How much to charge for your leather goods?

[chuck123wapati]

18 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

One thing I often wonder when I see discussions like this is does the average consumer even do their homework?

 

lol yea they do but now the new way is to look at reviews which could or couldn't be accurate as we have all seen, or you can google any dozens of best whatever for 2023 sites written and driven by college types who do nothing but create blogs for products to attach links that pay their wages for working at home(sitting on their asses). Most are copy and pasted blurbs from the products own sites while the writer has absolutely no real life experience of the product. And you can do this for hours or until you puke without actually learning a damn thing about the product, finally giving up and just buying something usually because the shipping is free. I feel the internet  has been taken over by mega conglomerates that drive most searches right back to their products.

[ToddW]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

One thing I often wonder when I see discussions like this is does the average consumer even do their homework?  Do they take the time to peruse other maker's websites to compare quality and pricing?  I wonder.

its all about price and what they want..  if they want a nice product that is expensive.. they will shop around.. If they are looking for something cool and special, they will shop around.. if its something simple, they will just go to Amazon and buy it expecting to throw it away if its breaks.. Kinda like Harbor Freight and tools..  I have bought a many of $9 grinders on special expecting to through it away..  Crappy Chinese tool?? Yes.. did I buy it knowing its a crappy product?  Yes..  Could I have bought a Dewalt?? Yes..

People view of nice is also very wide.. as a Leather worker, you know what nice is.. the average consumer doesn't know top grain, full grain..  pot metal hardware, stainless hardware..  All they know is if it looks good to them.. 

[Tugadude]

3 minutes ago, ToddW said:

its all about price and what they want..  if they want a nice product that is expensive.. they will shop around.. If they are looking for something cool and special, they will shop around.. if its something simple, they will just go to Amazon and buy it expecting to throw it away if its breaks.. Kinda like Harbor Freight and tools..  I have bought a many of $9 grinders on special expecting to through it away..  Crappy Chinese tool?? Yes.. did I buy it knowing its a crappy product?  Yes..  Could I have bought a Dewalt?? Yes..

People view of nice is also very wide.. as a Leather worker, you know what nice is.. the average consumer doesn't know top grain, full grain..  pot metal hardware, stainless hardware..  All they know is if it looks good to them.. 

I could be wrong but I don't think the sort of folks that will pay $175.00 for a leather belt are shopping at Harbor Freight.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I do think we need to be realistic. 

There's a fairly well-known leather wallet maker who apparently sells a lot of product and to me, the pricing is well above the value.  I'm not going to give any more details because it isn't important who it is, just that it is an example.  But, and there's always a but, he has cultivated a following of sorts, a customer base and he likely gets repeat business and word of mouth referrals.  His product is certainly unique.  I can imagine when you pull the wallet out, some will ask about it.  I would never criticize him for his pricing.  He makes a product, puts a price on it and then the consumer evaluates it and purchases it.  Both are happy.  Works for me.  

Now, if the person were to buy the product and find that it wasn't what they expected and/or they felt mislead or something, now we have a problem.  

That doesn't seem to be the case.

There always are and will always be companies that successfully sell a product for way more than makes sense.  Rolex is one, Hermes is another.  Not picking on them, they just came to mind.  

[Frodo]

it takes a total of apex 3 hours to make a belt

materals to make a belt

are 20 for the leather

10

for consumables

 

that $30

 if you bend over for the pressure and sell your belts for $40  you are accepting $3.33 an hour for your labor and zero for your overhead 

 

You will not be in business long

[TomE]

I am enjoying the collective wisdom and experiences of the commenters (commentators?) in this thread.  Lots of good insights.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

[chuck123wapati]

24 minutes ago, Frodo said:

it takes a total of apex 3 hours to make a belt

materals to make a belt

are 20 for the leather

10

for consumables

 

that $30

 if you bend over for the pressure and sell your belts for $40  you are accepting $3.33 an hour for your labor and zero for your overhead 

 

You will not be in business long

it couldn't have taken over 15 minutes to make that plain 115 dollar belt shown on the site, with almost no technical leather knowledge or experience.

pre dyed pre cut strap and a clicker press.

 

[Klara]

21 hours ago, SUP said:

Websites can be created and maintained without much expense. See, WordPress and AEM are two of several  Content Management Systems...

But who creates the content? As @ToddW says, perfect photos and well-written texts are essential and don't come cheap. Either in money, or in time, if you do it all yourself (few - if any  - people have equal skills in leatherwork, photography, writing, IT and social media).

So I really couldn't say whether the prices on tannergood's site are "fair" regarding their overhead. Neither do I know whether they actually sell at these prices. I do know that I wouldn't pay them...

[Klara]

14 hours ago, Frodo said:

it takes a total of apex 3 hours to make a belt

Not the simple ones. I've seen Seb make them: Cut a strap from the hide (already dyed and finished), square off one end, punch the hole for the buckle prong, rivet the buckle to the end, cut and rivet a keeper (no skiving), wait for a customer, measure the belt on them, cut off the surplus (free hand), punch the holes. About 10 minutes altogether, mostly done during the market while waiting.

 

[Handstitched]

 

14 hours ago, TomE said:

I am enjoying the collective wisdom and experiences of the commenters (commentators?) in this thread.  Lots of good insights.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

Yup  ...and I've run out of peanuts, doh !! 

HS

[Frodo]

25 minutes ago, Klara said:

Not the simple ones. I've seen Seb make them: Cut a strap from the hide (already dyed and finished), square off one end, punch the hole for the buckle prong, rivet the buckle to the end, cut and rivet a keeper (no skiving), wait for a customer, measure the belt on them, cut off the surplus (free hand), punch the holes. About 10 minutes altogether, mostly done during the market while waiting.

 

Yes Ms klara you are 100% correct

if you are using pre died leather that is pre cut and burnished

I guess I a just an old fart ‘cause burnishing by hand (most events do not have power)  would gobble up that 10 minutes.  Some people do not burnish I dunno why but thats ok

hey Gimmie some of that popcorn stop being stingy

[chuck123wapati]

16 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I could be wrong but I don't think the sort of folks that will pay $175.00 for a leather belt are shopping at Harbor Freight.  I'

lol you would be surprised, every morning i go to Walmart the lot is about half full of $300,000.00 motor homes, they camp there for free, use the shitters in the morning so they don't stink up their rides then buy their food and drive on to the next one. Some rich folks are just as cheap as the rest of us.

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Klara said:

But who creates the content? As @ToddW says, perfect photos and well-written texts are essential and don't come cheap. Either in money, or in time, if you do it all yourself (few - if any  - people have equal skills in leatherwork, photography, writing, IT and social media).

So I really couldn't say whether the prices on tannergood's site are "fair" regarding their overhead. Neither do I know whether they actually sell at these prices. I do know that I wouldn't pay them...

does the consumer care how much the advertising costs or if the maker can or cant do it themselves? should they be expected to pay more for a belt because a person chooses to have a higher overhead, due to that makers perceived needs of better advertising than the next guy?

 

[chuck123wapati]

17 hours ago, Tugadude said:

I could be wrong but I don't think the sort of folks that will pay $175.00 for a leather belt are shopping at Harbor Freight.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I do think we need to be realistic. 

There's a fairly well-known leather wallet maker who apparently sells a lot of product and to me, the pricing is well above the value.  I'm not going to give any more details because it isn't important who it is, just that it is an example.  But, and there's always a but, he has cultivated a following of sorts, a customer base and he likely gets repeat business and word of mouth referrals.  His product is certainly unique.  I can imagine when you pull the wallet out, some will ask about it.  I would never criticize him for his pricing.  He makes a product, puts a price on it and then the consumer evaluates it and purchases it.  Both are happy.  Works for me.  

Now, if the person were to buy the product and find that it wasn't what they expected and/or they felt mislead or something, now we have a problem.  

That doesn't seem to be the case.

There always are and will always be companies that successfully sell a product for way more than makes sense.  Rolex is one, Hermes is another.  Not picking on them, they just came to mind.  

I believe i know of whom you speak. He has a good hustle, it s an honest hustle and he does it well. He doesn't really sell the wallets so much as he sells a perceived "minimalist" way of life. But he makes that clear and his wallets are exactly what he says they are. 

[jrdunn]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

lol you would be surprised, every morning i go to Walmart the lot is about half full of $300,000.00 motor homes, they camp there for free, use the shitters in the morning so they don't stink up their rides then buy their food and drive on to the next one. Some rich folks are just as cheap as the rest of us.

Where is that "like" button?

[Tugadude]

Last comment on this.  Branding is something that you either get or you don't.  You can purchase a great "polo" shirt at a discount store for $25.00 or a similar one with a genuine "Polo" , Ralph Lauren logo on it for 2 to 3 times the price.  And then you hope someone notices it when you walk in the room.  That is something that has always existed and always will.  Call it "putting on airs" or what you will.  

But there are also genuine reasons why some folks are drawn to a brand.  And they will often pay more for it.  I do it myself.  There are two, small "mom and pop" brands that I'm a big fan of.  One is a soap company, the other is a watch company.  I just dig the owners and what they are trying to do.  They are growing their businesses while providing great value to their customers.  Both are growing through repeat business and the word of mouth of happy customers.  I can get the products cheaper elsewhere, but choose not to.  Makes me feel good to be part of their success even if they don't notice me.  I don't think I'm alone in this.  Not everyone buys the cheapest stuff they can.  At least not all the time, or for everything they buy.  Not when it matters.  

Things only need to make sense to the consumer.  There's lots of examples I could cite where I question why people do what they do.  In the end it really doesn't matter.  They'll keep on doing it regardless.

 

Edit:  This is really, really the last comment on this.  

When it comes to pricing, what are you competing with and what do you HOPE to be competing with?  Are you just selling a leather wallet?  Folks, especially the uneducated ones, can buy those all day long for pennies.  Or are you selling your brand, which just happens to be on a wallet.  There's a difference.  Some will pay for the brand, even if it is on a lesser quality product.  Because it has the brand.  

So when you market your goods are you building a brand, or are you just offering commodities, with no differentiation whatsoever?  Your choice.  

Seems to me those who build a brand often yield greater profit margins.  

Edited June 9, 2023 by Tugadude

[Doc Reaper]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I believe i know of whom you speak. He has a good hustle, it s an honest hustle and he does it well. He doesn't really sell the wallets so much as he sells a perceived "minimalist" way of life. But he makes that clear and his wallets are exactly what he says they are. 

I know of only one guy, he rocks at what he does, and I personally would hangout with him because he is a real craftsman and an artist. I see this discussion here is an awesome one. Each of us are craftsmen in our own right (except for the hangouts and pokers with sticks) some of you have seen what another member is fully capable of and we are happy that they are there. If we all agreed on what a particular item should cost then all those items would be identical to the guy that makes em cheaper, leather is not cheap by any means. A set price forces artistic flair to diminish and things become plain and boring. There is a guy that hawks this site, copies items he sees us creat and mass produced that item and he is willing to cut his own throat just so his item is the only thing selling. What a trooper! 
    I was with a customer in my shop, he was wanting saddle bags with a distinct pattern around a tooled character. I told him that I would get it on paper to get his approval and I’d get him a tight ballpark on price. All through this discussion was a young guy taking in the full conversation, but he remained silent and left when I was done with the customer. The following weekend that young guy shows back up with a set of saddle bags that he made and designed just by listening to my conversation with my customer, who happened to be in the shop. My customer purchased those saddle bags from that young guy for $180 and told me to build the ones we had also discussed, a handful of weeks later and I had that customer back in the shop to pick up the bags I built. He had the bags in hand that he got from the young guy, who was also in the shop. Upon comparison it was like holding a Yugo up next to a fully tricked out Abrams tank. The young guy was embarrassed by his efforts to compete with my skills. My customer was blown away just by the craftsmanship, and the artwork was at a whole other level. The young guy stated that it was the difference between a kindergartener and a van Gogh. And yes I charged an obscene amount for my efforts. My customer gave the young guys bags to his daughter that was just starting out riding. Plus the customer stated that he wanted a full set (made a tool bag and a travel bag that slept 4) the young guy became a puppy wanted to learn. 
   What to charge has so many variables that one could start by basic and customary charges but then there are charges that make upgrades what they are. Cheap copycats will always be there! But quality will be there till the end of time

[Klara]

20 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

does the consumer care how much the advertising costs or if the maker can or cant do it themselves? should they be expected to pay more for a belt because a person chooses to have a higher overhead, due to that makers perceived needs of better advertising than the next guy?

 

The customer does not care about the cost of the advertising, but they sure care about the quality. The maker must care about overhead - including the cost for advertising - and factor it into the pricing or he or she will not stay in business. 

If you buy online from a professional-loking website, you'll pay for this website. Or you can take your chances on Etsy. Or you can go to your local arts and crafts market - if there is one - and hope to find there what you are looking for. You may find very similar products in all three places, but probably not at the same price. 

[chuck123wapati]

3 hours ago, Klara said:

The customer does not care about the cost of the advertising, but they sure care about the quality. The maker must care about overhead - including the cost for advertising - and factor it into the pricing or he or she will not stay in business. 

If you buy online from a professional-loking website, you'll pay for this website. Or you can take your chances on Etsy. Or you can go to your local arts and crafts market - if there is one - and hope to find there what you are looking for. You may find very similar products in all three places, but probably not at the same price. 

 

Sometimes they don't care about either, sometimes they care to much about one or the other obviously in this case from the comments not many are willing to pay for his website and advertising at 115 bucks for a strap and buckle so there is a curve which is the point i'm making people will pay for it to a limit.

 So my maybe my question should be how much overhead are people willing to pay for a product or be expected to pay? How much should they be expected to pay for your inability to set up your web site your self all of it , part of it? 

You see we are all consumers personally I don't care what your advertising costs, as you pointed out, that's your problem and I'm not going to pay an exorbitant amount for it. For example I don't and wont buy NIKE tennis shoes, why because they are over priced simple and to the point I am not going to buy their brand just because they have cool commercials on tv. Now they are a BRAND name highly regarded and successful so how much do you think I'm willing to pay unknown Joe Blow for his website and advertising? On the other hand a lot of people do buy from them so are they wrong for being so high priced? is Joe Blow wrong for doing the same thing? Simply put the bottom line is i can buy them at their price or choose not to no matter the reasoning behind any of it.

Now get this the web has thrown us another curve in the quandary, your product can be hated and boycotted instantly due to your political or personal views of life. No other reason, quality doesn't matter, cost doesn't matter, truth doesn't matter any more. What matters is the buzz word you use or the pronoun you use. 

[chuck123wapati]

22 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Last comment on this.  Branding is something that you either get or you don't.  You can purchase a great "polo" shirt at a discount store for $25.00 or a similar one with a genuine "Polo" , Ralph Lauren logo on it for 2 to 3 times the price.  And then you hope someone notices it when you walk in the room.  That is something that has always existed and always will.  Call it "putting on airs" or what you will.  

But there are also genuine reasons why some folks are drawn to a brand.  And they will often pay more for it.  I do it myself.  There are two, small "mom and pop" brands that I'm a big fan of.  One is a soap company, the other is a watch company.  I just dig the owners and what they are trying to do.  They are growing their businesses while providing great value to their customers.  Both are growing through repeat business and the word of mouth of happy customers.  I can get the products cheaper elsewhere, but choose not to.  Makes me feel good to be part of their success even if they don't notice me.  I don't think I'm alone in this.  Not everyone buys the cheapest stuff they can.  At least not all the time, or for everything they buy.  Not when it matters.  

Things only need to make sense to the consumer.  There's lots of examples I could cite where I question why people do what they do.  In the end it really doesn't matter.  They'll keep on doing it regardless.

 

Edit:  This is really, really the last comment on this.  

When it comes to pricing, what are you competing with and what do you HOPE to be competing with?  Are you just selling a leather wallet?  Folks, especially the uneducated ones, can buy those all day long for pennies.  Or are you selling your brand, which just happens to be on a wallet.  There's a difference.  Some will pay for the brand, even if it is on a lesser quality product.  Because it has the brand.  

So when you market your goods are you building a brand, or are you just offering commodities, with no differentiation whatsoever?  Your choice.  

Seems to me those who build a brand often yield greater profit margins.  

Did you ever read about Edward Bernays? and the "torches of freedom"? 

[Tugadude]

6 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Did you ever read about Edward Bernays? and the "torches of freedom"? 

No, but I just did.  Interesting.

[Klara]

19 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

So my maybe my question should be how much overhead are people willing to pay for a product or be expected to pay?

If there was a simple answer to that, there wouldn't be a lot of university courses on the subject and having a successful business would be easier.

Incidentally, I've never bought a Nike product either, but I wouldn't exclude it if I needed something in a running shoe which they did better than other companies. And sadly, I do find myself clicking on the bought ads and positions in Google, Amazon, Etsy and co., simply because it's easy and convenient and I don't always want to spend hours searching for what I need. 

I do draw the line long before $ 114 for a simple belt, though. But I can because I know where to get very similar quality for one third of the price... If somebody is looking for a quick gift, money doesn't really matter and they don't want to do a lot of research, I can see them buying from this website. And I wouldn't call them stupid for it, nor would I begrudge the company the income.

 

[GrampaJoel]

I don’t care so much about the prices.
But the quality for the price is what caught my eye.

here’s a photo from the site. $125.00 wallet reduced to $75.00.

notice the three areas I have arrowed. Stained thread on front of the wallet.
Splitting where the card slots meet the edge.

Messed up sewing on inside at the card slot edges.

I guess it expect more quality for $125.., or even marked down to $75.00.

Joel

 

..