Wat kind of leather knife is this?

[DieselTech]

36 minutes ago, SUP said:

@Klara Damascus knives stay very sharp for longer too. I had heard that and when I came across one in a flea market, I bought it -  a chef's knife (at least, I think it is) that  I got for a song - I thought that it would probably be fake but it is not. I had it sharpened when I bought it and those characteristic, wavy lines stay all through; that does not happen with fakes.  I use it for everything (other than leatherwork) and it is still as sharp as ever. I got it a while ago and by this time, most knives usually show some amount of dulling with household use where I always forget to strop it. That in itself I think, would be a good reason to buy a Damascus knife for leather cutting but I guess a Damascus round knife will be prohibitively expensive. 

However, most of the Damascus knives we see around are not made in the traditional way, it appears. I looked up the processes and many say they stack and weld different metals but not much folding and stretching is done during forging, so the characteristic pattern is not created. That is why many of them etch the pattern and mention this as well.

The original way, makes those patterns naturally which is why they are irregular and such knife makers cannot guarantee a specific pattern.

That stretching and folding makes the metal strong and flexible which will be useful in swords but not in chef's knives or even, indeed, round knives. But the multiple types of metal probably contributes to the hardness and enduring sharpness of the edges. So even adopting only part of the process, these knife makers probably provide good knives, for their specific uses, at a more reasonable price. Win-win all around, I should think. @DieselTechif you do get a damascus round knife from crosswindsforge.com, could you put it up here? Would love to know how it works out.

I would love some input from people who make knives and are in the know about all these techniques. I might be wrong because the places I looked at might not give the correct information either. 

Maybe I should not hijack this thread and start a new one instead.

I'm sorry @DieselTech.

 

Lol no worries here! I like all input regardless of what it might be about. 

Yeah there is just something about Damascus, that is almost mesmerizing. 

I'll keep you all posted if I decide I can afford the Damascus half round knife. 

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

@Klara Damascus knives stay very sharp for longer too. I had heard that and when I came across one in a flea market, I bought it -  a chef's knife (at least, I think it is) that  I got for a song - I thought that it would probably be fake but it is not. I had it sharpened when I bought it and those characteristic, wavy lines stay all through; that does not happen with fakes.  I use it for everything (other than leatherwork) and it is still as sharp as ever. I got it a while ago and by this time, most knives usually show some amount of dulling with household use where I always forget to strop it. That in itself I think, would be a good reason to buy a Damascus knife for leather cutting but I guess a Damascus round knife will be prohibitively expensive. 

However, most of the Damascus knives we see around are not made in the traditional way, it appears. I looked up the processes and many say they stack and weld different metals but not much folding and stretching is done during forging, so the characteristic pattern is not created. That is why many of them etch the pattern and mention this as well.

The original way, makes those patterns naturally which is why they are irregular and such knife makers cannot guarantee a specific pattern.

That stretching and folding makes the metal strong and flexible which will be useful in swords but not in chef's knives or even, indeed, round knives. But the multiple types of metal probably contributes to the hardness and enduring sharpness of the edges. So even adopting only part of the process, these knife makers probably provide good knives, for their specific uses, at a more reasonable price. Win-win all around, I should think. @DieselTechif you do get a damascus round knife from crosswindsforge.com, could you put it up here? Would love to know how it works out.

I would love some input from people who make knives and are in the know about all these techniques. I might be wrong because the places I looked at might not give the correct information either. 

Maybe I should not hijack this thread and start a new one instead.

I'm sorry @DieselTech.

 

i make a few knives and your right about most of it. Damascus knives stay sharp longer but require much more work when they get dull. the reason for this is that they temper it to be very hard steel. There are dozens of new age ways to make Damascus but not many compare to the original technique. The process originally came about to make not so good steel into really good steel that was both flexible and strong. We don't have to do that now we have good steel and other ways to do that.

For a round knife it isn't needed at all but it does look cool, it wont make your work better but you can lay it next to your projects in photos for interest and folks will think your an expert or somethin.

What you want in a good round knife IMO is a straight grind blade in 1095, d2 or something tempered easy to sharpen but still hold a good edge. Its not so much the steel type but the temper and grind that makes a good knife. Last variable of all is some folks like a hard blade that wears a long time some folks like an easy to sharpen blade so you will get different answers.

[Mablung]

I've got some great fixed blade knives in pattern-welded Damascus. If I could get a round knife from the manufacturer, I totally would. It's well stretched and folded together, based on the manufacturer's literature and videos, and with a little elbow grease to get the bevel set, it sharpens to a mirror polish like a dream. Holds the edge well, too. You know, I might ask them if they could make one to the pattern of my Al Stohlman knife; it'd be way better than the poorly-heat-treated D2 that knife uses...or I could make one out of a billet of their steel, since the company sells billets...hmmmmmm...

Edited January 3, 2024 by Mablung

[dikman]

Strictly speaking it's not "Damascus", the correct term is pattern-welded blades. These were developed in several countries and as Chuck said were originally intended to make high-quality steel go further by mixing with poorer quality iron. This was the reasoning behind Viking swordmaking. It can be argued that the zenith of this process was reached by the Japanese with their forging skills. They combined softer steel to give flexibility and a shock-absorption backing to their extremely hard cutting edges. 

The original "Damascus" blades were actually made from Wootz steel, a crucible steel that was made by melting the iron in sealed crucibles containing wood/ leather etc, which provided the carbon to create steel. This process provided a more homogenous uniform structure to the steel but could still provide a pattern when etched. This Wootz steel was made primarily in India and imported by various places, including Damascus, to make blades. One or two modern knifemakers have experimented with making Wootz steel but it's far easier to forge pattern-welded blades from modern metals.

[Mablung]

Ironically, then, "Damascus" steel isn't truly "Damascus," either, insomuch as it didn't originate in Damascus. It does share the same pattern, though, and it sounds like all forms of "Damascus" steel share the feature of pattern-welding techniques being the basis of their manufacture, and the pattern comes out through acid etching (which also occurs through patina of high-carbon steels developed through use). Personally, I've always found the insisted distinction between "pattern-welded" and "Damascus" silly for that reason. I think it's a distinction without a real, meaningful difference. I get that someone may point to the great flex of "true Damascus" as opposed to "pattern-welded". The same response applies, however, because the degree of flex is a function less of pattern-welding/Damascus manufacture in and of themselves but of using specific kinds of pattern-welding techniques and combinations of steels and other materials to highlight certain characteristics. All steel flexes to some degree. Sword blades need to more than others, and the necessary flex can be achieved using steels not made according to the Damascus method. The importance is less the Damascus method and more the materials. The Damascus method did so more cheaply, yes, I understand that, so it had some advantages that made it desirable, and the patterns look sexy.

But it's still pattern-welded, just by different means than people use today to create patterned mixtures of steels with certain characteristics. So, I don't like the distinction because it seems to me emphasize differences that are not innate to the materials or the process of combining metals to make the patterns and produce the desired properties. Viewed in that light, "Damascus" and "pattern-welded" mean the same thing.

Okay, rant over. To those who still maintain there's a meaningful distinction, feel more than free to make the distinction. I can be a pedant with the best of them (or, depending on one's perspective, worst), so I have great respect for all pedants. I just think this distinction is overly and needlessly pedantic. Please, for the love of all things good, do not let this turn into the M&G debacle. I just wanted to vent my annoyance at what I think is a needless but harmless distinction that doesn't make real sense (to me) to insist upon.

[Mablung]

You know, was just reading something indicating Wootz steel was actually a form of particle metallurgy, not a means of pattern-welding, as I thought.  So, I may need to stick my foot in my mouth over this one; that will have to wait for tomorrow.  But, figured I'd throw that out there, since I probably made a few eyes roll, and may have proven the maxim from the Book of Proverbs, "It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and prove one's foolishness."

As I think about it, I think I do need to walk back my rant about the two methods of manufacture being essentially the same; they aren't.  But, given that true Damascus was a particle steel, I wonder what would happen if one were to etch currently popular particle steels, like the S30V a couple of my knives are made from.  Interesting question.

Then there's the point the article I read made, which is that it's not clear why "Damascus steel" is called that, with one theory being it was a derivative of the Arabic word for water, "damas," and that being applied because of the wavy appearance of Damascus steel.  That makes me wonder if my rant against pedantry still has some basis, albeit on different grounds, but that is a question for tomorrow.

Edited January 4, 2024 by Mablung
Sticking my foot in my mouth.

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, Mablung said:

You know, was just reading something indicating Wootz steel was actually a form of particle metallurgy, not a means of pattern-welding, as I thought.  So, I may need to stick my foot in my mouth over this one; that will have to wait for tomorrow.  But, figured I'd throw that out there, since I probably made a few eyes roll, and may have proven the maxim from the Book of Proverbs, "It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and prove one's foolishness."

As I think about it, I think I do need to walk back my rant about the two methods of manufacture being essentially the same; they aren't.  But, given that true Damascus was a particle steel, I wonder what would happen if one were to etch currently popular particle steels, like the S30V a couple of my knives are made from.  Interesting question.

Then there's the point the article I read made, which is that it's not clear why "Damascus steel" is called that, with one theory being it was a derivative of the Arabic word for water, "damas," and that being applied because of the wavy appearance of Damascus steel.  That makes me wonder if my rant against pedantry still has some basis, albeit on different grounds, but that is a question for tomorrow.

nothing would happen to  s30v if you etched it unless maybe you clay tempered it the Hamon might show up. I've done one blade with that technique and it didn't appear very well.  the difference is one is a lost art done by master craftsmen who spent a life time learning how. the other is done by just about anyone who can weld, buy a forge and power hammer and can get high carbon steel they have no idea where or how it was made lol. A lot of modern "Damascus" is simply steel cable forge welded so not a lot of learning involved in the process. Get it the right color, hammer , repeat.

 I love the look of the blades made from whatever you want to call it and have a couple myself but i also cant tell any difference in how they perform over a regular  blade forged and tempered to the same hardness. Its use is a matter of looks now days not so much for flex and strength. here is some interesting info along these lines.https://knifewear.com/blogs/articles/the-truth-about-damascus-steel

[Mablung]

19 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

nothing would happen to  s30v if you etched it unless maybe you clay tempered it the Hamon might show up. I've done one blade with that technique and it didn't appear very well.  the difference is one is a lost art done by master craftsmen who spent a life time learning how. the other is done by just about anyone who can weld, buy a forge and power hammer and can get high carbon steel they have no idea where or how it was made lol. A lot of modern "Damascus" is simply steel cable forge welded so not a lot of learning involved in the process. Get it the right color, hammer , repeat.

 I love the look of the blades made from whatever you want to call it and have a couple myself but i also cant tell any difference in how they perform over a regular  blade forged and tempered to the same hardness. Its use is a matter of looks now days not so much for flex and strength. here is some interesting info along these lines.https://knifewear.com/blogs/articles/the-truth-about-damascus-steel

I guess the lack of prevalence of fighting with swords obviates the need for very strong but flexible steel of the type. The knives I have are probably just prettier than others of similar steel. Still, I like it. It's snazzy. Sometimes, that's enough. 

Anyway, enough of my thread hijack.