Scrap Leather Thoughts

[bruce johnson]

      There have been some recent posts that Id like to share my thoughts and opinions on. This is just that - my personal thoughts. Take it for what is it worth and if you can use it - great. If not, write it off as a rant. Pricing leatherwork is not easy. When people ask about pricing, they have crossed a line. Gone from hobby to business (registered or under the radar, we are not the business police here). Grandma might give away her knitting she does for fun, but as soon as she sells a little and people ask for more - she's in it for some measure of money now. Break-even, coffee money, Disneyland trip, help a little with mortgage payments, quit your day job - there is probably room for everyone. There are complicated pricing formulas that work, some that don't. Not many simple formulas work. I made every mistake you can make and sometimes on a big scale. Some people here know my story, some don't and doesn't matter. That is not my intent here to be all knowing on pricing. I am only going to focus on one factor and that is leather.  Realistically, leather is the cheapest part of anything you make if you have to value your time, tools, and other materials. 

   Leather costs and scrap. Scrap is NOT free just because it is scrap. If you bought a side then you  paid exactly the same amount for every square inch piece of flank as you did for every square inch piece of back or butt. You might not like the flank and should have bought a bend, but that flank or belly was paid for just the same. Figure out a place to use it with a "purpose for it's properties".  (not an original quote). Then account for the real cost of it when you use it.  You might be surprised what can be done. My late first wife took little end cuts off headstall pieces - 1/2 or 5/8 by 1" sometimes, stamped a random flower center impression or some small geo stamp impressions, put an eyelet in and a small split ring - instant designer zipper tabs. Even with chemo she might do 4-6 an hour when she felt like it. Sold them for $8-10,  little beaded inlay took longer - $20. I was mainly doing strap work and personal stuff then with the occasional saddle and scrap was never an overflowing problem. My wife now started with 4" coasters, clicked out my saddle scrap and stamped simple designs on decent leather, on the crappy pieces glued some hair-on hide. At that point I was still building saddles, rope bags and cans, and she ran me totally out of scrap. Called my supplier and bought her rugged sides and second grade hair-on hides to keep up with those orders at the time. Point is, money was made and materials from either scrap or supplier pay their own way. I'd say don't fall into the trap of the scrap is just scrap and not account for it. Go into it with the idea that is has the same value and you will make "Profits From The Scrap Bin" Another not original quote - used to be regular feature in the Leather Crafters Journal. 

. 

[SteveOz]

I like to make watch straps, so my scraps are tiny. I tend to be as frugal as I can with leather so I end up with some small but useful pieces for practicing on. These can be really useful for testing edge finishes, sharpened tool tests, stitching and padding trials as well. Unlike Bruce's late wife I'm not making money from it directly, but I am in a way saving some money from not ruining a sellable product by testing something on it that may go very wrong.

[SUP]

@bruce johnson that is eye-opening, for newbies like me, especially. It is not a rant at all. You are perfectly right that we have paid for every inch of the leather, scrap or otherwise and  I admire your late first wife who was so talented and imaginative at using up every last bit, even through the pain of illness. Very inspiring. Thank you for this post. 

 

[BigBore]

Really good post and thoughts. I agree wholeheartedly. 

[TomE]

My day job mucking stalls and making/taking care of foals keeps getting in the way of starting a leathercraft business from my hobby.  However, the dream lives on.  I use scrap to practice construction and finishing techniques, and in the process figure out what I'm good at and what I enjoy.  I bought a larger splitter with plans to make small bags and cases from bridle side leftovers.

[Tugadude]

Bruce, we are truly blessed to have folks like yourself, willing to share their wisdom on this forum.  It is one of the reasons I keep coming back.  

Most of us are here because we love the craft and love sharing that love with likeminded people.  Some of us make money, but many probably never will.  But all of us can learn from experienced and passionate people like you.

Thanks Bruce!

[chuck123wapati]

Good job Bruce very well worded, i even keep my scrap thread it cost the same too and can be used for small stuff such as sewing belt loops or holding thing together temporarily.  I was taught as a young un to be frugal from my folks who just happened to grow up during the depression. We didn't waste much as a family and I still don't. 

[Gezzer]

Ain't I the odd duck here ? My scrap is free in that if after buying a  B side of H O for $ 260.00 ( about $11.00 a sf / $ .95 a square inch ) I haven't paid for that in projects , I need a new hobby . I am sure if I made a living from leather I would feel different  but even then I wouldn't charge my butcher the same for scrap as for top line leather .I know I wouldn't want to pay the same price for stew meat as prime rib !  

 

To each his own after all the man that paid  for whatever has the final say .

[chuck123wapati]

10 minutes ago, Gezzer said:

Ain't I the odd duck here ? My scrap is free in that if after buying a  B side of H O for $ 260.00 ( about $11.00 a sf / $ .95 a square inch ) I haven't paid for that in projects , I need a new hobby . I am sure if I made a living from leather I would feel different  but even then I wouldn't charge my butcher the same for scrap as for top line leather .I know I wouldn't want to pay the same price for stew meat as prime rib !  

 

To each his own after all the man that paid  for whatever has the final say .

i used to think that until chicken wings became so popular lol now they cost more than breast.

I think he is looking at this through the butchers eyes, the butcher buys a side of beef he then doesn't throw the scraps away just because he paid for the beef with the prime ribs. he sells them for a different cut, even sells the bones for the marrow. 

In essence the butcher pays the same price for both scrap and prime rib  but sells at different prices. like buying a half of a hide its not all the same quality of leather all over. 

[Gezzer]

9 hours ago, bruce johnson said:

       Go into it with the idea that is has the same value 

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

i used to think that until chicken wings became so popular lol now they cost more than breast.

I think he is looking at this through the butchers eyes, the butcher buys a side of beef he then doesn't throw the scraps away just because he paid for the beef with the prime ribs. he sells them for a different cut, even sells the bones for the marrow. 

In essence the butcher pays the same price for both scrap and prime rib  but sells at different prices. like buying a half of a hide its not all the same quality of leather all over. 

 

My point exactly , butcher pays x $ per pound . He knows that some cuts will be worth more and charges accordingly  . No one is talking about throwing out scrap leather just how to value it .

[chuck123wapati]

2 minutes ago, Gezzer said:

 

No one is talking about throwing out scrap leather just how to value it .

 then your not the odd duck. 

i must have read a different thread sorry. 

[AlZilla]

1 hour ago, Gezzer said:

Ain't I the odd duck here ? My scrap is free in that if after buying a  B side of H O for $ 260.00 ( about $11.00 a sf / $ .95 a square inch )

If you value the scrap at zero, then the portion you used cost more than you paid overall.

Academic anyway, if you're not selling your items.

[Handstitched]

To me scrap = $$$ . Its up to me to turn that scrap into $$ ....if I had the time..  

I used to give scrap away for free, not any more, now that I've realised the  true value of it, now that the cost of a DB or DS or a side  has gone through the roof...now .

Look around your workshop, how  much scrap can you see? ...and how much could it be worth if you had the time to turn it into $$ ??  whether it be a key ring, ear ring, book mark,  a small purse,  a little leather thing-a-me-bob , or whatever ?  Coming up with creative  ideas  concentrates the mind....apparently  . Each and every day I'm looking for ideas for doing just that.  I might follow up on  a few ideas  later. 

Well done Bruce  I am one of those individuals that turned a hobby into a business.  In case anyone asks,  it hasn't diminished the enjoyment of working with leather one single bit . If anything , its enhanced it . I am now taking on projects that I would never have thought of. My profile does state ' challenging projects' after all     

HS

[SUP]

A bit late in the thread. but these days, whenever I cut any leather, I try to keep the edges intact. Since I normally cut as near the edge of the larger leather as I can anyway, I get some thin, long sections, too thin to make belts or straps. If I get a continuous one, it's great. Else I just sit with scissors and cut them into long strips - lace I suppose, but not particularly well done, since they are not really long enough to use as lace for anything that I make and are usually the  edges, so not smooth or clean enough in texture. But, I use these strips of long and short laces to tie just about anything that needs tying in the house, from leather rolls, to .packets of food to bread packets to even my hair at a pinch. We rarely use thread any more. 

Also, while cutting repeated pieces, I try to keep areas in between to some symmetry so that I can then make keychains or zipper tags with those pieces. Just been making loads of keychains for gifts for dozens of people, so thought of that. Key chains are an unexpected bonus, almost automatically formed and less headache of wondering what to do with all the small pieces left behind! Also, if I cut really close, I still get that lace anyway, the lace that I use for tying. This I guess everyone does but I thought to mention it anyway.

[hmrambling]

I'm just getting started as a hobby. I've been practicing on small pieces from a bag of scraps. I've been using tools I had around the house and practicing hand sewing. If your scraps have no value to you, they certainly would prove valuable to others. I've made tiny little journals and a minimalist cardholder wallet with scraps. Occupied an entire weekend with scraps alone.

[Dwight]

I generally do the key fob thing with my scraps . . . 

If it's too small for a key fob . . . I don't have much else I can do with it . . . but thanks Bruce . . . the zipper pull thing I never thought of . . . basically because I don't use them.

Never have big enough scrap for coasters . . . except for one job that I did 3 times last year . . . and hung on to the 1st two sets of pieces . . . they'll turn into something some day.

Like every one else mentioned . . . thanks Bruce . . . we need your expertise.

May God bless,

Dwight

[toxo]

On 6/6/2023 at 5:29 AM, bruce johnson said:

      There have been some recent posts that Id like to share my thoughts and opinions on. This is just that - my personal thoughts. Take it for what is it worth and if you can use it - great. If not, write it off as a rant. Pricing leatherwork is not easy. When people ask about pricing, they have crossed a line. Gone from hobby to business (registered or under the radar, we are not the business police here). Grandma might give away her knitting she does for fun, but as soon as she sells a little and people ask for more - she's in it for some measure of money now. Break-even, coffee money, Disneyland trip, help a little with mortgage payments, quit your day job - there is probably room for everyone. There are complicated pricing formulas that work, some that don't. Not many simple formulas work. I made every mistake you can make and sometimes on a big scale. Some people here know my story, some don't and doesn't matter. That is not my intent here to be all knowing on pricing. I am only going to focus on one factor and that is leather.  Realistically, leather is the cheapest part of anything you make if you have to value your time, tools, and other materials. 

   Leather costs and scrap. Scrap is NOT free just because it is scrap. If you bought a side then you  paid exactly the same amount for every square inch piece of flank as you did for every square inch piece of back or butt. You might not like the flank and should have bought a bend, but that flank or belly was paid for just the same. Figure out a place to use it with a "purpose for it's properties".  (not an original quote). Then account for the real cost of it when you use it.  You might be surprised what can be done. My late first wife took little end cuts off headstall pieces - 1/2 or 5/8 by 1" sometimes, stamped a random flower center impression or some small geo stamp impressions, put an eyelet in and a small split ring - instant designer zipper tabs. Even with chemo she might do 4-6 an hour when she felt like it. Sold them for $8-10,  little beaded inlay took longer - $20. I was mainly doing strap work and personal stuff then with the occasional saddle and scrap was never an overflowing problem. My wife now started with 4" coasters, clicked out my saddle scrap and stamped simple designs on decent leather, on the crappy pieces glued some hair-on hide. At that point I was still building saddles, rope bags and cans, and she ran me totally out of scrap. Called my supplier and bought her rugged sides and second grade hair-on hides to keep up with those orders at the time. Point is, money was made and materials from either scrap or supplier pay their own way. I'd say don't fall into the trap of the scrap is just scrap and not account for it. Go into it with the idea that is has the same value and you will make "Profits From The Scrap Bin" Another not original quote - used to be regular feature in the Leather Crafters Journal. 

. 

Nice post Bruce. I think it was more a homage to your late wife than anything else and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good thing. As far as pricing goes, leather is one of those things that is all things to all people so some enjoy the pottering, some enjoy the challenge, some just like being constructive. The list is infinite. I'm fortunate in that, being retired I can get an idea in my head and go and try it out in my "shop" (spare bedroom). Occasionally I make something, I might even sell something now and then but when it comes to "pricing", the man who came up with the phrase "A fool and his money are soon parted" had me in mind because I've always believed in having the right tool for the job and so I've just pulled the trigger on another sewing machine. That's three now plus the 801 skiver plus the Lucris clicker press plus the two arbor presses plus the laser engraver plus plus plus. Now factor in the cost of the components, leather, findings etc etc and it doesn't take a genius to work out that the idea of making any money is just silly. As far as scrap is concerned I find it really useful for setting up the sewing machine because I like to do different things and so have to change thread/needle size etc all the time and it's good to test on similar material before starting a new project.

[Mulesaw]

In an old German saddler book, the author specifically writes about utilizing scraps.

All sorts of scrap that are to small or to bad to be used for anything else should be put into an iron pot and carbonized by heating this pot over the fire till it is burnt. The burnt leather is then mashed while in the pot, and when it has cooled off, it is finely ground. 

The carbonized leather is (according to the author) sold to knife makers and instrument makers, And they use it for hardening fine steel. 

I am pretty sure that the hardening process he is referring to is called "case hardening". You fill a steel box with the carbonized leather and put the item to be hardened into it. put a lid on it all and heat it all to red hot. Keep the heat for a couple of hours. That will cause carbon to infuse the surface of the steel to be hardened so you get a higher carbon content and you can then harden it like normally.

I have no idea if anybody still does this since nowadays you can easily get steel with a defined carbon content in. I guess it wasn't quite as easy in 1908. But anyway that is a suggested use of the final remnants of scrap according to the book "Das Sattler, Riemer und Täschner Handwerk" by K. Vollmer

Personally I try to use my small scraps for belt keepers and stuff like that. But I think that I could do better. I might have to look into making some key rings.

[Mablung]

9 hours ago, Mulesaw said:

In an old German saddler book, the author specifically writes about utilizing scraps.

All sorts of scrap that are to small or to bad to be used for anything else should be put into an iron pot and carbonized by heating this pot over the fire till it is burnt. The burnt leather is then mashed while in the pot, and when it has cooled off, it is finely ground. 

The carbonized leather is (according to the author) sold to knife makers and instrument makers, And they use it for hardening fine steel. 

I am pretty sure that the hardening process he is referring to is called "case hardening". You fill a steel box with the carbonized leather and put the item to be hardened into it. put a lid on it all and heat it all to red hot. Keep the heat for a couple of hours. That will cause carbon to infuse the surface of the steel to be hardened so you get a higher carbon content and you can then harden it like normally.

I have no idea if anybody still does this since nowadays you can easily get steel with a defined carbon content in. I guess it wasn't quite as easy in 1908. But anyway that is a suggested use of the final remnants of scrap according to the book "Das Sattler, Riemer und Täschner Handwerk" by K. Vollmer

Personally I try to use my small scraps for belt keepers and stuff like that. But I think that I could do better. I might have to look into making some key rings.

That sounds a bit like a step in the carbon infusion process for creating Wootz steel, described in another thread about round knives.  That's interesting.

[Mulesaw]

14 hours ago, Mablung said:

That sounds a bit like a step in the carbon infusion process for creating Wootz steel, described in another thread about round knives.  That's interesting.

I had to look up Wootz steel, and it sure does sound a bit like it. 
I Googled case hardening yesterday after my post, and it is still done. An example could be a sprocket for a gearbox, where you machine it almost completely. Case harden it, complete the machining and harden it. It should leave you with a hard outershell and a robust core. But if carbon from leather is better than say powdered carbon from charcoal - that I don't know :-)

 

[fredk]

On 1/19/2024 at 7:47 AM, Mulesaw said:

All sorts of scrap that are to small or to bad to be used for anything else should be put into an iron pot and carbonized by heating this pot over the fire till it is burnt. The burnt leather is then mashed while in the pot, and when it has cooled off, it is finely ground. 

The secret here is to roast the scraps not to burn them

[Mulesaw]

51 minutes ago, fredk said:

The secret here is to roast the scraps not to burn them

Agreed, actually the German text is a bit vague. He describes that the pot should be heated to red hot, but that would cause the leather to burn, unless you had put a tight fitting lid on to prevent any air from entering. And he doesn't mention the lid.
I don't know if anyone still does this case hardening on a small scale. But apart from the atrocious smell of roasted leather, it could be an interesting experiment.

[NatesLeatherGds]

I second Bruce's thoughts. Scrap is not just scrap. I paid for it so will use it, either for testing or selling. My best use of scrap so far are these. 5 slit punches, "braided" finished with a ring or other at the end. Depending on how much coffee I've had and if I'm awake enough, I can do it in 15 minutes or so. Sold 4 or 5 - between 12$ and 15$ at fairs - 50-60$ - not a lot of money - but its half a hide -- on scrap alone. With the bags and other going for 65-100 -- well, suddenly scrap is a big player in my production costs and helps turn a "profit". Anyhow - my 2cents. 

[Garyak]

There’s money in scrap

[Handstitched]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:53 PM, fredk said:

The secret here is to roast the scraps not to burn them

Burnt leather smells horrific   

Reading this thread, its has inspired me to change tact. With the scraps , I've been making little key rings( or dingle dangles)  that some like to hang off a bag, zipper tag etc.  , using  small wad punches around 20 -25 mm. Quickly  & simply  stamped,Dyed assorted  colours I sell them for a just $2 ea . Sold quite a few. Small key rings are cheap by the 100 .  But I've decided to make them random shapes. Not everything has  to be nice neat and round. 

1 hour ago, Garyak said:

There’s money in scrap

An old ' Ye Old English' saying " theres brass in muck " 

HS