do you "neutralise" to? My experience is that vinegaroon can be of many different pHs (acidity levels). Veg tanned leathers are acidic with an average pH around 3 from the tannery, which I presume to be the "correct" pH for best longevity. Basic/caustic conditions are well recognised as being just as detrimental to leather as excessively acidic ones. This also matches my experience -- when I first tried vinegaroon I followed the common "neutralisation" advice with baking soda and "burned" the leather, cracking almost immediately whilst uncoloured pieces from the same hide went years without cracking.

I did some informal testing and found that for the leathers I use washing the 'rooned leather in plain water brought the pH back very close to its "tannery fresh" level, while washing in a baking soda solution raised the pH significantly. I have found that pieces so treated don't tend to crack like those I have washed in baking soda.

Thanks, Matt I did a belt one time It was a ton of work lots of stitching, and a lot of time washed it after the roon with baking soda way too much soda the belt looked like it was 500 years old it was unusable LOL now. not sure what ph levels I had  but  thank you for the information if I ever use roon again I'll be sure to check the ph levels for sure I did another job with roon and it didn't crack thank God  but I will say I used a lot of water washing it after the roon that was about 4 years ago and it's still fine shit luck on that one if that one had cracked I'm not sure what I would have done. I'll show a pic of that one you will see why I would have left town or something or maybe jumped off a bridge lol.

10 hours ago, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

Doc I let mine sit for about two weeks for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

[Gosut]

On 2/16/2023 at 1:38 AM, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

A newbie question:

Isn't vinegaroon is iron (II) acetate? Doesn't that mean that the issue is more the percentage of acetic acid than the type of vinegar? Just checked a cheap bottle of white vinegar, and it's labeled as 5% (by volume?) acidity. So that would be 5% acetic acid. Wouldn't any vinegar with 5% acidity with the same amount of iron yield the same amount of iron (II) acetate under the same conditions?

Iron (II) sulfate was known as copperas due to the green color, and was / is used to make iron gall ink. Iron sulfate reacts with the tannins in oak call to produce an ink that darkened over time. Some iron gall ink also ate holes in paper due to excess acidity, but paper isn't leather. Anyway, it sounds like both ferrous acetate and ferrous sulfate reacts with tannic acid to produce black.

[MarlinDave]

One thing I found was taking a stick or piece of plastic and place it in the jar to keep the steel wool submerged in the vinegar. This somewhat keeps the solution clear and less messy. At least 3 days to start, 6 months is better. Filter it through a coffee filter before using. Don't overthink it. 

[Klara]

3 hours ago, Gosut said:

So that would be 5% acetic acid. Wouldn't any vinegar with 5% acidity with the same amount of iron yield the same amount of iron (II) acetate under the same conditions?

I would think so, unless the "other stuff" in special vinegar (like balsamico) interacts with the formation of iron (II) acetate. The interesting thing is that vinegar comes in different strengths, I one bought 5 litres "special conserves" with 10 % acidity (for dyeing protein fibres). I suspect that would work even better for making vinegaroon....

[Doc Reaper]

It’s been a few days, the steel wool is now floating freely. An old bolt will no longer hold the cut up steel wool to the bottom., it kinda like floating dust with no real structure. The 2 second dip turns the leathe medium gray,  neatsfoot turned it black. I’ll check back in a week

[Doc Reaper]

Today is a full 7 days the 0000 steel wool has been bathing in white vinegar, the initial 2 pads no longer exist. The leather is dipped for 4 to 5 seconds and allowed to dry. It’s turning a dark blueish gray. When neatsfoot oil is applied the leather turns black.  Added 15 ounces of vinegar and one more steel wool pad. At present time I have used a full 60 ounces of white vinegar and 3 of the 0000 steel wool pads, I’ll test it in four days.

[Burkhardt]

23 hours ago, Doc Reaper said:

Today is a full 7 days the 0000 steel wool has been bathing in white vinegar, the initial 2 pads no longer exist. The leather is dipped for 4 to 5 seconds and allowed to dry. It’s turning a dark blueish gray. When neatsfoot oil is applied the leather turns black.  Added 15 ounces of vinegar and one more steel wool pad. At present time I have used a full 60 ounces of white vinegar and 3 of the 0000 steel wool pads, I’ll test it in four days.

Is that the import veg from SLC? I have nightmares thinking about dying that leather.