Vinegaroon: What's going on?

[Matt S]

32 minutes ago, ScottEnglish said:

Thanks for your post Matt S. You're the unnamed forum member I mention in the thread I started entitled: Iron sulphate to colour leather black.

Thanks Scott, hadn't seen that.  I have replied in that thread in order to keep discussions neater.

[Doc Reaper]

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

[Samalan]

5 hours ago, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

Doc I let mine sit for about two weeks for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

[Matt S]

1 hour ago, Samalan said:

for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

I read that advice a lot. What acidity levels are you getting, and what do you "neutralise" to? My experience is that vinegaroon can be of many different pHs (acidity levels). Veg tanned leathers are acidic with an average pH around 3 from the tannery, which I presume to be the "correct" pH for best longevity. Basic/caustic conditions are well recognised as being just as detrimental to leather as excessively acidic ones. This also matches my experience -- when I first tried vinegaroon I followed the common "neutralisation" advice with baking soda and "burned" the leather, cracking almost immediately whilst uncoloured pieces from the same hide went years without cracking.

I did some informal testing and found that for the leathers I use washing the 'rooned leather in plain water brought the pH back very close to its "tannery fresh" level, while washing in a baking soda solution raised the pH significantly. I have found that pieces so treated don't tend to crack like those I have washed in baking soda.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Matt S

[Samalan]

3 hours ago, Matt S said:

I read that advice a lot. What acidity levels are you getting, and what do you "neutralise" to? My experience is that vinegaroon can be of many different pHs (acidity levels). Veg tanned leathers are acidic with an average pH around 3 from the tannery, which I presume to be the "correct" pH for best longevity. Basic/caustic conditions are well recognised as being just as detrimental to leather as excessively acidic ones. This also matches my experience -- when I first tried vinegaroon I followed the common "neutralisation" advice with baking soda and "burned" the leather, cracking almost immediately whilst uncoloured pieces from the same hide went years without cracking.

I did some informal testing and found that for the leathers I use washing the 'rooned leather in plain water brought the pH back very close to its "tannery fresh" level, while washing in a baking soda solution raised the pH significantly. I have found that pieces so treated don't tend to crack like those I have washed in baking soda.

Thanks, Matt I did a belt one time It was a ton of work lots of stitching, and a lot of time washed it after the roon with baking soda way too much soda the belt looked like it was 500 years old it was unusable LOL now. not sure what ph levels I had  but  thank you for the information if I ever use roon again I'll be sure to check the ph levels for sure I did another job with roon and it didn't crack thank God  but I will say I used a lot of water washing it after the roon that was about 4 years ago and it's still fine shit luck on that one if that one had cracked I'm not sure what I would have done. I'll show a pic of that one you will see why I would have left town or something or maybe jumped off a bridge lol.

10 hours ago, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

Doc I let mine sit for about two weeks for the best result don't forget to neutralize the acid as soon as your done with the roon.

[Gosut]

On 2/16/2023 at 1:38 AM, Doc Reaper said:

It’s been a few days and I’m getting a gray color from a one or two second dip with scrap leather. I did use white vinegar but I will try the apple cider vinegar as well. I’m also going to use the iron sulphate to see it’s out come

This is the first time I have made Vinegaroon and I’m about out of black pro dye

A newbie question:

Isn't vinegaroon is iron (II) acetate? Doesn't that mean that the issue is more the percentage of acetic acid than the type of vinegar? Just checked a cheap bottle of white vinegar, and it's labeled as 5% (by volume?) acidity. So that would be 5% acetic acid. Wouldn't any vinegar with 5% acidity with the same amount of iron yield the same amount of iron (II) acetate under the same conditions?

Iron (II) sulfate was known as copperas due to the green color, and was / is used to make iron gall ink. Iron sulfate reacts with the tannins in oak call to produce an ink that darkened over time. Some iron gall ink also ate holes in paper due to excess acidity, but paper isn't leather. Anyway, it sounds like both ferrous acetate and ferrous sulfate reacts with tannic acid to produce black.

[MarlinDave]

One thing I found was taking a stick or piece of plastic and place it in the jar to keep the steel wool submerged in the vinegar. This somewhat keeps the solution clear and less messy. At least 3 days to start, 6 months is better. Filter it through a coffee filter before using. Don't overthink it. 

[Klara]

3 hours ago, Gosut said:

So that would be 5% acetic acid. Wouldn't any vinegar with 5% acidity with the same amount of iron yield the same amount of iron (II) acetate under the same conditions?

I would think so, unless the "other stuff" in special vinegar (like balsamico) interacts with the formation of iron (II) acetate. The interesting thing is that vinegar comes in different strengths, I one bought 5 litres "special conserves" with 10 % acidity (for dyeing protein fibres). I suspect that would work even better for making vinegaroon....

[Doc Reaper]

It’s been a few days, the steel wool is now floating freely. An old bolt will no longer hold the cut up steel wool to the bottom., it kinda like floating dust with no real structure. The 2 second dip turns the leathe medium gray,  neatsfoot turned it black. I’ll check back in a week

[Doc Reaper]

Today is a full 7 days the 0000 steel wool has been bathing in white vinegar, the initial 2 pads no longer exist. The leather is dipped for 4 to 5 seconds and allowed to dry. It’s turning a dark blueish gray. When neatsfoot oil is applied the leather turns black.  Added 15 ounces of vinegar and one more steel wool pad. At present time I have used a full 60 ounces of white vinegar and 3 of the 0000 steel wool pads, I’ll test it in four days.